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Kobold Press made their attempt at a full-BAB Shapeshifter back in 2013 with the "Skin-Changer" class: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/kobold-press-open-design/spell-less-ranger/skin-changer/ I only got word since apparently they're reprinting a book of it. I am by no means a CharOp expert, but it does pass my very low bar of "can Shapeshift at level 1"
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Nov 20, 2017 11:50
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Well Skin-Changer does not get Aspects, but hey can just wear magic items that provide the same bonuses eventually. Skin-Changer does not get natural attacks in normal form. So they will need to use a weapon early on, but at those levels the Shifter would have been doing 1d4 anyway so whatever. Skin-Changer does not get a Wis to AC bonus or anything, they do get medium armor and shields so will probably need those early on, and maybe invest in Wild versions of those later on to keep them when shapeshifted. Skin-Changer can change at 2nd level 1/day, but only for 10 minutes/level. Then again the Shifter cannot change shape until 4th. At 4th the Skin-Changer's change shape ability moves up to 1/hour per level, so at the point Shifter gets theirs the Skin-Changer has the same duration. At this point the Skin-Changer is only slightly worse at a combat form than the Shifter, since the Shifter's would be Beast Shape II and thus give them a Pounce option. That said the Skin-Changer would have a Competence bonus to attack and damage with natural attacks. At 6th level Skin-Changer's change shape now works like Beast Shape II, and it scales beyond that. At this point they are clearly better than the Shifter, only really losing out on the Wis to AC but eventually get natural armor increases, and the Aspects but those mostly give benefits equivalent to magic items that they can pick up. The Skin-Changer gets pretty much everything non aspect related the Shifter gets, and so much more. It does get At Will shape change at 20th.
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Nov 20, 2017 20:13
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Why didn't paizo just wholesale steal the eidolon system for the shifter and reflavour it as a 'build your own shapeshift'.
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Nov 20, 2017 20:45
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berenzen posted:Why didn't paizo just wholesale steal the eidolon system for the shifter and reflavour it as a 'build your own shapeshift'. Remember that they already banned the synthesist summoner in PFS because it made martials look bad, despite it being objectively weaker than the normal summoner.
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Nov 20, 2017 21:02
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gradenko_2000 posted:I am by no means a CharOp expert, but it does pass my very low bar of "can Shapeshift at level 1"
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Nov 20, 2017 21:30
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So which book is the new shotgun archetype going to be in? I didn't see anything that looked like it in UW. Commando seems... interesting.
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Nov 20, 2017 22:31
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Nomadic Scholar posted:So which book is the new shotgun archetype going to be in? I didn't see anything that looked like it in UW. Commando seems... interesting. People of the Wastes?
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Nov 20, 2017 22:37
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Huh so the linked Skin-Changer is a Ranger archetype I believe, and soon will come out a book with an actual Skin-Changer class. I think made by the same company. Kind of curious how similar and how different they will be.
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Nov 20, 2017 23:46
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Has anyone checked out the races in Starfinder's alien archive? I'm trying to make a soldier and the Barathu seem really interesting/versatile... a flying soldier seems really cool
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Nov 21, 2017 00:03
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Truecon420 posted:Has anyone checked out the races in Starfinder's alien archive? I'm trying to make a soldier and the Barathu seem really interesting/versatile... a flying soldier seems really cool Alien Archive races tend to have much stronger ability score arrays than the core races, and be weirder to boot, instead of just nothing but bargain bin Guardians of the Galaxy.
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Nov 21, 2017 00:05
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They are interesting, too bad there doesn't seem to be a way to grow into a full one instead of an early stage one. Not entirely sure how many limbs they have or what they can wear or carry though.
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Nov 21, 2017 00:09
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Ryuujin posted:They are interesting, too bad there doesn't seem to be a way to grow into a full one instead of an early stage one. Not entirely sure how many limbs they have or what they can wear or carry though. I think given how malleable they are, i would assume they could at least carry 2 arms worth of stuff and wear armor, but i guess it depends on GM. I was thinking of going melee focused solider. Vesk currently, love the +1 ac. I''m also considering dragonkin with their breath/flying and interesting intiative bonus, Nuards w/ the charge bonuses and 40 move speend and Shobads with the 40 move speed and 4 arms. Any thoughts for optimization? do you think barathu would be good?
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Nov 21, 2017 00:19
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For anyone who's looking for a shapeshifter class, there's one in Spheres of Power called the Shifter as well. Not sure how well it plays, but the fact that you don't get hr/cl when spending an SP til really late seems a bit iffy.
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Nov 21, 2017 07:00
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Someone on reddit noticed the Oozemorph's slime body was (Su) but everything else at level 1 was (Ex), so if you dip a level into oozemorph than teach someone druidic you lose the penalties of being an ooze, but keep the abilities to squeeze through keyholes and form natural weapons with your body. 
