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0.7-0.8% in most places. Income tax is much lower there though, on a $150k salary, we'd pay about $50k in tax and you'll pay about $30k. I think this thread would applaud Texas's progressive stance toward taxing the land owning class instead of the working class (they have zero state income tax).
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Apr 29, 2015 15:43
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I think it's funny how Baby Point - an expensive upscale neighborhood in western Toronto is downwind of the Humber wastewater treatment facility.
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Apr 29, 2015 15:45
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Jan posted:That's what you get for being financially responsible. For shame. From what he said, it was priced at 189-thousand with an assessment of 230-thousand. The initial price was artificially low (WAY LOW) to get the sale done quickly. This isn't uncommon and there an approximate zero chance the house would have sold ~20% below assessed value. The other buyers aren't likely to be in financial straits either. I don't have the final sale price, but it's probably not more than 260-thousand. Assuming the winning bidder is a statistically average Winnipegger, their median household income is a little north of 70-thousand or about 50-thousand after tax. Even with a bare-minimum five per cent as a down payment, that's just over 20 per cent of gross/just under 30 per cent of net family income as a mortgage payment. That's entirely workable, and even a lower-than-median household could afford that.
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Apr 29, 2015 15:46
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Twerk from Home posted:What's property tax like in Canada? All of this just blows my mind, the ~3% effective property tax rate in Texas means that even with homestead exemptions my coworkers are paying ~$20k property taxes per year on their ~$700k houses. I just can't imagine throwing away that much money. That's what happens when you tax land to pay for schools and police, instead of a ~20% federal VAT. I think land tax is a little over 100€/person and year in Germany, about 10B total while VAT is >400B/yr. Which system is better is an interesting question.
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Apr 29, 2015 15:55
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Kraftwerk posted:I think it's funny how Baby Point - an expensive upscale neighborhood in western Toronto is downwind of the Humber wastewater treatment facility. BLOOR WEST VILLAGE!, Close to Subway!, Priced to Sell!, Close to Bloor St! (Ukrainians love this) sauer kraut posted:That's what happens when you tax land to pay for schools and police, instead of a ~20% federal VAT. Consumption taxes are very unpopular in North America. Our working class couldn't survive without drastic increases to wages.
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Apr 29, 2015 15:55
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mastershakeman posted:Also the zero down payment, although it's unclear if they cross collateralized other properties. I think they must have, you're not able to get a 0% down mortgage in Australia anymore, not from anywhere actually reputable anyway, and it says they went to their bank, which would have to follow the 5% minimum down rule.
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Apr 29, 2015 16:39
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High property taxes aren't useful because during a real estate boom a lot of low income elderly homeowners are forced to sell their house due to their property taxes skyrocketing while their pension remains unchanged.
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Apr 29, 2015 16:58
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Property taxes made sense in a 50-80's world were bubbles and crashes weren't a thing but in the current climate they are toxic.
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Apr 29, 2015 17:05
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Property taxes (at least in Alberta) are levied by the municipality, with the province adding a chunk to the total in the form of education taxes. If you want an effort post about how taxes are actually put together I could probably do that over my lunch break. e: Xoidanor posted:Property taxes made sense in a 50-80's world were bubbles and crashes weren't a thing but in the current climate they are toxic.
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Apr 29, 2015 17:08
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cowofwar posted:High property taxes aren't useful because during a real estate boom a lot of low income elderly homeowners are forced to sell their house due to their property taxes skyrocketing while their pension remains unchanged. Xoidanor posted:Because it can literally force people out of their homes due to others speculation. I was under the impression the property tax is adjusted each year based on assessed value. If everybody's house goes up 30%, everybody still pays the same because their value in relation to other properties is the same. If just your house doubled in value your taxes would go up, but it doesn't matter if your place is 150k or 2.5m as long as it's keeping track with the greater market. e: http://vancouver.ca/home-property-development/land-assessment-averaging.aspx less than three fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Apr 29, 2015 |
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Apr 29, 2015 17:30
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Baudin posted:How so? Because it can literally force people out of their homes due to others speculation.
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Apr 29, 2015 17:34
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Xoidanor posted:Because it can literally force people out of their homes due to others speculation. That is not how property taxes work. E: I'll explain more fully in about an hour or so.
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Apr 29, 2015 17:35
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We're talking an annual tax on the net worth of the property right...?  If it's capital gains, yeah you're right.
