War in the Pacific Day by Day - Imperial Edition

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Let's Play! > War in the Pacific Day by Day - Imperial Edition

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gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Fuligin posted:

How sophisticated is the AI in WitP? Does it actually have some level of strategic planning, or is it more just shuffling troops and ships around until it breaks you by force of production numbers?

The latter. There are something like a dozen different AI scripts, of which one is randomly selected at the start of the game, and that defines which bases the AI will target, and in what order.

The key is that the AI is bad at concentrating forces: if it decides that it needs to take Midway, it'll compose a task force out of whatever forces are currently available at Tokyo (or whatever it defines as a staging base, I'm not sure which one exactly) and sail it for Midway. Whereas a human might want to, say, wait for the Kido Butai to come to be ready and delay the TF by another week, the AI just goes with whatever it has on hand when that section of its script is triggered.

This means that it's going to eventually run into situation where it's sending penny-packets of troops and ships towards targets that it will never stop trying to take.

If you're playing the Allies against the Japanese AI, this means that you can probably halt Japanese expansion by 1942 if you can figure out where the AI is driving hard for and making a stand there, such as reinforcing Port Moresby and Diamond Harbor with lots of troops and land-based air. You probably wouldn't be able to do the same as easily to a human because a human would know when to bug out or try for a flank or go in a different direction.

If you're playing the Japanese against the Allied AI, it's still going to be an uphill battle because "let's just go with whatever's currently docked in Pearl Harbor" can still be a frighteningly powerful task force in 1944 when the Allies are swimming in carriers, and doubly so when it only takes one good bomb hit for a KB carrier to sink and you have no way to absorb those losses. To wit, the penny packets are still very heavy, and you cannot afford to make a mistake while handling them.

This is sort of why the developers created "Ironman" scenarios where the Japanese just gets a wildly fantastical amount of additional forces: to replicate that effect of having so many air, naval and ground assets that the "this random assortment of TFs is actually quite powerful" effect will happen much more often against the Japanese AI, as opposed to maybe once before the IJN completely runs out of steam in the historical game.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 00:48

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# ? Jun 8, 2024 09:34

Veloxyll: May 3, 2011; Fuck you say?!

Actually finding subs is hard. You can put all the Catlinas you have and some of the fighter bombers on ASW as well as sending out smaller hunting squads and the enemy subs can still give you plenty of grief.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 00:58

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Veloxyll posted:

Actually finding subs is hard. You can put all the Catlinas you have and some of the fighter bombers on ASW as well as sending out smaller hunting squads and the enemy subs can still give you plenty of grief.

Oh yeah, that's also true - even if you knew that a certain section of ocean was sub infested, it's still not easy to delouse.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 01:03

Generation Internet: Jan 18, 2009; Where angels and generals fear to tread.

Veloxyll posted:

Actually finding subs is hard. You can put all the Catlinas you have and some of the fighter bombers on ASW as well as sending out smaller hunting squads and the enemy subs can still give you plenty of grief.

I haven't played a ton, but it definitely struck me after playing with manual search arcs that it's actually very hard to cover large stretches of ocean with airplanes at any given time even if you have a lot of them. If random arcs are on I think the odds of actually being in the same spot as an enemy sub are pretty low.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 01:10

GOOD TIMES ON METH: Mar 17, 2006; Fun Shoe

gradenko_2000 posted:

The latter. There are something like a dozen different AI scripts, of which one is randomly selected at the start of the game, and that defines which bases the AI will target, and in what order.

The key is that the AI is bad at concentrating forces: if it decides that it needs to take Midway, it'll compose a task force out of whatever forces are currently available at Tokyo (or whatever it defines as a staging base, I'm not sure which one exactly) and sail it for Midway. Whereas a human might want to, say, wait for the Kido Butai to come to be ready and delay the TF by another week, the AI just goes with whatever it has on hand when that section of its script is triggered.

This means that it's going to eventually run into situation where it's sending penny-packets of troops and ships towards targets that it will never stop trying to take.

If you're playing the Allies against the Japanese AI, this means that you can probably halt Japanese expansion by 1942 if you can figure out where the AI is driving hard for and making a stand there, such as reinforcing Port Moresby and Diamond Harbor with lots of troops and land-based air. You probably wouldn't be able to do the same as easily to a human because a human would know when to bug out or try for a flank or go in a different direction.

If you're playing the Japanese against the Allied AI, it's still going to be an uphill battle because "let's just go with whatever's currently docked in Pearl Harbor" can still be a frighteningly powerful task force in 1944 when the Allies are swimming in carriers, and doubly so when it only takes one good bomb hit for a KB carrier to sink and you have no way to absorb those losses. To wit, the penny packets are still very heavy, and you cannot afford to make a mistake while handling them.

