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MrMojok posted:The trap aspect works well, making Luke look impotently on while the fleet is destroyed. I loved the Palp-Luke-Vader stuff there, but couldn't they have used a different plot device or setting, rather than a second death star with a critical weakness? Everything involving Luke, Vader, and the Emperor during ROTJ is peak fuckin' Star Wars and I will take all comers on this.
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Feb 24, 2016 04:46
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I think repeating the use of the Death Star in RotJ was a mistake, but I did find it more entertaining than the one in ANH. The Falcon flying around inside the guts and blowing up the giant core is a great spectacle even if it isn't as... um, thematically strong? as the first trench run. I didn't really mind Starkiller Base, though I did wish it had a few more scenes that showed off the scale of it. It's hard to wrap my brain around an equator-sized weapon, even more so than Laser Moon.
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Feb 24, 2016 05:00
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Even the first trench run is stupid as poo poo. It doesn't take a genius to notice - hell, Luke says it during the film - that having two people fly right behind the point man during the trench run, making no attempt to disrupt their attackers, is real dumb. I'm sure he's copying some famous WWII film that I haven't seen, but every time I see it my mind screams "what the gently caress is the point of this? Just hurry up and have the journeying hero blow this thing up like we knew all along he was going to".
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Feb 24, 2016 05:10
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Barudak posted:Everything involving Luke, Vader, and the Emperor during ROTJ is peak fuckin' Star Wars and I will take all comers on this. I can't imagine virtually anyone would disagree with you.
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Feb 24, 2016 05:15
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The main issue is that the original Death Star has a full-fledged environment that's fairly easy to understand. Prisoners are kept here, garbage goes there, it's all connected through a network of catwalks and elevators, etc. Think of how Lucas constantly emphasizes the difficulty of navigating the environment, with little scenes like Luke swinging over the death-pit and the where they Han blasts his way through the detention level's security. Death Star 2 really only has Sheev's garage and Sheev's penthouse. It doesn't stand on its own. Death Star 3 does have a variety of locations, but they aren't very well-defined, and blur together with the locations on Ren's ship. Like, there are two near-identical torture rooms in the film, but the garbage chute is only mentioned in a brief reference. It's basically the same variation between how Tatooine is presented in those same three films. Think of how clearly every little detail of how podracing is depicted in Phantom Menace, down to the dudes selling hotdogs and the personalities of the pit-crew droids. By comparison, the workings of the New Order are borderline incomprehensible. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 06:03 on Feb 24, 2016 |
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Feb 24, 2016 05:54
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PittTheElder posted:Even the first trench run is stupid as poo poo. It doesn't take a genius to notice - hell, Luke says it during the film - that having two people fly right behind the point man during the trench run, making no attempt to disrupt their attackers, is real dumb. Yes, let's just fly one ship down there and - oh, they blew it up. Let's try that again - oh wait it happened again. The other fighters are bait to keep the guns off of the bomber. Or, assuming something goes wrong, to take his place if need be, because they're working under a real, real tight deadline with catastrophic consequences. Luke and Wedge and the other dude going into the trench is a last-ditch, unplanned thing after the Y-Wings fail - thus why the shot repeats of entering the trench, and why they mention going in at top speed. The whole plan is "distract the enemy long enough to get at least one guy down the trench to squeeze off the shot needed". So the fighters keep the TIEs busy, and the bombers drop in as teams of three - to minimize the time they're out there, because again, there's a (literal) doomsday clock ticking. And that's why, of course, everything goes wrong. This is how tension is built. Every best effort and best idea they have fumbles or fails completely and puts everything down to a miracle shot by a farmboy whose whole backup is two guys, one of which is blown up and the other is forced to pull away.