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Nov 22, 2017 17:11
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Can I get a hand building a character? Just looking at the character options is exhausting. I wouldn't care, but my GM tells me the 3.5 "min-max or gently caress you" tradition has just gotten stronger over the years. We're playing a printed campaign about a crusade near Suggestions?
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Nov 22, 2017 17:14
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I wouldn't worry too much about getting into the weeds with archetypes unless you want to. Plain out of the box cleric is perfectly effective. It's weaker classes that require tons of optimization and system mastery to make them work. (Also: Pathfinder's published adventure paths generally aren't tough enough to require massive optimization, so your DM may be exaggerating. Of course, we have no idea what changes your DM might have made.)
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Nov 22, 2017 17:29
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Yeah, playing a Cleric next to a Monk and Cavalier is going to be a struggle against the rules to not outshine them, not because you want to be a showboat, but because you're going to have so many more tools to work with, even if they're throwing themselves into the minigame and you aren't. So I'd advise a combination of (1) just doing whatever's fun for you - what is a character concept that sounds cool? - and (2) buffing your allies so they get to be cool.
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Nov 22, 2017 18:26
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Don't read this, I ride bikes: Don't forget the AP he's talking about is Wrath of the Righteous, so that probably means mythic rules and everything goes way out the window. Pretty much everyone's gonna be on 'roids. I ride bikes, check with your GM and your other party members if you need a paladin. There's a lot of content in that AP that's specifically built for having a paladin of Iomedae in the party, and it's a shame to miss out if you don't have one. Also ask your GM if they're changing the adventures to make them harder; if not, don't worry about it. That AP is notable for getting quite easy.
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Nov 22, 2017 18:40
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Arivia posted:I ride bikes, check with your GM and your other party members if you need a paladin. There's a lot of content in that AP that's specifically built for having a paladin of Iomedae in the party, and it's a shame to miss out if you don't have one. Also ask your GM if they're changing the adventures to make them harder; if not, don't worry about it. That AP is notable for getting quite easy. Why would they build it specifically for a Paladin and not just any LG follower of Iomedae (or at the worst, any warrior-follower)?
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Nov 22, 2017 19:41
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I can't even remember what archetypes the cleric has. Regular cleric 20 is perfectly fine. What sort of cleric do you want to play, anyway?
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Nov 22, 2017 20:10
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Regular cleric is fine, I think Ecclesitheurge is stronger if you want to be spell focused and wanna min/max. They got a Cleric style Arcane Bond, it's kinda gross. You gotta know the Cleric spell list super well for Ecclesitheurge to be worth it though.
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Nov 22, 2017 20:21
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Nihilarian posted:I can't even remember what archetypes the cleric has. Regular cleric 20 is perfectly fine. Semi-paladin. I'm seriously considering Heavy Armor/Tower Shield prof for level 1. I remember clerics being absolutely bonkers in 3 and 3.5, which is why I immediately drew towards it. I know this GM a bit - most of his gaming stories are about ridiculous characters with game breaking antics. Not sure if that's how he rolls as a GM or not, though. I wanted to play a background with being born in a village near enemy territory. A strong community of people used to hardship, having to defend their things from the odd creature and drunken soldier alike. A hungry scouting detachment decides to "procure" our grain stores, and the shouting/pushing match escalates into full on pillaging. I'm orphaned and end up on the streets of a nearby town. I come to idealize the soldiery and their power, signing up for a mercenary group at 14. I quickly learn that soldiers are just tools, and that the real power is war itself, that war dictates the fates of men even in the peace that follows. I dedicate myself wholly to learning to wield that power, as generals, kings, and gods do. Really I just didn't know any of the gods, so I went with a cleric who worships a concept. I'm leaning LN, though the character considers war to be TN. Also it was really hard not to read that spoiler. Heh.
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Nov 22, 2017 20:41
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ChrisAsmadi posted:Why would they build it specifically for a Paladin and not just any LG follower of Iomedae (or at the worst, any warrior-follower)? Because this is an adventure path about holy crusaders taking war to the demons? If this doesn't make sense for a paladin, what does? @I ride bikes: Go with Iomedae as your patron deity and go LG. It'll help you out in the AP and she's a very simple deity: sword bad things. No gotchas just righteous wrath.
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Nov 22, 2017 21:47
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Oligopsony posted:Yeah, playing a Cleric next to a Monk and Cavalier is going to be a struggle against the rules to not outshine them, Kensai is a Magus archetype, not Monk.
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Nov 22, 2017 22:03
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If you want to be a face-smashy cleric, you might want to take a look at the warpriest class -- it's kind of an intermediate step between cleric and paladin, with more spellcasting power than a paladin and more face-smashing than a cleric. Plus you wouldn't have to spend a feat to get heavy armor.
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Nov 22, 2017 23:45
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ChrisAsmadi posted:Why would they build it specifically for a Paladin and not just any LG follower of Iomedae (or at the worst, any warrior-follower)? Wrath of the Righteous is loaded down with demons and stuff. You know, paladin bonus murder targets.
