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Overwined posted:Grand Cru is not a guarantee, no, but then again there is no such thing as a guarantee. Grand Cru (mostly talking about Burgundy Grand Cru here though Alsace shares a similar quality) is as close as we get, though. Keep in mind that it's not simply the appellation that attains Grand Cru status. There are several incredibly stringent guidelines that each producer must adhere to to qualify for the status. You can only crop up to a certain (usually very low) yield and then on top of that only a certain percentage of that harvest can go into Grand Cru Classe wines. There are more stipulations, but you get the picture. Grand Cru appellation kinda guarantees the process, but not the quality of the wine - a bad grand cru year is a bad year, but still a grand cru. Some of the wineries that we spoke to in Alsace thought that the Grand Cru Appellation was outdated and overused, and refused to take part in it.. Some of them it was clear that they couldn't have obtained the status, and it was a 'sour grapes' kind of attitude, others had wine that blew your mind clean, and filled it with happy fluffy pink thoughts, a good combination of Zoloft and Viagra kinda effect.
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Jul 6, 2015 07:52
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idiotsavant posted:Shaving it down to "feels good/dumb opinions" kind of oversimplifies things. Even if you completely ignore winemaking tradition, there's a very different hedonistic/kinesthetic/aesthetic experience in unscrewing a screwcap vs. pulling a cork. It's a very satisfying experience to me, and there's a certain ritual or gravity that it gives when you're opening an especially prized bottle that I don't think you really get with screwcaps. Are you, not bothered by the 5-20% of wines you lose to TCA, and the 10-50%, both varying by region of course, of bottles you lose to premox/seepage? Isn't that feeling much worse than the high of pulling a cork? Let alone the cost. But really I'm more interested in knowing whether you purchase wines differently based on their closure.
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Jul 6, 2015 13:02
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Happy Hat posted:Grand Cru appellation kinda guarantees the process, but not the quality of the wine - a bad grand cru year is a bad year, but still a grand cru. Some of the wineries that we spoke to in Alsace thought that the Grand Cru Appellation was outdated and overused, and refused to take part in it.. Some of them it was clear that they couldn't have obtained the status, and it was a 'sour grapes' kind of attitude, others had wine that blew your mind clean, and filled it with happy fluffy pink thoughts, a good combination of Zoloft and Viagra kinda effect. Well again, you sort of reiterated what I said. But relating to Alsace, I admit I have less knowledge of the specifics of their Grand Crus than, say, Burgundy. I do know a bit of the history of what you're talking about and I think it's an interesting reaction not without analogy in France and abroad. Generally from the higher quality crowd the objection is to certain methods or varietals. In some cases the appellational authorities have overlooked a tucked-away tradition or grape and in others they are using tradition as a club to squelch innovation as if those traditions were born whole cloth. I think there's a little stubborness in winemakers that criticize things like Grand Cru appellations, but who also want to glom on to its status. In most cases they can still make an AOC or VDP wine but this isn't good enough for them.
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Jul 6, 2015 13:51
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I developed a taste for Ripasso on holiday in Vencie earlier this year and have found it popping up in supermarkets in the UK recently. I was impressed by Aldi's ( https://www.aldi.co.uk/en/about-aldi/awards-endorsements/quality-food-and-drink-awards-2014/product-detail-page/ps/p/valpolicella-ripasso/ ) especially at that price, but would be interested if anyone could recommend any slightly higher priced ripasso bottles worth the money?
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Jul 6, 2015 14:43
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Overwined posted:Well again, you sort of reiterated what I said. But relating to Alsace, I admit I have less knowledge of the specifics of their Grand Crus than, say, Burgundy. I do know a bit of the history of what you're talking about and I think it's an interesting reaction not without analogy in France and abroad. Generally from the higher quality crowd the objection is to certain methods or varietals. In some cases the appellational authorities have overlooked a tucked-away tradition or grape and in others they are using tradition as a club to squelch innovation as if those traditions were born whole cloth. I think there's a little stubborness in winemakers that criticize things like Grand Cru appellations, but who also want to glom on to its status. In most cases they can still make an AOC or VDP wine but this isn't good enough for them. The Alsace Grand Cru system really is a joke. Grand Cru Alsace starting from 10 bucks a bottle, and many of its greatest sites and bottlings are not Grand Cru: Clos St-Landelin, Clos des Capucins, and probably its greatest wine, Trimbach's Clos Ste-Hune. The only thing that Alsace Grand Cru guarantees is a good degree of natural ripeness, but honestly with the vintages lately it's been ages since any half-decent bottling of non-cru Alsace struggled to reach good ripeness.