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Feb 24, 2016 06:25
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It would probably be more effective at distracting the enemy if the escorts found a way to use their weapons, like, at all. Protecting the lead guy should not preclude maneuvering. In fact, we get a great example of just how useful it is when Luke is saved not by the guys flying pointlessly behind him, but by a guy who was never flying in the trench at all. And that's without raising the question of why they thought trying to fire torpedo-ish weapons into a hole should be done from a 90 degree angle. It's all so nonsensical that I'm sure Lucas must be copying some other film, but to me that seems like a dumb thing to do. And there is no tension, and can be no tension, because anyone who isn't a literal child knows that Luke is the hero, and that he's going to save the day.
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Feb 24, 2016 06:43
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Tactical realism in Star Wars thread.
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Feb 24, 2016 06:45
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PittTheElder posted:It's all so nonsensical that I'm sure Lucas must be copying some other film Dambusters,I believe.
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Feb 24, 2016 06:55
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Literal children know Luke's gonna pull it off at the end, the same way they know Bugs is never actually going to get caught and cooked or stuffed by Elmer Fudd or Yosemite Sam or a 1930s racist caricature of an African tribesman. But literal children don't care and neither do most adults, because of course he is, 90% of the joy is how close to the precipice will the hero get before he manages to succeed, and how will he stop from tumbling over to his doom. Nobody thinks Indy's going to lose to the Nazis, either, the entire enjoyment, and the mystery of it is, how's he gonna do it? against odds that are not only building against him, but changing and shifting and forcing changes in plan.
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Feb 24, 2016 07:12
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VolticSurge posted:Dambusters,I believe. Yep. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNdb03Hw18M
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Feb 24, 2016 07:15
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The Cameo posted:Nobody thinks Indy's going to lose to the Nazis, either, This is a poor example because Indy actual does lose to the Nazi's in the first movie.
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Feb 24, 2016 07:25
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That's incredible, thanks for posting it, though it's nice to see that the coolest shot in the sequence, the approach to the canyon ending with the camera wildly bouncing around, wasn't a lift. edit: At least not a lift from that. Sir Kodiak fucked around with this message at 07:29 on Feb 24, 2016 |
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Feb 24, 2016 07:26
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Death Star 2 really only has Sheev's garage and Sheev's penthouse. It doesn't stand on its own. It is, as far as the film is concerned, a giant throne for Sheev to shoot lasers from, as he quite literally parallels in what he does to Luke, both of which are surprises of being full operation. Outside of the basic "it is a repetition of a plot device we have seen early" problem, I think the problem with it is that when only the OT exists, the audience understands that Death Star = Laser Blasts so it parallels less well with the Emperor who we have no idea has that ability. while When viewed with the PT the parallelism is more obvious; the last time we see the Emperor use lightning he is defeated by it implying he can no longer use it. His ability to pull it out on Luke, therefore, retains the same surprise as the Death Star II being fully operational. Also in my opinion if ROTJ were two films, one being scenes with Luke and one being scenes sans-Luke the Luke film would be the #1 Star Wars film and the sans-Luke would be dead-goddamn last. Barudak fucked around with this message at 07:32 on Feb 24, 2016 |
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Feb 24, 2016 07:26
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Schwarzwald posted:This is a poor example because Indy actual does lose to the Nazi's in the first movie. Lose = Death. So he doesn't lose.
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Feb 24, 2016 08:05
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PittTheElder posted:And there is no tension, and can be no tension, because anyone who isn't a literal child knows that Luke is the hero, and that he's going to save the day.
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Feb 24, 2016 08:44
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Barudak posted:It is, as far as the film is concerned, a giant throne for Sheev to shoot lasers from, as he quite literally parallels in what he does to Luke, both of which are surprises of being full operation. Outside of the basic "it is a repetition of a plot device we have seen early" problem, I think the problem with it is that when only the OT exists, the audience understands that Death Star = Laser Blasts so it parallels less well with the Emperor who we have no idea has that ability. while When viewed with the PT the parallelism is more obvious; the last time we see the Emperor use lightning he is defeated by it implying he can no longer use it. His ability to pull it out on Luke, therefore, retains the same surprise as the Death Star II being fully operational. Even so, the big issue with saying "Deathstar 2 represents Sheev" is that, well, what does Sheev represent? That sort of self-referentiality isn't interesting. Frankly, the Luke (sub)plot of Episode 6 is overpraised. It's intertwined with the poo poo outside, and frequently misinterpreted anyways. People invariably focus all their attention on killing Sheev, for example. It's so bad that Lucas made a trilogy of films criticizing it, while Disney has taken great pains to erase it from history - pretending it never happened.
