|
oohhboy posted:
Hahha man this is a pretty outrageous pot kettle even by the standards of this thread
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2018 15:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 11, 2024 08:35 |
|
|
Yeah, I don't think you can gaslight this thread that far about US foreign policy. We know the US very often resorts to naked power to get what it wants. . You can get into a "whataboutism" contest, but it is unnecessary, the stakes are laid out and China is making in all honesty logical choices given its options. Are they laudable? Perhaps not but they do make strategic sense. It is fine to talk about morality, just not after you pick a side. Btw, as far as the EU goes (and arguably Taiwan as well) they have been slowly slipping away from the US' orbit not because theory on international relations fundamentally changed but that the economic balance of power did. It isn't a battle of good and evil, it is a battle over power. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Jan 28, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2018 16:37
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sko0oEKoHk
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2018 16:51
|
|
|
[x] did lol
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2018 17:40
|
|
|
oohhboy posted:While it is true in International relations might can make right, building relationships are far stronger that any single country standing alone. There is a reason the US went to all that trouble building up trade and defence pacts with everyone as US power alone is not enough for it to have the global reach it does. lmao somebody ligated all the dang arteries to your brain love these perfectly smooth oxygen free brain takes
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2018 18:17
|
|
|
I dunno there is a kernel of truth to the soft power argument but A, you need force to back it all up and B, Donald Trump is the president of the United States so at this point any relationships are tenuous at best. China is absolutely making logical moves given the state of things in their corner of the world. And when they have DJT to compare themselves to they will sound a lot more credible to whoever is listening.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2018 18:25
|
|
|
therobit posted:I dunno there is a kernel of truth to the soft power argument but A, you need force to back it all up and B, Donald Trump is the president of the United States so at this point any relationships are tenuous at best. American soft power is colluding with other western european governments to assassinate politicians they don't like and overthrow regimes that demand sovereignty and independence from white imperialist powers. This is why spooks and ex-spooks like bloodnose get so mad about china, because that is one country that makes moves for itself and not because a bunch of western capitalists told them to.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2018 18:40
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:Btw, as far as the EU goes (and arguably Taiwan as well) they have been slowly slipping away from the US' orbit not because theory on international relations fundamentally changed but that the economic balance of power did. Whoa is it 2010 again? Because as of 2018 the EU has almost as many issues with China as the US does and the notion that Taiwan's position has changed is laughable.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2018 19:04
|
|
|
Fojar38 posted:Whoa is it 2010 again? Because as of 2018 the EU has almost as many issues with China as the US does and the notion that Taiwan's position has changed is laughable. Taiwan has only become more economically intertwined with China, there is really no way for them to declare independence even with a pro-independence party in power. They are still western-aligned, but it is likely there are going to become "Finlandized" i.e they are going to have to play nice with Beijing. If the EU has as many issues with the US as with China, it is a net loss for the United States. Also, the soft-power argument has become pretty hazy in a world of multi-national corporations that really don't have a loyalty to any state. Disney, Coke, and Goldman Sachs are happy to do business anywhere they like. There are as many Disney parks under Beijing (essentially) as DC. Moreover, much of the ideological pull of American-style liberal democracy has become greatly diminished over the years, and only continues to do so (much of it self caused). Ardennes fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Jan 28, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2018 19:14
|
|
|
Peven Stan posted:American soft power is colluding with other western european governments to assassinate politicians they don't like and overthrow regimes that demand sovereignty and independence from white imperialist powers. Cool the guy who thinks the Vietnamese are jungle savages has opinions again.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2018 19:30
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:Taiwan has only become more economically intertwined with China, there is really no way for them to declare independence even with a pro-independence party in power. They are still western-aligned, but it is likely there are going to become "Finlandized" i.e they are going to have to play nice with Beijing. And yet the political situation has shifted further from Beijing and more towards the US as of late because despite their economic ties with China, Beijing still routinely threatens and loses its poo poo over the smallest things. Economic clout can only push so far when you constantly act like a hyper-nationalist belligerent and the international situation in East Asia vis-a-vis China is a living testament to that. quote:If the EU has as many issues with the US as with China, it is a net loss for the United States. I think you misinterpreted my statement. Both the US and the EU have issues with China that they do not have with each other, and between the US and EU, both still make up over half the global economy by themselves, which is to say nothing about the intercontinental security alliance. quote:Also, the soft-power argument has become pretty hazy in a world of multi-national corporations that really don't have a loyalty to any state. Disney, Coke, and Goldman Sachs are happy to do business anywhere they like. There are as many Disney parks under Beijing (essentially) as DC. Moreover, much of the ideological pull of American-style liberal democracy has become greatly diminished over the years, and only continues to do so (much of it self caused). While its true that multi-national corporations are a relatively recent development in IR theory that need to be accounted for, Disney, Coke, and Goldman Sachs still ultimately answer to the US government. How much influence they themselves have on the US government is the question.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2018 19:30