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Jul 6, 2015 16:11
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Second port question. Should I refrigerate after opening, or just put it back on the shelf?
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Jul 6, 2015 16:20
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Kasumeat posted:The Alsace Grand Cru system really is a joke. Grand Cru Alsace starting from 10 bucks a bottle, and many of its greatest sites and bottlings are not Grand Cru: Clos St-Landelin, Clos des Capucins, and probably its greatest wine, Trimbach's Clos Ste-Hune. The only thing that Alsace Grand Cru guarantees is a good degree of natural ripeness, but honestly with the vintages lately it's been ages since any half-decent bottling of non-cru Alsace struggled to reach good ripeness. Interesting. I need to bone up on Alsace. I have heard Alsatian winemakers dismiss their own Grand Crus and put plaudits on their "lesser" wines. I have also tasted Alsatian wines from old families with some prestigious vineyard holdings that tasted bland as Wonderbread. 22 Eargesplitten posted:Second port question. Should I refrigerate after opening, or just put it back on the shelf? This really depends on how long it takes you to drink and what style of Port it is. In general it'll never hurt the wine to refrigerate and would probably help. Vintage and ruby ports oxidize only a little bit slower than a table wine which is a lot faster than most people think. You have a lot more time with Tawnys/Colheitas.
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Jul 6, 2015 17:06
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Overwined posted:Well again, you sort of reiterated what I said. But relating to Alsace, I admit I have less knowledge of the specifics of their Grand Crus than, say, Burgundy. I do know a bit of the history of what you're talking about and I think it's an interesting reaction not without analogy in France and abroad. Generally from the higher quality crowd the objection is to certain methods or varietals. In some cases the appellational authorities have overlooked a tucked-away tradition or grape and in others they are using tradition as a club to squelch innovation as if those traditions were born whole cloth. I think there's a little stubborness in winemakers that criticize things like Grand Cru appellations, but who also want to glom on to its status. In most cases they can still make an AOC or VDP wine but this isn't good enough for them. I know - but didn't read all the way through. With regards to the clos terroirs, it is needed to understand that the 'clos' really isn't any kind of guarantee for anything outside that there were so many stones in the field that they decided to use them for building a fence (as I understand it). A winery like Rolly Gasmann has some great non-gc wines, and cannot get the gc appellation because their process is heavily changed. I know that I reiterate, but that is mainly to state what the guys at the winyards told me, on the stink about the gc appellation - several winyards actually told us that their non gc wines were better value for money - they didn't worry about getting the gc wines sold, so they were free with that information.
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Jul 6, 2015 17:37
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The "clos" thing is pretty funny. I remember some French guy years ago that represented Jacques Prieur (who makes an awful lot of wine) bragging on their Clos de Vougeot saying that it was obviously the most superior Grad Cru because it had a wall around it. Just look at that shithole Le Montrachet. No walls at all!!!!!!  It didn't scan well to an American audience and I suspect it's a cultural conceit.
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Jul 6, 2015 20:45
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Kasumeat posted:Are you, not bothered by the 5-20% of wines you lose to TCA, and the 10-50%, both varying by region of course, of bottles you lose to premox/seepage? Isn't that feeling much worse than the high of pulling a cork? Let alone the cost. Haha, you're overexaggerating just a teeny tiny bit there. And have they decided premox is caused by cork? Also I was under the impression it was mostly Burgs that had premox issues? You make it sound like half the wines out there under cork are full of TCA and/or are ticking time-bombs, and that just isn't the case. I've opened corked wines, corked wines that otherwise would have been great, and it is what it is. I'd definitely purchase wines based on the closure. Would you drop $700 on a case of screwcaps you intended to age 15 years? I wouldn't. I might lose one to TCA, but I'd rather have the cork.