This is sort of why the developers created "Ironman" scenarios where the Japanese just gets a wildly fantastical amount of additional forces: to replicate that effect of having so many air, naval and ground assets that the "this random assortment of TFs is actually quite powerful" effect will happen much more often against the Japanese AI, as opposed to maybe once before the IJN completely runs out of steam in the historical game.

I assume AI behavior is pretty impossible to mod, right? Or at least really hard? Otherwise the developers would have done it instead of just giving Japan more poo poo in alt. scenarios.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 14:39

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Goetta posted:

I assume AI behavior is pretty impossible to mod, right? Or at least really hard? Otherwise the developers would have done it instead of just giving Japan more poo poo in alt. scenarios.

The developers' resident AI guy has tried to make some better scripts, but besides some better opening moves, yes, there's a fairly strict limit to how much smarter you can make the AI.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 14:48

ZombieLenin: Sep 6, 2009; "Democracy for the insignificant minority, democracy for the rich--that is the democracy of capitalist society." VI Lenin

[/quote]

Drone posted:

Thankfully WitP has a December 8th scenario that gives you the historical result, but it seems to not be terribly popular for LP's or AAR's.

I would use this, except one of my favorite things (and the only thing that excites me really in the first bunch of turns as the allies) is trying to save Prince of Wales and Repulse.

If there were a way to have a December 8th start, but at least force the die rolls for the attack on PoW and Repulse, I'd play it all the time.

Playing as the Japanese it doesn't matter so much, but watching the Pearl raid is kind of satisfying even if you don't get historical (or even close) results.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 15:19

Drone: Aug 22, 2003; Incredible machine

ZombieLenin posted:

I would use this, except one of my favorite things (and the only thing that excites me really in the first bunch of turns as the allies) is trying to save Prince of Wales and Repulse.

If there were a way to have a December 8th start, but at least force the die rolls for the attack on PoW and Repulse, I'd play it all the time.

Playing as the Japanese it doesn't matter so much, but watching the Pearl raid is kind of satisfying even if you don't get historical (or even close) results.

You can definitely save Force Z. I play pretty much exclusively from the December 8th start date and have been able to save PoW and Repulse maybe 65% of the time.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 15:46

Grey Hunter: Oct 17, 2007; Hero of the soviet union.
Accidental destroyer of planets

Two more bases are invaded.

The Kido Butai is back!

They take a few losses, but they've found two light cruisers!

We come back in the afternoon and do for one of them.

We hit Bataan again, we take heavy losses, but break a level of forts � once they are gone, this is a done deal.

I really hate these guys.

And these guys.

We do take unspellable island though.

Here's today's Amoy report.

Ahh, the KB is back in action, and we are taking a few more bases � I hope the tempo picks up soon.

Mmmh. Warship.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 18:02

goatface: Dec 5, 2007; I had a video of that when I was about 6.

I remember it being shit.; Grimey Drawer

rip RNZN

I think that's both of their cruisers until 1943.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 18:08

Peanut3141: Oct 30, 2009

Grey Hunter posted:

Here's today's Amoy report.

Wow, how is this not over? He has over 4 times the adjusted AV with no forts! I thought the capture point was twice the AV with no forts. Can someone who plays WITP explain this?

# ? Feb 15, 2016 18:13

Zeroisanumber: Oct 23, 2010; Nap Ghost

A shock attack might have ended it, but deliberative attacks are fine as long as Grey doesn't need the troops elsewhere. Those Chinese troops are doomed, and the squad numbers bear that out.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 18:15

Pervis: Jan 12, 2001; YOSPOS

Peanut3141 posted:

Wow, how is this not over? He has over 4 times the adjusted AV with no forts! I thought the capture point was twice the AV with no forts. Can someone who plays WITP explain this?

He probably took the base days ago, but the defenders had nowhere to retreat, so now they fight till the death (or surrender) which doesn't work with the same rules. I've seen 50 to 1 ratios and still not finish off the hostile troops for that battle, but eventually the units will either be destroyed or you'll get the message that you have units surrounded at the base (after a battle) which means some of the units were destroyed/surrendered after the battle.

It's kind of wonky and sometimes takes a week or more to finish off enemy troops in a base hex even after you captured the base itself.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 18:24

Peanut3141: Oct 30, 2009

Pervis posted:

He probably took the base days ago, but the defenders had nowhere to retreat, so now they fight till the death (or surrender) which doesn't work with the same rules. I've seen 50 to 1 ratios and still not finish off the hostile troops for that battle, but eventually the units will either be destroyed or you'll get the message that you have units surrounded at the base (after a battle) which means some of the units were destroyed/surrendered after the battle.

It's kind of wonky and sometimes takes a week or more to finish off enemy troops in a base hex even after you captured the base itself.