|
|
|
Fojar38 posted:And yet the political situation has shifted further from Beijing and more towards the US as of late because despite their economic ties with China, Beijing still routinely threatens and loses its poo poo over the smallest things. Economic clout can only push so far when you constantly act like a hyper-nationalist belligerent and the international situation in East Asia vis-a-vis China is a living testament to that. Every day that goes by where cross-strait trade increases only gives the Chinese more leverage. Also, it is pretty likely the KMT will be back in power. quote:I think you misinterpreted my statement. Both the US and the EU have issues with China that they do not have with each other, and between the US and EU, both still make up over half the global economy by themselves, which is to say nothing about the intercontinental security alliance. The EU has clearly been drifting farther from US policy, and while the EU and US are still closer than with each than China (obviously) I could see the EU drifting into being more of a neutral partner as China builds out its infrastructure (and solidifies its alliance with Russia). quote:While its true that multi-national corporations are a relatively recent development in IR theory that need to be accounted for, Disney, Coke, and Goldman Sachs still ultimately answer to the US government. How much influence they themselves have on the US government is the question. The ultimate answer is they do what they want because they have the cash to do so, and China is such a huge market they will suffer in order to get access. The US market isn't enough for multi-nationals and there really isn't a reason for them to politically side with the US (and the US wouldn't actually punish them anyway because they have way too much influence over it).
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2018 19:45
|
|
|
therobit posted:China is absolutely making logical moves Spoken as a person who has never had any contact with mainland China
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2018 19:56
|
|
|
From a realpolitik perspective there isn't really an upside for why China should acquiesces to an independent Tibet; from their view it's been a done deal since forever and they get every economic concern addressed this way. At best the argument is an independent Tibet there would be no change? But the number of downsides and scenarios where it puts China into a greater and greater degree of vulnerability or disadvantage just increases one after another doesn't it? Considering disputes like softwood lumber between the US and its closest ally isn't it a tall order to suggest that if only China knew how to deal with its neighbors in good faith then everything would be fine?
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2018 20:12
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:From a realpolitik perspective there isn't really an upside for why China should acquiesces to an independent Tibet; from their view it's been a done deal since forever and they get every economic concern addressed this way. At best the argument is an independent Tibet there would be no change? But the number of downsides and scenarios where it puts China into a greater and greater degree of vulnerability or disadvantage just increases one after another doesn't it? Considering disputes like softwood lumber between the US and its closest ally isn't it a tall order to suggest that if only China knew how to deal with its neighbors in good faith then everything would be fine? Asking for an independent tibet is like demanding an independent texas. It's not going to happen. Both the CCP and the nationalists in Taiwan claim that as part of their territory.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2018 21:41
|
|
|
Peven Stan posted:Asking for an independent tibet is like demanding an independent texas. It's not going to happen. Both the CCP and the nationalists in Taiwan claim that as part of their territory. I don't think it's an honest argument to say that there's some de facto policy on paper by the KMT* that places Tibet is a part of China (Which believe me is a huge change from where I stood as a Sinoboo 12 years ago); though it does make sense to say that even if the KMT won the civil war in some gay Buddhist Chiang Kai Shek fantasy then just likely India the KMT would've also taken steps to solidify control over Tibet to solidify the border against India (which had ties and assistance from the USSR while Chiang was ever increasingly leaning towards the US). The politics and dynamics of the cold war make it a certainty. A more democratic China should the KMT go through the same reforms they did in the 80's is still a China with a majority Han population that has some deep resentments about the way England carved tibet into it's sphere in the 19th century which would've inherited the same geopolitical decisions made by an authoritarian KMT. A closer analogy might be the various Indian reserves/territories in the US and Canada, as Texas has nominally more independence and autonomy as a US State than Tibet has as an "Autonomous Region". *Unless the KMT have seriously some ideal that peaceful unification can happen where they're allowed to compete for offices on the mainland in fair elections in which case they don't say anything different about Tibet on the off chance they get a turn to rule Tibet.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2018 22:00
|
|
|
I feel like you guys are seriously overthinking this
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2018 22:08
|
|
|
Them's fighting words for us nerds.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2018 22:17
|
|
|
Goddamn. I've never been called a spook before. That's some old school racist stuff and I'm not even black. Anyway for decades now the Dalai Lama and his faction have been advocating not for independence from China but a truly autonomous region along the lines of Hong Kong. Although I don't know if they've revised that position as Hong Kong continues to deteriorate. They've disqualified a by-election candidate from Demosisto because her party used the word "self-determination." Presumably this means Demosisto will never be allowed to field candidates but it hasn't been applied to anyone other than Agnes Chow yet.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2018 23:21
|
|
|
Free Hawaii
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2018 23:32
|
|
|
Bloodnose posted:Goddamn. I've never been called a spook before. That's some old school racist stuff and I'm not even black. Maybe because you're not black but a former state department goon the other meaning applies to you???