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Apr 29, 2015 17:36
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Here's my experience with property tax in Toronto. For what it's worth in the last 10 years or so the "value" of my home has increased more than 2.5 times. The property taxes have probably gone up a grand or so, from 2200 to about 3100 in the same time. You can ask in general what property taxes are like in Canada, but rates and strategies are vastly different depending on the specific location. The last assessment I received from the city for my home was comically below what the house is "worth". Additionally, dense areas like Toronto generally have lower property taxes than waste of space and resources bedroom communities. Toronto has been very careful with regard to property taxes and instituted a land transfer tax to leverage the real estate churn in the hot market rather than raising quickly across the board, this is quite likely due to the fact that there are indeed many old people who own homes that are worth a million plus now on land value alone, but they are relatively cash poor and could not afford higher taxes. The truth is that if Toronto could hold onto a greater fraction of the taxes paid by its residents our problems would be immediately over, money and infrastructure wise. Alas, there is a highway in New Brunswick that needs building, or something. Saltin fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Apr 29, 2015 |
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Apr 29, 2015 17:43
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less than three posted:I was under the impression the property tax is adjusted each year based on assessed value. If everybody's house goes up 30%, everybody still pays the same because their value in relation to other properties is the same. If just your house doubled in value your taxes would go up, but it doesn't matter if your place is 150k or 2.5m as long as it's keeping track with the greater market. They're not averaging you with your neighbours, they're averaging you with yourself so your taxes don't shoot up 30% in one year. That link doesn't say anything about a property in relation to others but I might be wrong, I don't live in Vancouver. quote:With land assessment averaging, a property’s taxable value is the sum of: In Ontario, if your assessment goes up, your taxes go up but they phase the new assessed value in over 4 years. https://www.mpac.ca/PropertyOwners/FourYearCyclePhaseinProgram
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Apr 29, 2015 17:43
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On the other hand, higher property taxes would seem to discourage the purchase of investment properties in the first place.
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Apr 29, 2015 17:44
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PT6A posted:On the other hand, higher property taxes would seem to discourage the purchase of investment properties in the first place. It would discourage holding large quantities of undeveloped land. If the land is developed you would pass on the higher cost to the tenant. It's just shifting the tax onus around.
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Apr 29, 2015 17:58
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Xoidanor posted:We're talking an annual tax on the net worth of the property right...? That is not how property taxes work. Apparently I have a moment so I can explain this. The system I'm going to explain is based on Edmonton, but is used Alberta-wide, and is a commonly accepted. With that being said here's how municipal taxes work. First City Council sets a total amount of taxes they need to raise, which they will levy from municipal property taxes. This is a dollar amount, not the percentage of the property value you see on your bill. The assessment department assesses the value of each property within the community, for Edmonton this is based on the value as of... July 31st of the year in question. This is supposed to be based on the market value of the property, but should not be taken as such - a lot of small time investors are very confused when an appraisal deviates substantially from the assessment value (this happens often and for a wide variety of reasons, one being that the assessments are done on a mass appraisal basis since they do large numbers of properties at once). The assessment department then effectively sums each category of property defined by the community - this could be residential, multifamily residential (apartment buildings over 4 suites in size), industrial, commercial (retail/office), etc. Property taxes are then divided up between these different groups. Residential or multifamily residential properties generally pay a lower amount per assessed value than industrial or commercial - usually about half as much. This is a major reason why some communities seek to get more industrial properties within their area, they are a major source of long term, stable revenue compared to the less lucrative residential components. So now that the taxes have been divided up each property has its own tax rate set by a mill rate. A mill rate is your tax bill/assessed value * 1000. If your mill rate is 8.512 it means for every $1000 your property is worth you should end up paying about $8.51 in property taxes. If everyone's property value goes up by 100% but the city council keeps their total tax request the same no one will have an increase in taxes because the mill rate will be lowered to compensate for the increase. Don't blame speculators for tax bill increases - they've got literally nothing to do with it.
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Apr 29, 2015 18:00
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Baudin posted:how property taxes work Thanks for the explanation. I had been legit curious how municipalities in the Lower Mainland hadn't been rolling in speculation money and building gilded palaces for themselves.
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Apr 29, 2015 18:07
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Baudin, I've studied land-use, zoning, urban planning, and local economics as well as I could at an amateur level and I've never known this is how property taxes worked. I have a feeling most people's understanding of their city land tax is similar to people's understanding of progressive taxation. And this is generally how it works in most cities, not just alberta? \/ Well my mind is blown, thank you for the education. How does no one else know this? I constantly hear from people saying they don't want any more density in their neighbourhood because it will drive up the property taxes and all the little old ladies will be homeless. Some people even don't want the city building sidewalks and poo poo because "mah property taxes will go up!!" Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Apr 29, 2015 |
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Apr 29, 2015 18:08
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Baronjutter posted:And this is generally how it works in most cities, not just alberta? Yep. That's how it's done in B.C.