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Nov 23, 2017 01:29
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Arivia posted:Because this is an adventure path about holy crusaders taking war to the demons? If this doesn't make sense for a paladin, what does? No, no, my point is that why is the bonus stuff just for Paladins and not, say, a Warpriest or Inquisitor of Iomedae (or any other warrior follower of Iomedae, like a Cavalier, for that matter)? It seems like a weird restriction when there's a whole bunch of "divine warrior" classes or classes that could be a devout warrior.
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Nov 23, 2017 01:34
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ChrisAsmadi posted:No, no, my point is that why is the bonus stuff just for Paladins and not, say, a Warpriest or Inquisitor of Iomedae (or any other warrior follower of Iomedae, like a Cavalier, for that matter)? Because a paladin is specifically a holy warrior. That’s the class’s identity and the AP trades on that. Many classes could consider themselves a devout warrior but do not have the purity and dedication a paladin has.
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Nov 23, 2017 01:38
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ChrisAsmadi posted:No, no, my point is that why is the bonus stuff just for Paladins and not, say, a Warpriest or Inquisitor of Iomedae (or any other warrior follower of Iomedae, like a Cavalier, for that matter)? Because that's kinda the schtick of the Paladin? Yeah other classes can and do fight evil, but, like, "ooohhh theres some evil ima get it" is the Paladin bread n butter
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Nov 23, 2017 01:43
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ChrisAsmadi posted:No, no, my point is that why is the bonus stuff just for Paladins and not, say, a Warpriest or Inquisitor of Iomedae (or any other warrior follower of Iomedae, like a Cavalier, for that matter)? Smite Evil is pretty useful when everything is mega evil imo.
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Nov 23, 2017 02:09
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ChrisAsmadi posted:No, no, my point is that why is the bonus stuff just for Paladins and not, say, a Warpriest or Inquisitor of Iomedae (or any other warrior follower of Iomedae, like a Cavalier, for that matter)? If I had to guess? Because paladins are the premiere lawful good evil-fighting holy warriors in the core book and most people are going to go for the obvious option from the core book when they start playing Wrath of the Righteous, and also because most bonuses you'd give a paladin could be adapted for any other particularly holy fighting class without much hassle. Also like half of Wrath of the Righteous came out before the ACG, so they really only had Paladins, Clerics/Oracles (which they can't acknowledge as being just as fighty as paladins or that whole class would suddenly feel pointless) and Inquisitors (which are conceptually a lot more morally grey) to think about as far as character rewards go.
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Nov 23, 2017 02:54
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comrades I think it's possible that there's both A. too much overlap in the "warrior of God" archetype and B. the adventure writers still didn't get to make all of them eligible for it.
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Nov 23, 2017 03:31
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It is a perfect case of a good DM running that AP modifying poo poo on the fly for the party to find it. There is a good amount of really neat poo poo that parties can miss in adventure paths, and taking a little bit of time to let them find it is well worth it. Cleric doesn't need to do deep setup to make it good, it is sort of heavy-holy-warrior/caster straight up and your spells let you cover all the poo poo you need. If you want healer with some other stuff there are some really good base class options without digging into archetypes as well. As someone else said, a lot of the Char-Op stuff with archetypes is more for classes that are mediocre until you dig around more, and that doesn't describe cleric.
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Nov 23, 2017 05:39
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What would be some good variant channels for a paladin?
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Nov 24, 2017 16:57
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Other than the Warpriest I have always preferred the 'Vanilla' Cleric. Medium Armour, Shield and Mace or warhammer, spreading freedom across the realm. Don't take my advice necessarily, my favourite class of all is the basic Bard.
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Nov 26, 2017 09:49
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Shifter is up on pfsrd
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Nov 28, 2017 06:18
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Nihilarian posted:Shifter is up on pfsrd Why does it get WIS to AC and literally nothing else that uses WIS? Why is it worse at shapeshifting than a druid who doesn't cast spells? Why is its status as a full-BAB class noteworthy when it's a natural weapon user and doesn't get iteratives? Why is its pool of forms so limited, both in terms of forms known and forms it can choose from to know? Why is its first-level minor aspect ability "You get Skill Focus as a bonus feat, but only for four minutes per day"? Where are the rest of its class features?
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Nov 28, 2017 21:25
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Dungeon World Druid: "At first level, you can turn into every animal from your home biome, as well as every animal you've met and studied during the adventure." Pathfinder Shifter: "At third level, you still can't turn into an animal. By the time the campaign ends, you'll have turned into a grand total of three different animals."
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Nov 28, 2017 21:29
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Lottery of Babylon posted:Why does it get WIS to AC and literally nothing else that uses WIS? Why do you think nearly everyone but the designers thinks it's too weak?
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Nov 29, 2017 00:31
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Kvantum posted:Why do you think nearly everyone but the designers thinks it's too weak? I expected it to be weak in the sense that the Kineticist is weak, not in the sense that the NPC Warrior class is weak.
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Nov 29, 2017 00:52
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