Thanks for the explanation. I was under the impression that giving the defenders nowhere to retreat simply forced them to surrender/be destroyed when they were defeated with the appropriate AV multiplier instead of retreating.

I'm now curious to find out what it takes to get surrounded forces to surrender in lieu of fighting to the death.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 19:18

Jobbo_Fett: Mar 7, 2014; Slava Ukrayini; Clapping Larry

Congratulations Cartoon for being the first confirmed actual victim!

CL Leander was his claim

# ? Feb 15, 2016 19:18

ZombieLenin: Sep 6, 2009; "Democracy for the insignificant minority, democracy for the rich--that is the democracy of capitalist society." VI Lenin

[/quote]

Drone posted:

You can definitely save Force Z. I play pretty much exclusively from the December 8th start date and have been able to save PoW and Repulse maybe 65% of the time.

This is an example of how video games rot your mind. Years of playing WiTP and reading LPs and having force Z attacked on Dec 7th made me forget that "in real life" this force wasn't attacked until the 10th.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 19:38

Saint Celestine: Dec 17, 2008; Lay a fire within your soul and another between your hands, and let both be your weapons.
For one is faith and the other is victory and neither may ever be put out.
- Saint Sabbat, Lessons; Grimey Drawer

How do you save force Z? Cant the Japanese player just start attacking them with betties straight from the getgo? Do you just pray you dont take any torpedo hits ?

# ? Feb 15, 2016 20:09

Zeroisanumber: Oct 23, 2010; Nap Ghost

Saint Celestine posted:

How do you save force Z? Cant the Japanese player just start attacking them with betties straight from the getgo? Do you just pray you dont take any torpedo hits ?

IIRC, Grey saved both the PoW and the Repulse last time out and got them to Johannesburg for repairs. He got them sunk later, of course, as part of his ongoing vendetta with the Royal Navy, but they weren't killed the first day.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 20:16

Dreamsicle: Oct 16, 2013

Zeroisanumber posted:

IIRC, Grey saved both the PoW and the Repulse last time out and got them to Johannesburg for repairs. He got them sunk later, of course, as part of his ongoing vendetta with the Royal Navy, but they weren't killed the first day.

IIRC Repulse was also involved in early war surface action including a raid on a Kido Butai element.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 20:19

Mikl: Nov 8, 2009; Vote shit sandwich or the shit sandwich gets it!

Jobbo_Fett posted:

Congratulations Cartoon for being the first confirmed actual victim!

CL Leander was his claim

Any bets on which flattop will be first to become a reef?

# ? Feb 15, 2016 22:32

goatface: Dec 5, 2007; I had a video of that when I was about 6.

I remember it being shit.; Grimey Drawer

Traditionally it should be HMS Hermes.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 22:40

TheFlyingLlama: Jan 2, 2013; You really think someone would do that? Just go on the internet and be a llama?

Mikl posted:

Any bets on which flattop will be first to become a reef?

assuming it's not a random allied carrier off doing something dumb by itself, I'll guess one of the Japanese light carriers not in the Kido Butai. Probably it'll get jumped by an allied taskforce and not manage to limp home like the Ryujo did

TheFlyingLlama fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Feb 15, 2016

# ? Feb 15, 2016 22:45

ZombieLenin: Sep 6, 2009; "Democracy for the insignificant minority, democracy for the rich--that is the democracy of capitalist society." VI Lenin

[/quote]

Saint Celestine posted:

How do you save force Z? Cant the Japanese player just start attacking them with betties straight from the getgo? Do you just pray you dont take any torpedo hits ?

If you get them a little farther south, you can actually get a pretty decent cap over them.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 23:34

A Festivus Miracle: Dec 19, 2012; I have come to discourse on the profound inequities of the American political system.

Placing my bets on the CVL Shoho. In addition to being way smaller than any other Japanese carrier and unarmored( :gonk:

), it's also got the benefit of that awful Japanese damage control. In the first fleet engagement, I'm going to bet that it gets tagged by Allied CVs first, and promptly eat 40 bomb hits.

Either that or the Ryujo. Grey's got all of his big CVs grouped up right now, so none of them will die unless he engages with the Allied CVs or a submarine gets fantastically lucky.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 23:36

algebra testes: Mar 5, 2011; Lipstick Apathy

Grey Hunter posted:

We come back in the afternoon and do for one of them.

code:

CL Leander to Fleet Command

Mayday mayday, ship hit, and is sinking.

Abandoning ship.

- Fred

# ? Feb 16, 2016 00:45

Cartoon: Jun 20, 2008; poop

Jobbo_Fett posted:

Congratulations Cartoon for being the first confirmed actual victim!

CL Leander was his claim

I'd like to thank the KB, obviously and Grey Hunter's ongoing commitment to sink everything with a union jack on it. I'd now like to ~~doom~~ claim the HMNZS Achiles. Long may she float!