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Jul 7, 2015 02:06
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idiotsavant posted:Haha, you're overexaggerating just a teeny tiny bit there. And have they decided premox is caused by cork? Also I was under the impression it was mostly Burgs that had premox issues? You make it sound like half the wines out there under cork are full of TCA and/or are ticking time-bombs, and that just isn't the case. I've opened corked wines, corked wines that otherwise would have been great, and it is what it is. I work as a floor sommelier, so I open and check a lot of wine. For wines made roughly 1980-2005, The TCA rate is about 5% for most New World countries, 10% in France, and 15-20% in Italy and Spain. I'm talking enough to affect the wine in an obvious negative manner compared to other samples, not when it obviously reeks of mold. People's sensitivity to TCA is different though, so YMMV. Premox is definitely a cork issue. Here's a Jancis article where she couldn't make it any clearer: quote:The Laguiche Chassagne Morgeot 2010 had too marked a note of sweaty socks for a wine costing more than £500 a case. The Girardin Meursault Narvaux 2009 oxidised in the glass. Three of the five 2007 white burgundies were past their best, with the Leflaive Clavoillon, the most expensive wine in the tasting, dead as a dodo. At a recent dinner at Ballymaloe near Cork in Ireland I happened to have the chance to taste two bottles of Leflaive Pucelles 2007 and one Leflaive Chevalier-Montrachet 2007 (about £400 a bottle retail) that had come straight from the domaine in Puligny-Montrachet. Only one of these three bottles, one of the Pucelles, was fresh enough to enjoy. Her experiences mirror my own, and not just for Burg. It's rarely as dramatic as with Burg, but for mature wine it's very common to have two bottles of the same wine, stored identically, show dramatically differently when closed under cork. For young wines it's not much of an issue, but how many bottles in a case of, say, 1999 Chateau Beaucastel would I expect to be showing as well as the best bottle? Maybe four or five. And as for purchasing, why would I hesitate to buy wine to age under screwcap? The real question is why you'd buy wine to age under cork. Cork is fine for short-term consumption. The wine will develop quickly, and if it's faulted, you can return it. But good luck returning a bottle fifteen years after you've bought it. Under screwcap you are 100% guaranteed to have that wine age well if you store it properly. I've opened literally thousands of bottles under screwcap, and had to reject a total of one of them for being faulted (too reductive, though that blew off in time). Why would you hesitate? I hope I'm not coming off as confrontational here, that's not my intention. I honestly just can't comprehend why one would hesitate to choose a closure which is proven to be the most effective for long-term aging, so I'd like to know why you prefer cork for aging.
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Jul 7, 2015 03:44
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Wine isn't medicine. Aged wine isn't a life-saving antibiotic. We need exactly none of it. Trying to appeal to some hard-core rationality about a product that we have absolutely no need of seems silly. The whole thing is ceremony and perception and personal enjoyment of experiences. I have a funny feeling that you're alienating people who are otherwise friendly to Stelvins with your polarizing attitude.
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Jul 7, 2015 04:08
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Not sure if there's a better place to post this as it's not wine, but this thread seemed to make the most sense because of similarities to Glühwein, but just thought I should throw a heads up to goons in case anyone has a chance to buy this as it's really really good - Maxwell Spiced Mead: http://www.maxwellwines.com.au/wine/spiced-mead/ Served hot (but not boiling), it's like Glühwein but more arromatic. Warms the belly and is absolutely fantastic in the winter. Not sure if you can get it outside of Australia. It has a similar alcohol content to wine as well at ~12%. I got given a sample the other day at the mall, and immediately bought 2 bottles.
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Jul 7, 2015 06:27
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Kasumeat posted:
Kasumeat posted:I honestly just can't comprehend why one would hesitate to choose a closure which is proven to be the most effective for long-term aging, so I'd like to know why you prefer cork for aging.
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Jul 7, 2015 06:40
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I have no preference. That being said I open so many bottles a day it would be nice if I worked with screw caps. Because I have run into several corked bottles and it's always a drag.
