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I'm kinda torn on Punisher. On one hand it feels really weak and hollow to try to make the typical Punisher story of 'maybe violence is a slow poison that forever taints your soul even if done for noble reasons' between absolute gunporn and a story where the guy shooting everyone is objectively correct to do so. On the other hand the actors are aces and the writers ARE clearly trying. I confess to just being 4 episodes in so maybe it'll pick up but it feels like the review I read that called it 'like tossing a thinky face emoji into a gunfight as if it's a deep point' so far is really accurate. Punisher is a story that needs to be a tragedy, and they clearly are TRYING for that, but a loving intro with a lovingly ejaculating gun and an end credits that's a straight up rain of guns over the Punisher skull kinda feel like they want to have their 'badass action hero' cake and eat it too regardless. Making his enemies SO evil and SO corrupt just turns the message into typical pseudo fascist 'the ends justify the means' kinda things where even if he's a bad man he's doing the HARD CHOICE of mowing down a bunch of people without a trial. That said I'm still watching, and despite feeling like it's trying to find its message for too long I'm still enjoying the characters themselves. The climax of episode 3 was loving hot garbage though. Tell me the big moments like that get better at least.
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Nov 18, 2017 04:36
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achillesforever6 posted:Bought to watch it, but I'm pretty pumped if it keeps that feeling since I'm one of the 10 people that liked the Thomas Jane Punisher (including Thomas Jane) and that also went for a neo-Western feeling 11? I dunno, I liked it too. Have it on DVD on my shelf, in fact.
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Nov 18, 2017 04:54
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Finished marathoning Punisher all day today. I enjoyed it a lot. If you're expecting a show that lives up to the title and credits as a testosterone-addled glorification of war and violence, you'll be disappointed by the Punisher. There are moments of that to be sure, in particular a couple of scenes that play out not unlike a slasher flick with ex special forces as the teenagers and Frank as the mysterious killer, but there's far less violence than you'd probably expect from the Punisher. Outside of a few particular moments, I actually think Daredevil season one is more violent and brutal than this. It's a slow burning plot, in my opinion perhaps the best paced Marvel Netflix stories. Oh it probably could have trimmed back an episode or so, but I think Punisher uses its time the best of any of the Netflix series. I came away with a real neo-Western feel about the whole thing, particularly the Lone Ranger archetype. The real strength of the Punisher, to me, is that it is a brutal examination of the effects war and violence has on people, and does not flinch from depicting American war crimes, actively questioning the validity of war in the Middle East, and calling out how America treats our soldiers at war versus our veterans at home. If you or anyone you love suffers from PTSD, I genuinely advise you to be think about whether you want to watch this show - Frank Castle responds to his war experience in an almost healthy way compared to some of the people on this show. Strange as it sounds for a Punisher story, there's also a sincere emotional delicacy to this story as well - particularly Frank's relationship with the family of Micro. I genuinely want to see Frank stop being the Punisher and find happiness, and there are glimmers of that in this show, glimpses of the husband and father Frank used to be. He's not an irredeemable psychopath, and he wasn't always broken. If there's a weak link in this generally solid lineup of actors and characters, I'd say it's probably Micro. It really says something when Frank Castle is the angel on your shoulder with a better grasp on reality. The big villain is also kind of weak, but my word when he gets the chance to take center stage does he ham the gently caress up and go completely batshit. This is a show about broken people doing broken things, to borrow a phrase, and good Lord did Marvel luck out getting Berenthal for this role and the writers involved. I think the Punisher is a character who's really easy to do really badly, and this series sits comfortably with Daredevil season one and Jessica Jones as a really good (if at times very difficult to watch) time. And there are no ninjas, magic, undead, or magic undead ninjas mentioned anywhere, much less seen. Best guest stars: the two parakeets in episode ten that did not give a gently caress. 
Cythereal fucked around with this message at 05:32 on Nov 18, 2017 |
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Nov 18, 2017 05:29
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Hmm... Do we know when this is supposed to be taking place? I'm seeing weird mix of very modern tech, but then there's a CRT TV with the old style cable boxes with red LEDs. Maybe its like Archer i.e. it takes place when it takes place. EDIT: Hahahaha the end of ep7 is great. Proteus Jones fucked around with this message at 06:00 on Nov 18, 2017 |
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Nov 18, 2017 05:49
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Cythereal posted:Finished marathoning Punisher all day today. I came to post basically 95% this, so I'm just going to say thanks for writing it for me. I will only disagree on Micro, who I felt crushed it. The relationship between him and Frank, and Frank and Micro's family, and Micro's reaction to Frank's relationship to Micro's family... the character dynamics were fantastic. Micro's actor having those long takes where he has to sell his own pain and longing alone in his hideout with only a hidden camera feed to react to. So, so good. I felt the last couple of episodes did stumble a bit, mostly because they had to fulfil their violence quota. Just a bit too drawn out and overlong, I'm not going to object to the level of the violence, just that it would have been more effective for me had it been shorter. I'm going to need to see how this sits with me over time, but right now I feel Punisher is tied with Jessica Jones as best MCU series, just fractionally ahead of Daredevil S1. I actually wish they don't make more seasons because I feel that final scene is such a great place to leave Frank Castle. Let this show have *this* ending please, less is very much more in this case.