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Apr 29, 2015 18:12
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Antifreeze Head posted:From what he said, it was priced at 189-thousand with an assessment of 230-thousand. The initial price was artificially low (WAY LOW) to get the sale done quickly. This isn't uncommon and there an approximate zero chance the house would have sold ~20% below assessed value. The house needed some serious work it was just work that we knew would be easy for us to do quickly and reasonably because my wife has the skills and resources to do it and to be quite frank we're both urban hicks an give no fucks about a lot of cosmetic things that would put off other people. Most likely whoever bought it will dump a ton of money in to it and end up with a house that cost more more than its worth.
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Apr 29, 2015 18:14
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Baronjutter posted:Baudin, I've studied land-use, zoning, urban planning, and local economics as well as I could at an amateur level and I've never known this is how property taxes worked. I have a feeling most people's understanding of their city land tax is similar to people's understanding of progressive taxation. I literally work as an appraiser - it's something I need to know for my work. It's very surprising how few people understand how this works. There is one huge caveat though - if your area has a massive spike in assessed value due to lots of demand and it works its way into the assessment department's knowledge your tax bill will rise. That's the issue with increased density potentially. The counter to that of course is that its lowering everyone else's bills, and has a shitton of other added benefits 
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Apr 29, 2015 18:20
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Baudin posted:how property taxes work This is how they work in Canada, I guess. In Texas if the whole market doubles everybody's taxes double and the taxing body gets really rich for a while. If the market falls, then there's a huge tax shortfall and government bodies collapse.
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Apr 29, 2015 18:22
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Twerk from Home posted:This is how they work in Canada, I guess. In Texas if the whole market doubles everybody's taxes double and the taxing body gets really rich for a while. If the market falls, then there's a huge tax shortfall and government bodies collapse. That's a terrible, terrible idea. Also apparently incorrect: http://www.window.state.tx.us/taxinfo/proptax/pdf/96-1425.pdf They use the same system we do. Read section 4. Baudin fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Apr 29, 2015 |
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Apr 29, 2015 18:23
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Baudin posted:That's a terrible, terrible idea. We definitely have people taxed out by speculators, and I've heard it argued this makes gentrification faster and less painful for everyone because once the taxes go up, the poors get forced out very quickly. This is happening in Austin, Austins poverty rate is falling and mysteriously the nearby towns poverty rates are increasing rapidly. http://www.austinmonitor.com/stories/2015/04/drop-poverty-rate-likely-due-displacement/ Edit: Apparently I am wrong. I have to learn more about the market, all I know is that over the last 5 years house values have been up dramatically and property tax rates haven't fallen at all. Edit again: Some of the mystery is that our industrial property taxes are apparently very low: http://www.texasobserver.org/property-taxes-texas-corporations-citizen-stretched-thin/ Twerk from Home fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Apr 29, 2015 |
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Apr 29, 2015 18:26
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Twerk from Home posted:We definitely have people taxed out by speculators, and I've heard it argued this makes gentrification faster and less painful for everyone because once the taxes go up, the poors get forced out very quickly. This is happening in Austin, Austins poverty rate is falling and mysteriously the nearby towns poverty rates are increasing rapidly. I suspect this is a separate issue - I'd be interested in seeing how many people in poverty owned their property compared to renting, and how the rental rates within Austin have changed in that period, it's far more likely to be the culprit.
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Apr 29, 2015 18:31
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Fuuuuck every loving boomer bitching about property taxes
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Apr 29, 2015 18:39
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Baudin posted:If everyone's property value goes up by 100% but the city council keeps their total tax request the same no one will have an increase in taxes because the mill rate will be lowered to compensate for the increase. Don't blame speculators for tax bill increases - they've got literally nothing to do with it. Thanks for the informative post. I didn't know this was how property taxes worked. I also assumed it was a more direct relationship to assessed value. Is there a problem of uneven property value increases though? In your contrived example here everyone goes up equally but we know that in Vancouver for example there are massive spikes in the west side of Vancouver vs the rest, and overall most of the crazy price action has been in detached houses, whereas condo prices haven't risen nearly as radically. How does that affect things?
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Apr 29, 2015 18:48
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Twerk from Home posted:Edit again: Some of the mystery is that our industrial property taxes are apparently very low: Jesus christ your assessment departments are toothless compared to ours. I very very rarely see successful appeals, and declining to provide income statements to the assessment department is effectively signing a death warrant for your case before the appeals board. That amendment is godawful.
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Apr 29, 2015 18:52
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Femtosecond posted:Thanks for the informative post. I didn't know this was how property taxes worked. I also assumed it was a more direct relationship to assessed value. That would create problems for people in that area - but overall would result in a lower tax amount for the other areas. Effectively you would have to compare how quickly that area's assessed value has increased compared to the city average.