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Jul 7, 2015 06:54
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Kasumeat posted:The Alsace Grand Cru system really is a joke. Grand Cru Alsace starting from 10 bucks a bottle, and many of its greatest sites and bottlings are not Grand Cru: Clos St-Landelin, Clos des Capucins, and probably its greatest wine, Trimbach's Clos Ste-Hune. The only thing that Alsace Grand Cru guarantees is a good degree of natural ripeness, but honestly with the vintages lately it's been ages since any half-decent bottling of non-cru Alsace struggled to reach good ripeness. Clos St. Landelin is the Southern end of the Vorbourg Grand Cru vineyard, and Clos Ste Hune is Rosacker Grand Cru. They just eschew the labeling, believing their historical name and site to be more important than a Grand Cru system that came later. Kasumeat posted:I work as a floor sommelier, so I open and check a lot of wine. For wines made roughly 1980-2005, The TCA rate is about 5% for most New World countries, 10% in France, and 15-20% in Italy and Spain. I'm talking enough to affect the wine in an obvious negative manner compared to other samples, not when it obviously reeks of mold. People's sensitivity to TCA is different though, so YMMV. Holy poo poo, where are you getting your Italian and Spanish wines from? That's an outrageously high tainted rate. This is not true in my experience on the floor at all, and I really think if that were normal and expected of Spanish and Italian wines that you'd see their wine industry crumbling. I hope you're not throwing out wines showing VA. Crimson fucked around with this message at 10:58 on Jul 7, 2015 |
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Jul 7, 2015 10:54
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Crimson posted:Clos St. Landelin is the Southern end of the Vorbourg Grand Cru vineyard, and Clos Ste Hune is Rosacker Grand Cru. They just eschew the labeling, believing their historical name and site to be more important than a Grand Cru system that came later. Yes but it's not just a case of prioritising history over modernity - they could label as "Rosacker GC 'Clos Ste Hune'" if they wanted to, but deliberately choose not to associate the wine with the obviously less prestigious GC system. Is there a wine in all of France outside of Alsace that qualifies for GC status but eschews it? Not many, if at all. quote:Holy poo poo, where are you getting your Italian and Spanish wines from? That's an outrageously high tainted rate. This is not true in my experience on the floor at all, and I really think if that were normal and expected of Spanish and Italian wines that you'd see their wine industry crumbling. I hope you're not throwing out wines showing VA. I'm talking about wines that show obvious TCA/TCB or just a muted fruit character that likely comes from cork fault. It was a rough period of time for the industry, and things have improved since then, though we're still over 5%. The vast majority of cork taint goes undetected though, so I don't think it would affect the industry much. There's a big attachment to cork closures. When working at an establishment where you don't check the wines before presenting to guests, how many bottles are rejected due to fault? Almost none. Literally less than 10% of what I reject when checking them myself.
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Jul 7, 2015 14:23
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For my sensory panel we open around ~ 20 bottles a day, about a 1/3 being natural cork, and I can count on one hand the number of times we've had cork taint. We predominantly do new world wines to be fair
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Jul 7, 2015 17:15
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Jerome Louis posted:For my sensory panel we open around ~ 20 bottles a day, about a 1/3 being natural cork, and I can count on one hand the number of times we've had cork taint. We predominantly do new world wines to be fair I haven't had a corked bottle that was younger than 5 years. It's when I get to 12+ years that I inspect the bottle and cork before I go out to the table. I'll take the paper or whatever that covers the cork and take a good look at it under good light before I take it to the floor with a decanter. I have had maybe 9 corked bottles this year, which isn't too bad considering I have probably opened almost 200 so far.
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Jul 7, 2015 18:43
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On an irrational "I prefer the sound of vinyl" sort of visceral level I prefer the ritual of corks by a mile, but anecdotally (not useful I know) I've had about an equal ratio of failure between corks and screws for the 140 or so bottles I've drank so far this year. I've had 2 definite TCA'ed wines under cork, and 2 possibles, and I've only had 1 screwcap leak (which the winery happily swapped out for me) but seeing as how I probably drink 3-4 times as much cork wine to screwcap it's about even. I'm not in the industry and I don't store wines for more than a few years so my opinion can probably go fly a kite though  I'm mostly surprised that I'm on track to drink the equivalent of a wine a day this year considering I only started getting into it like 3 years ago.
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Jul 7, 2015 19:02
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There is also the case cork manufacturers got lazy and are now stinging under the backlash and working harder to keep their corks clean--though it isn't always their fault. Wines in that dirty middle period when they couldn't give a gently caress are surely going to fail at a higher rate. Alternative closures weren't really a thing in this era so there isn't much to be done about it.