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Feb 24, 2016 09:09
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Hat Thoughts posted:That's not how it works dude It's so tense, every single image has so much going on.
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Feb 24, 2016 14:12
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Cnut the Great posted:So, moving on to a new topic-- That's the entire point. When the Falcon gets swallowed up, the protagonists immediately think that this is the First Order doing this. But the ship itself is visually indistinct which doesn't mesh with anything that we've seen of the First Order during the first act. These motherfuckers want you to know it's them, an unmarked transport isn't their game. The first thing I thought when I saw that ship was simply "It's not the First Order," which visually sets up the surprise of Han and Chewie showing up by creating a dissonance between what the audience suspects and what the protagonists think. It gels even better with Han as he first appears who is a former General of the Republic military who's now just an indistinct person in the background of the galaxy. His move to the Falcon indicates his return to the forefront. I really like it.
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Feb 24, 2016 14:56
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I had to google "Sheev" the first time I saw you legion of nerds using it instead of Palpatine for whatever reason like y'all are on some kind of first-name-basis with the loving Emperor.
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Feb 24, 2016 15:57
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Parachute posted:I had to google "Sheev" the first time I saw you legion of nerds using it instead of Palpatine for whatever reason like y'all are on some kind of first-name-basis with the loving Emperor. It's a funny name
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Feb 24, 2016 16:16
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Parachute posted:I had to google "Sheev" the first time I saw you legion of nerds using it instead of Palpatine for whatever reason like y'all are on some kind of first-name-basis with the loving Emperor. It was Lucas's very last attempt on making GBS threads on SW before Disney took over the franchise.
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Feb 24, 2016 17:12
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Yorkshire Tea posted:That's the entire point. Ah, so everything is bad on purpose. I see. You know, in ANH, Lucas managed to make the Lars homestead come across as a dreary and monotonous place while still giving it a clear personality and design sense. The two aren't mutually exclusive. You should never bore your audience. You can communicate that something is boring within the world of the film without literally boring the audience sitting in the theater. In fact, that's what you must do. The audience should never lose interest in what's being shown on the screen. The goal is to make them feel the characters' boredom, not their own. I've personally never made the "It's bad on purpose" argument in defense of the prequels, because I think it's a bad argument.
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Feb 24, 2016 17:17
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Myrddin_Emrys posted:It was Lucas's very last attempt on making GBS threads on SW before Disney took over the franchise. Supreme Leader Snoke.
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Feb 24, 2016 17:17
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Myrddin_Emrys posted:It was Lucas's very last attempt on making GBS threads on SW before Disney took over the franchise. Cnut the Great posted:Supreme Leader Snoke. Poe Dameron 
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Feb 24, 2016 17:21
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I just found out I have a friend on the script department of episode 8. I'd pump them for info but I'm sure a Disney mole is shadowing their every move.
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Feb 24, 2016 17:23
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Mowglis Haircut posted:I just found out I have a friend on the script department of episode 8. I'd pump them for info but I'm sure a Disney mole is shadowing their every move. Next time you guys hangout, look for the glowing red dot that follows their head around.
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Feb 24, 2016 17:33
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Emperor Steve. I like it.
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Feb 24, 2016 17:44
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Cnut the Great posted:Ah, so everything is bad on purpose. I see. I'm unclear as to where I said "Visually indistinct" is bad. I'm also unsure as to why it's boring. I mean I felt at least some tension when it looked like Rey and Finn were going to gas Han and Chewie.
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Feb 24, 2016 18:17
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Myrddin_Emrys posted:It was Lucas's very last attempt on making GBS threads on SW before Disney took over the franchise. Wasn't Sheev from a book in the new EU, so it would have had nothing to do with Lucas at all.