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Apr 29, 2015 18:56
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jm20 posted:I saw this same house posted to a FB article by some Americans complaining about Canadian housing prices. While the space is absolute poo poo, it's by a beach, in Vancouver and has a piece of land albeit skinny. It's obviously over priced but it is not reflective of the market as a whole. If people wanna live in a detached in downtown vancity or Toronto they have to pay the speculators, flippers, and real estate wizards who drive up prices. Are you from Vancouver? It's $1,000,000 minimum for everything west of Main now and rising by the day. $1.35 mill is a downright bargain for that neighbourhood and only because the land is so small. It's totally reflective of the market as a whole, in Vancouver anyway, and it doesn't get much cheaper - with the exception of Whalley - until you get east of Langley. It's also on west 15th so it's not very close to a beach. Maybe by other city standards. I'm three blocks from the ocean myself - everyone's technically close to a beach here.
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Apr 29, 2015 20:30
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Cultural Imperial posted:Fuuuuck every loving boomer bitching about property taxes Please, let's think about the elderly getting priced out of their 2M homes (or they could, you know, take out a HELOC or something, god forbid we cut into the gigantic inheritance that they are going to pass on).
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Apr 29, 2015 21:16
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Reverse Centaur posted:Are you from Vancouver? It's $1,000,000 minimum for everything west of Main now and rising by the day. $1.35 mill is a downright bargainfor that neighbourhood and only because the land is so small. It's totally reflective of the market as a whole, in Vancouver anyway, and it doesn't get much cheaper - with the exception of Whalley - until you get east of Langley. A bargain you say, at 1.35 million dollars, not Canadian Tire money.
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Apr 29, 2015 22:03
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jm20 posted:A bargain you say, at 1.35 million dollars, not Canadian Tire money. I was responding to your post where you made it sound like it was just a downtown issue, or that the property was overvalued compared to its neighbours. "it's not reflective of the market as a whole." No, it is. It is not an aberration, and the problem stretches well out into the Fraser Valley. Real estate prices are much worse than Toronto, even with a worse economy.
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Apr 30, 2015 03:12
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Ikantski posted:0.7-0.8% in most places. Income tax is much lower there though, on a $150k salary, we'd pay about $50k in tax and you'll pay about $30k. I think this thread would applaud Texas's progressive stance toward taxing the land owning class instead of the working class (they have zero state income tax). Not really, the lack of income tax makes it harder to fund the government and also is dangerous depending on just a few things for tax revenue. The lack of a income tax is more due to the state being a GOP controlled stronghold.
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Apr 30, 2015 03:17
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Reverse Centaur posted:I was responding to your post where you made it sound like it was just a downtown issue, or that the property was overvalued compared to its neighbours. "it's not reflective of the market as a whole." No, it is. It is not an aberration, and the problem stretches well out into the Fraser Valley. Real estate prices are much worse than Toronto, even with a worse economy. Which is puzzling. Vancouver does what for the economy and has what job prospects exactly? Toronto is at least a leader in a few industries. I just don't think it's worth it to live in Vancouver due to housing costs, rates will go up, people will be forced to sell.
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Apr 30, 2015 03:26
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Vancouver's tech scene is the envy of the world when hootsuite leading the vanguard of innovation. We also have one of the most active bitcoin communities and are leading the world in science fiction technology with companies like dwave and general fusion.
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Apr 30, 2015 03:34
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Looking at the heat Poloz is facing over his choice of words, it seems like it would be career suicide for anyone of any importance to acknowledge a bubble. I guess it follows that bubbles must be denied in order to exist. So far, our officials are sticking to the "soft-landing, regional, strong fundamentals, world-class, rising incomes" line to justify any irregularities that the realtor cartel is unable to suppress through revision of sales figures and cherry-picking of their own manipulated data-set, the home price index. For me, the problem here isn't sour grapes, as many are quick to suggest of anyone who criticizes the explosion in house prices, but a violation of the social contract. Cheap, irresponsible credit is as damaging to the fabric of society as restricted, predatory credit. The spirit of a debt agreement comes down to how the lender is able to monetize and control the relationship, whether that's through punitive interest rates or, in modern times, an insane, risk-free (to the lender) principal backed by the very organization that inspires the value of our currency. It's an abuse of power and unfairly enrichens one element of society to the detriment of others. It holds back progress of every kind. I wonder what Ezra Pound would make of it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn6r2Nm0ZMo Edit: Totes not a fascist Wasting fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Apr 30, 2015 |
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Apr 30, 2015 03:41
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We have more marijuana dispensaries than Tim Hortons.
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