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Jul 7, 2015 19:32
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himajinga posted:On an irrational "I prefer the sound of vinyl" sort of visceral level I prefer the ritual of corks by a mile, but anecdotally (not useful I know) I've had about an equal ratio of failure between corks and screws for the 140 or so bottles I've drank so far this year. I've had 2 definite TCA'ed wines under cork, and 2 possibles, and I've only had 1 screwcap leak (which the winery happily swapped out for me) but seeing as how I probably drink 3-4 times as much cork wine to screwcap it's about even. I'm not in the industry and I don't store wines for more than a few years so my opinion can probably go fly a kite though Its not irrational. Wine presentation can be considered as important as the product, especially if you are out of the house and at a wine bar or restaurant. Although I have never even heard of (until now) a screw cap being tainted.
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Jul 7, 2015 21:13
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Secret Spoon posted:Its not irrational. Wine presentation can be considered as important as the product, especially if you are out of the house and at a wine bar or restaurant. I guess "unscientific" is what I meant, ritual over data or whatever, for as much of a scientist as I am with most things, I'm definitely a ritualist when it comes to my hedonic pleasures (wine, music, etc). In regard to the screw cap, it leaked a little bit out of the capsule when I pulled the wine from the rack and set it upright onto the table, so I assumed it would have been oxidized and didn't open it thinking I'd have to swap it at the winery. They just ended up shipping me another for free, so I still have it sitting next to the rack, I should open it one of these days to see if it's actually oxed or not.
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Jul 7, 2015 21:49
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So I have been doing deductive tastings 3 times a week while working on my theory for the past 3 months, and I got to say, this is more stressful than I thought. I'm just glad I have a level 3 working mentoring me and 4 other guys to work on our level 2. She is brutal and ruins us each time we are wrong. I'm loving learning every day, I'm also excited that I am making progress.
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Jul 8, 2015 07:41
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Kasumeat posted:Yes but it's not just a case of prioritising history over modernity - they could label as "Rosacker GC 'Clos Ste Hune'" if they wanted to, but deliberately choose not to associate the wine with the obviously less prestigious GC system. Is there a wine in all of France outside of Alsace that qualifies for GC status but eschews it? Not many, if at all. The famous clos should have had their own grand cru AOC, like in Burgundy, rather than trying to lump them into a large site. They definitely hosed that up. I wouldn't necessarily bemoan the comparatively lower prices for Grand Cru Riesling, though. Fact is, it's much cheaper to make great Riesling than it is to make great Chardonnay. Kasumeat posted:I'm talking about wines that show obvious TCA/TCB or just a muted fruit character that likely comes from cork fault. It was a rough period of time for the industry, and things have improved since then, though we're still over 5%. The vast majority of cork taint goes undetected though, so I don't think it would affect the industry much. There's a big attachment to cork closures. When working at an establishment where you don't check the wines before presenting to guests, how many bottles are rejected due to fault? Almost none. Literally less than 10% of what I reject when checking them myself. I taste all bottles that I open, about 25-40 a night, and am very sensitive to cork taint and aware that it can present simply as muted fruit character. I still can't possibly understand how you're encountering so many corked bottles. FYI I'm all for the screwcap revolution. Secret Spoon posted:So I have been doing deductive tastings 3 times a week while working on my theory for the past 3 months, and I got to say, this is more stressful than I thought. I'm just glad I have a level 3 working mentoring me and 4 other guys to work on our level 2. She is brutal and ruins us each time we are wrong. I'm loving learning every day, I'm also excited that I am making progress. What city are you in if you don't mind me asking? All I'll say is it gets easier. It's like learning a language. Once you have a solid foundation and speak the language fairly well, absorbing new information becomes much easier and more fluid. The best advice I ever got was to treat theory like exercise. You fit it in wherever possible, every drat day. If I have 10 minutes before I need to leave for work, I'll read in those 10 minutes. That repetition makes it all stick so much better.
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Jul 8, 2015 09:14
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Houston. Yeah it's uh, well, it's rewarding for sure. But all I did the first two weeks was fumble around. I also had to move my studying from 2 hours a day to 3 just to keep up. What I really want is some larger maps that list out ava and sub avas.