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2018 23:54
|
|
|
Bloodnose posted:Goddamn. I've never been called a spook before. That's some old school racist stuff and I'm not even black. peven stan hates all people who are poc other than the han unless it’s rhetorically convenient to him
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2018 23:55
|
|
|
stone cold posted:peven stan hates all people who are poc other than the han unless it’s rhetorically convenient to him another one of D&D's pet liberal asians come to smear me
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2018 00:02
|
|
|
Peven Stan posted:another one of D&D's pet liberal asians come to smear me dude im mostly white is it really a smear if it’s true fishmech posted:Cool the guy who thinks the Vietnamese are jungle savages has opinions again. like that’s a thing you said and unlike ali wong, you’re not vietnamese you’re like white people quoting black comedians saying the n word
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2018 00:22
|
|
|
stone cold posted:
ali wong is literally ethnically chinese, try again stone cold posted:
amuses me greatly that liberal asians like you spend virtually all your time and effort attacking other asian people and taking bullets for whites
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2018 00:28
|
|
|
omg it’s battle of the wumaos with fojar yelling from the sidelines, this could not be any better
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2018 01:32
|
|
|
I have blond hair and blue eyes AND I identify as someone with blond hair and blue eyes. lol owned
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2018 01:36
|
|
|
Peven Stan posted:ali wong is literally ethnically chinese, try again quote:Wong was born in the Pacific Heights neighborhood of San Francisco, California. Her father, Adolphus Wong, is an American-born Chinese anesthesiologist. Her mother, Tam "Tammy" Wong, emigrated in 1960 to the United States from Huế, Vietnam.[5][6] She is the youngest of four children.  googling: takes two seconds
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2018 01:37
|
|
|
Before I know if annexing countries and ethnically cleaning them is good or bad I really need everyone to lay their genealogy out on the table to know who has the most pure and correct opinions.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2018 01:41
|
|
|
Jesus loving Christ, can't believe I'm on the side of "lol American Foreign policy is righteous" this time. God dammit Ohhhhhhboy, why do you have to make the CCP haters look retarded. The Great Autismo! posted:I have blond hair and blue eyes AND I identify as someone with blond hair and blue eyes. lol owned BUT HOW ABOUT YOUR WIFE AND KIDS? IT'S NOT THE SAME ANYMORE
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2018 01:45
|
|
|
quick poll: who is more smoothbrained: oohhboy or peven stan thanks and god bless
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2018 01:46
|
|
|
Bloodnose posted:Goddamn. I've never been called a spook before. That's some old school racist stuff and I'm not even black. Someone please shoot me. Instead of pressuring Beijing maybe we need to pressure the Pandems because they are starting to suck. Demosisto is alright, but the new localists faction are inept politically.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2018 01:47
|
|
|
stone cold posted:lmao their username is the verbal response i make to all their posts
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2018 02:12
|
|
|
"don't bring up irrelevant poo poo from posters' lives or histories" goes both ways, peven stan
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2018 02:13
|
|
|
Look, some people think it’s hosed up for Peven to call someone a spook,, but from his point of view he’s just calling a spade a spade.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2018 02:49
|
|
|
No one in this thread would give a poo poo about Tibet if the issue wasn't cynically exploited for American propaganda during the Cold War.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2018 03:24
|
|
|
I've advocated for Tibetan autonomy since before Marx was born.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2018 03:43
|
|
|
Bathtub Cheese posted:No one in this thread would give a poo poo about Tibet if the issue wasn't cynically exploited for American propaganda during the Cold War. Hapa-Child, I thought you were only allowed one account here.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2018 04:09
|
|
|
caberham posted:BUT HOW ABOUT YOUR WIFE AND KIDS? IT'S NOT THE SAME ANYMORE because im not an authoritarian ayran supremacist, I actually don't give a poo poo about what color hair my wife and son have, or what color of eyes they have. lol
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2018 05:15
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 11, 2024 08:35 |
|
|
Uh I don't really care for P. Stan's opinions but spook has another colloquial meaning that means spy or government agent. I assume this is what he meant when he said "spooks and former spooks. "
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2018 05:52
|
|