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Nov 18, 2017 06:09
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Half way through and this owns Also, holy poo poo PTSD kid
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Nov 18, 2017 06:31
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PTSD kid's storyline is so well done, the actors playing father and son have great chemistry.
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Nov 18, 2017 06:44
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sexpig by night posted:The climax of episode 3 I'm done. It was amazing. like even more than everything else of Marvel has done. What was the ep3 climax everyone is down on, I don't recall anything bad standing out.
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Nov 18, 2017 06:59
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I'm on episode 5 of The Punisher and with all the DHS stuff, I have to wonder how regular federal agents feel about stuff like S.H.I.E.L.D. Also I just want one frazzled agent running around talking about cleaning up after a collapsed building full of dead ninjas even though it would break the tone of the show.
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Nov 18, 2017 07:42
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Oh yeah, it's the same universe, even the same universe as Thor and Hulk fighting on another planet. Which is loving weird, but it is.
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Nov 18, 2017 08:03
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BSam posted:I'm done. It was amazing. like even more than everything else of Marvel has done. Frank's big solo charge into the building. It just felt super poorly cut with a waaaaaaay too on the nose song and just over the top compared to the grounded horror that made the rest of the flashbacks work.
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Nov 18, 2017 08:12
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I just finished episode 1, this thing is already head and shoulders above everything since the first half of daredevil season 2. I want to kiss whoever put Hell broke Luce in the big scene. Perfect song for Castle. I can't help but get the feeling they wanted to either use that or God's Gonna Cut You Down for the the intro credit song, but the score they used isn't bad either.
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Nov 18, 2017 08:17
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Proteus Jones posted:Hmm... Do we know when this is supposed to be taking place? I'm seeing weird mix of very modern tech, but then there's a CRT TV with the old style cable boxes with red LEDs. All of the Defenders shows are taking place in the immediate aftermath of the Avengers, I don't think we're even up to 2013/2014 in universe yet (it's "months" after Frank 'died' in DD2, DD2 was something like a year after DD1 which was half a year after Avengers). also what I think Micro did was just dumpster dive for components rather than, you know, actually buying stuff and interacting with people.
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Nov 18, 2017 08:34
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Party Plane Jones posted:also what I think Micro did was just dumpster dive for components rather than, you know, actually buying stuff and interacting with people. Probably also salvaged whatever was usable around the power station that he could.
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Nov 18, 2017 09:12
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I'm not sure I can do 13 hours of a mixed reviewed MCU show after Iron Fist and The Defenders . At least the new DCU Justice League movie is only two hours.
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Nov 18, 2017 09:37
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pr0p posted:I'm not sure I can do 13 hours of a mixed reviewed MCU show after Iron Fist and The Defenders . At least the new DCU Justice League movie is only two hours. the negative reviews are stupid and bad. this is loving fantastic.
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Nov 18, 2017 09:41
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It's a great show about the military and war, that has no real glorification of violence, a lot of heart, and ends in basically a perfect place. It never does anything but present Frank as deeply flawed, and constantly point out that he was that way even before his family died, and nobody that loves him says he's doing the right thing. At the same time it never gets away from his intrinsic humanity, so you see him as someone that cares deeply and and is utterly destroyed by the things he's did and the things that have been done to him.
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Nov 18, 2017 09:51
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pr0p posted:I'm not sure I can do 13 hours of a mixed reviewed MCU show after Iron Fist and The Defenders . At least the new DCU Justice League movie is only two hours. The lucky thing about The Punisher is that it has absolutely nothing to do with the worst Marvel Netflix shows (Iron Fist, The Defenders) and isn't bogged down in any sort of half-baked mysticism. Its story is a lot more personal and self-contained, like JJ or Luke Cage. I'd give the first episode or two a shot to see if you're into it.
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Nov 18, 2017 09:56
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I'm only on episode 8, but this is at least as good as JJ. there is a ton of humanity and pain here.
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Nov 18, 2017 10:02
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BSam posted:Oh yeah, it's the same universe, even the same universe as Thor and Hulk fighting on another planet. There's a mention of how quickly the city bounced back after 9/11 which seems like a weird thing to say in a universe where entire city blocks were destroyed by alien invaders. edit: I don't think the colonel being slapped around by a dominatrix was from any particular comic. But it definitely came across as something Garth Ennis would write in. nael fucked around with this message at 10:24 on Nov 18, 2017 |
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Nov 18, 2017 10:20
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I am honestly really surprised by this show. They could have gone with a Death Wish-style fantasy about mindlessly gunning down street criminals but they elevated it to something much better. Frank is definitely not a hero- he's not glorified or admired. I am so glad they took this direction instead.
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Nov 18, 2017 10:24
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nael posted:There's a mention of how quickly the city bounced back after 9/11 which seems like a weird thing to say in a universe where entire city blocks were destroyed by alien invaders. that bit is super Garth Ennis. But the thing is, most of this is pretty Garth Ennis. Toned down a bit at times, but the humanity, pain, and brokenness are staples of Garth Ennis's Punisher.