Secret Spoon fucked around with this message at 15:59 on Jul 8, 2015 |
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Jul 8, 2015 15:55
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Secret Spoon posted:Houston. Yeah it's uh, well, it's rewarding for sure. But all I did the first two weeks was fumble around. I also had to move my studying from 2 hours a day to 3 just to keep up. What I really want is some larger maps that list out ava and sub avas. Get Kevin Zraly's Windows on the World if you don't already have it. I always recommend that for beginners. Easy to read, just the right amount of basic information on the classic regions without going overboard. Avoid learning lists of things that are meaningless to you, like memorizing AOCs or AVAs without reading about what the region is actually like and their styles of wines. For me personally at least, I found I was having difficulty recalling info because I was just memorizing names, I had no concept of what the region was like, where the rivers and mountains were, what grapes/styles they were doing and why, etc. etc. It became a lot easier when I just started casually reading about the region's history and geography, digesting that info first, then memorizing the place names. Your brain will remember it better if you know a bit about the New Zealand regions, for example, rather than just looking at the map and memorizing it from North to South. I really wish I knew this when I started studying. Also, Wine Folly is a nice resource for some colorful maps.
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Jul 9, 2015 08:32
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Crimson posted:Get Kevin Zraly's Windows on the World if you don't already have it. I always recommend that for beginners. Easy to read, just the right amount of basic information on the classic regions without going overboard. I have a few wine bibles, but that just got added to the list. No I read about the history first, for each region. I'm just hitting the point where having a map where I could pin certain points, like lets say The different producers on the Rhone river rather than having to look each one up individually. For me, its easier to study the history if I have the land marks mapped out, especially if I map them myself. Im slowly working my way backwards through time, having started with American wines. Thanks for the link! Any studying tool I can lay my hands on is a huge help. I had to quit smoking for this once I decided I wanted to work as a somm, which has not been fun. Also, tonight, Mercury Head 2012 was on the tasting, what a disappointment. I placed it as a napa, but I couldn't guess a vinyard. I literally blind called it as maybe Billhook 2013. I was more impressed with the frank family 2012 last week. Or I am just worse at tasting than I thought HNNNGngNGNGNGNGnNGNGNG.
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Jul 9, 2015 08:47
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Crimson posted:Also, Wine Folly is a nice resource for some colorful maps. Woah. I didn't know this existed! This is pretty cool, thanks. Also we have a pretty in depth OP, but it doesn't seem to have any book recommendations on it.
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Jul 9, 2015 15:43
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Crimson posted:Get Kevin Zraly's Windows on the World if you don't already have it. I always recommend that for beginners. Easy to read, just the right amount of basic information on the classic regions without going overboard. Seconding Windows on the World. My only complaint is that it goes into WAY too much detail on Hungary, but other than that, it's very well put together. Wine Folly is pretty great too, though careful to take everything from there with a grain of salt, it's riddled with inaccuracies and a strange obsession with obscure Italian whites.
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Jul 9, 2015 20:32
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Kasumeat posted:a strange obsession with obscure Italian whites. I fail to see a problem. EDIT: Ribolla Gialla 4 lyfe y'all EDIT2: Yes I know it's the new hipster hotness a la Gruner 10 years ago. I don't care. Feed it to me morning noon and night.
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Jul 10, 2015 00:46
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Overwined posted:EDIT2: Yes I know it's the new hipster hotness a la Gruner 10 years ago. I don't care. Feed it to me morning noon and night. Who cares if its hipster or not. Drink what you love. I am a big Côte-Rôtie drinker. I love everything about em. But I still get psyched when I sell a bottle of carter beckstoffer, watch the guest take their first smell and taste, and nod with the look of genuine happiness, real appreciation.
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Jul 10, 2015 05:06
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Overwined posted:I fail to see a problem. Is Pigato not cool & new enough anymore??
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Jul 10, 2015 19:18
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I just bought some 7 years past vintage natural Sardinian unfined Cannonau orange nonsense full of sticks and VA, gonna get my wine hipster on next weekend 
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Jul 10, 2015 19:48
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Wouldn't wine hipsterism be drinking white merlot ironically?
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Jul 10, 2015 20:04
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I think wine hipsterism is drinking mead
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Jul 10, 2015 20:25
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Starting a sherry bar
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Jul 10, 2015 20:31
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Starting a gin bar... Wait everybody are doing that now.
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Jul 10, 2015 20:35
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Happy Hat posted:I think wine hipsterism is drinking mead Mead is already old hat for beer nerds, those hipsters have to move on I guess. I think one being in wine would automatically exclude a hipster presence.
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Jul 10, 2015 20:36
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Just looked up a list of most popular hipster drinks - the only wine option on it was 'House'.
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Jul 10, 2015 21:15
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