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Feb 24, 2016 18:34
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TFA was so good that people need to grasp at the tiniest straws known to man to bring it down.
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Feb 24, 2016 19:27
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Vintersorg posted:TFA was so good that people need to grasp at the tiniest straws known to man to bring it down. Because what's better than a Death Star, or another Death Star? ANOTHER other Death Star, but instead of being, like, the size of a moon, it's the size of a PLANET! --TFA scriptwriter, age 8
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Feb 24, 2016 19:32
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homullus posted:Because what's better than a Death Star, or another Death Star? ANOTHER other Death Star, but instead of being, like, the size of a moon, it's the size of a PLANET! Just watch Colin Trevorrow give us a literal Star of Death in Episode IX.
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Feb 24, 2016 19:33
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homullus posted:Because what's better than a Death Star, or another Death Star? ANOTHER other Death Star, but instead of being, like, the size of a moon, it's the size of a PLANET! It worked out pretty well until it blew up again.
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Feb 24, 2016 19:34
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Star Wars isnt Star Wars without pulpy bullshit. Deal with it.
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Feb 24, 2016 19:36
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Vintersorg posted:Star Wars isnt Star Wars without pulpy bullshit. Deal with it. So, this is true, right? But the problem is not that it's pulpy bullshit, the problem is that it was nigh meaningless. People leave the movie not even knowing what planet got starkilled, and even once you find out, it doesn't matter, because no characters are from there, no pulpy Star Wars bullshit takes place there, and Starkiller is also gone by the end. As SMG pointed out, it's a disjointed and vague location, that does something very like what we've seen before, to a planet we don't care about AT ALL, because we've never heard of it. No, I am not claiming we need to be shown that blowing up entire planets full of people is bad to believe it, but I am claiming that no work at all was put into making it an interesting thing. Are you . . . are you seriously telling me that you think that Yet Another Death Star was a good idea in TFA?
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Feb 24, 2016 19:46
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Vintersorg posted:Star Wars isnt Star Wars without pulpy bullshit. Deal with it. Actually, Star Wars wasn't bullshit. It had always been well-executed.
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Feb 24, 2016 19:50
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Sir Kodiak posted:Just watch Colin Trevorrow give us a literal Star of Death in Episode IX. It's a star they've attached engines to somehow, and they fly it around gobbling up planets like a hungry hungry hippo.
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Feb 24, 2016 19:51
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homullus posted:Because what's better than a Death Star, or another Death Star? ANOTHER other Death Star, but instead of being, like, the size of a moon, it's the size of a PLANET! "We had an assistant named JJ Abrams. One day last summer he walked into our office and said, 'You know that Death Star, who Luke and everyone blows up? The one that the Empire built in A New Hope and again in Return of the Jedi?' 'Yeah?' 'Well,' said JJ, doesn't it make sense that the Empire would build another one? What else are they going to do?' 'You're right,' we said. 'That does make sense.' 'And what if this Death Star was actually the size of a planet?' This year, JJ Abrams is a writer on the film."
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Feb 24, 2016 19:52
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homullus posted:So, this is true, right? But the problem is not that it's pulpy bullshit, the problem is that it was nigh meaningless. People leave the movie not even knowing what planet got starkilled, and even once you find out, it doesn't matter, because no characters are from there, no pulpy Star Wars bullshit takes place there, and Starkiller is also gone by the end. As SMG pointed out, it's a disjointed and vague location, that does something very like what we've seen before, to a planet we don't care about AT ALL, because we've never heard of it. No, I am not claiming we need to be shown that blowing up entire planets full of people is bad to believe it, but I am claiming that no work at all was put into making it an interesting thing. I don't think it was a bad idea and maybe they could have done something else but I'll live with it. Maybe they thought it would have been tougher to kill? The only reason our heroes stood a chance is because someone broke free of the brainwashing and led them to the main parts. Maybe it was always there in RoTJ? None of that is important though.
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Feb 24, 2016 20:01
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