# ? Feb 16, 2016 00:46

goatface: Dec 5, 2007; I had a video of that when I was about 6.

I remember it being shit.; Grimey Drawer

Stop trying to cheat your way to two in two days.

# ? Feb 16, 2016 00:53

Woodchip: Mar 28, 2010

Ryujo'll get hit by a sub on the way back to the fleet. It'll be a real Dutch treat!

# ? Feb 16, 2016 00:57

Jobbo_Fett: Mar 7, 2014; Slava Ukrayini; Clapping Larry

Cartoon posted:

I'd like to thank the KB, obviously and Grey Hunter's ongoing commitment to sink everything with a union jack on it. I'd now like to ~~doom~~ claim the HMNZS Achiles. Long may she float!

oystertoadfish already claimed that. I really wanted a double claim-kill

# ? Feb 16, 2016 01:18

Veloxyll: May 3, 2011; Fuck you say?!

So, I found this in Sea Shantie Simulator

Obviousy, there was only one thing to do

Sinking both the Enterprise, and the Royal Navy in one go. That's what we call efficient!

# ? Feb 16, 2016 01:37

Cartoon: Jun 20, 2008; poop

Jobbo_Fett posted:

oystertoadfish already claimed that. I really wanted a double claim-kill

drat it! I swore I checked. OK I'll Have HMAS Hobart.

# ? Feb 16, 2016 02:45

Jobbo_Fett: Mar 7, 2014; Slava Ukrayini; Clapping Larry

Cartoon posted:

drat it! I swore I checked. OK I'll Have HMAS Hobart.

Done

# ? Feb 16, 2016 03:06

AceRimmer: Mar 18, 2009

LordPants posted:

code:

CL Leander to Fleet Command

Mayday mayday, ship hit, and is sinking.

Abandoning ship.

- Fred

# ? Feb 16, 2016 03:21

pthighs: Jun 21, 2013; Pillbug

Well played LordPants, well played.

# ? Feb 16, 2016 05:02

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

Zeroisanumber posted:

IIRC, Grey saved both the PoW and the Repulse last time out and got them to Johannesburg for repairs. He got them sunk later, of course, as part of his ongoing vendetta with the Royal Navy, but they weren't killed the first day.

This part strikes me as unlikely.

# ? Feb 16, 2016 06:04

A Festivus Miracle: Dec 19, 2012; I have come to discourse on the profound inequities of the American political system.

PittTheElder posted:

This part strikes me as unlikely.

The Prince of Wales and Repulse actually took a fair beating in the intial day one attack. Prince of Wales ate a torpedo, while Repulse took two and both ate several bomb hits (from those pathetic, weeny 250 kg bombs though). Both initially quartered in Singapore, which itself got nailed with air raids. For some odd reason, the air raids only killed APs. After that, he sailed them off to India, and from there, to Cape Town. I'm not entirely sure what happened to Repulse, but my guess is that that though she took two torpedoes, the flooding was probably contained pretty quickly, and the bomb hits were completely superficial.

# ? Feb 16, 2016 06:42

Zeroisanumber: Oct 23, 2010; Nap Ghost

PittTheElder posted:

This part strikes me as unlikely.

Cape Town. Years of drinking have dulled my already scanty knowledge of South African geography.

# ? Feb 16, 2016 06:59

TheDemon: Dec 11, 2006; _{...on the plus side I'm feeling much more angry now than I expected so this totally helps me get in character.}

A White Guy posted:

The Prince of Wales and Repulse actually took a fair beating in the intial day one attack. Prince of Wales ate a torpedo, while Repulse took two and both ate several bomb hits (from those pathetic, weeny 250 kg bombs though). Both initially quartered in Singapore, which itself got nailed with air raids. For some odd reason, the air raids only killed APs. After that, he sailed them off to India, and from there, to Cape Town. I'm not entirely sure what happened to Repulse, but my guess is that that though she took two torpedoes, the flooding was probably contained pretty quickly, and the bomb hits were completely superficial.

Johannesburg is landlocked.

# ? Feb 16, 2016 07:05

A Festivus Miracle: Dec 19, 2012; I have come to discourse on the profound inequities of the American political system.

TheDemon posted:

Johannesburg is landlocked.

Grey put the PoW and Repulse on wheels and rolled them to Johannesburg on roads made from the bones of dead Japanese.

# ? Feb 16, 2016 07:07

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# ? Jun 8, 2024 09:34

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

What would you even do with the PoW and Repulse, assuming you got them out? Start some poo poo in the Java Sea before it turns into a Betty-patrolled lake? Sail down to Oz and link up with US BBs for central Pacific shore bombardment?

It seems like they wouldn't be able to do much operating out of Colombo with all that LBA out of Indochina.

# ? Feb 16, 2016 07:09

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