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Nov 18, 2017 10:40
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I really like that this show is fairly self contained, but I'm halfway through episode 10 and what is Daredevil doing while a domestic terrorist is publicly threatening Karen? I didn't finish Defenders though, so that might explain that.
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Nov 18, 2017 13:07
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nael posted:I really like that this show is fairly self contained, but I'm halfway through episode 10 and what is Daredevil doing while a domestic terrorist is publicly threatening Karen? I didn't finish Defenders though, so that might explain that. He's "dead", for plot reasons.
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Nov 18, 2017 13:08
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I have my reservations, but I liked it. As Cythereal pointed out, there are moments where it feels a bit too much like a slasher flick with Frank cast as the heavy. I also didn't love the way torture and war crimes get laid at the feet of "a few bad apples." Still, it's probably the best take anyone could do on a character like Castle, and whatever the shortcomings I think the work that went into the characters, their relationships, and their trauma more than made up for it. The stuff with the various vets, the interactions between Frank and Micro's family, even the half-hazard buddy cop routine that Madani and Stein had going, it was all some of the best stuff they've done with the MCU shows. I wish they would stick to tight, focused character drama because aside from DD1 it feels like whenever they push too hard trying to make these shows into Super Hero Stories (tm), things go off the rails.
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Nov 18, 2017 13:15
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Was excellent all the way through imo, easily the best Marvel show so far (though I still like Jessica Jones better for dumb reasons)
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Nov 18, 2017 13:55
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Only on episode 2, but Punisher is real drat good so far. Easily the best Marvel series since DD 1. Is this also the last one? Kind of sad. Also JJ was good - David Tennant was excellent.
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Nov 18, 2017 14:04
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I’m only on Episode 11 so far, just wanted to note how good 10 is. The scenes with the Senator seem the weakest, but maybe that’s just because we’ve heard all their lines before as part of endless gun debates
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Nov 18, 2017 14:13
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Firstborn posted:Is this also the last one? Last what? There are a bunch of Marvel TV stuff coming up.
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Nov 18, 2017 14:14
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Party Plane Jones posted:also what I think Micro did was just dumpster dive for components rather than, you know, actually buying stuff and interacting with people. I was mostly joking. I was talking about sideplot vet's dad with CRT TV, I should have been more clear. Proteus Jones fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Nov 18, 2017 |
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Nov 18, 2017 14:17
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Pingiivi posted:Last what? There are a bunch of Marvel TV stuff coming up. I thought there was a rumor that it was all moving to Disney's streaming platform when it's launched. I have no idea if there's any truth to that though.
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Nov 18, 2017 14:19
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Proteus Jones posted:I was mostly joking. I noticed that too, seemed weird
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Nov 18, 2017 14:27
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nael posted:I thought there was a rumor that it was all moving to Disney's streaming platform when it's launched. I have no idea if there's any truth to that though. My understanding is that's just the movies. The TV stuff is all over the place, as far as rights and distribution deals goes. Plus Netflix has part ownership over these since their wallet was used to make them.
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Nov 18, 2017 14:28
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It’s cool how the Punisher isn’t “determined, but extreme” in this, he’s a weird dangerous psycho who screams a lot
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Nov 18, 2017 14:36
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Yes I think the existing shows will stay on Netflix but any new MCU tv series will be on Disney’s thing. And four eps in this is a good show. But people are being very generous talking about how deep and meaningful it is, despite the progressive window dressing it’s largely a show about how cool slaughtering people with guns is.
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Nov 18, 2017 14:40
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Ep 8: Man Billy is a nasty as gently caress villain. Just a complete and utter sociopath hiding behind his charm.
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Nov 18, 2017 14:42
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marktheando posted:largely a show about how cool slaughtering people with guns is. Are you watching the same show? Because that's not only the shallowest take, it's the stupidest.
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Nov 18, 2017 14:49
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I really don't get the bad ratings for Punisher. This is probably my favorite of the whole bunch. There's good drama, solid performances from pretty much everyone and some pretty brutal action. Also no tie-ins, mutants or super heroes.
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Nov 18, 2017 16:10
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Pingiivi posted:I really don't get the bad ratings for Punisher. This is probably my favorite of the whole bunch. There's good drama, solid performances from pretty much everyone and some pretty brutal action. Also no tie-ins, mutants or super heroes. I suspect a big part of it may be that this is not the Punisher that seems to exist in the popular imagination. People die every episode, sure, and Frank is one scary motherfucker when he wants to be, but it's a tense, slow burn of a show that focuses on broken people, their pain, and their attempts to put their life back together. If you're not really paying attention, it's easy to dismiss this show as glorifying violence and guns or say well it's the Punisher show of course it's glorifying him and his approach to things. But it's not. The emotional meat of this show is delivered in silent looks, awkward, halting expressions of affection, and quietly mumbled admissions of pain and guilt. And I think for a lot of people, that's as far from the Punisher as you could ever imagine.
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Nov 18, 2017 16:16
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Pingiivi posted:I really don't get the bad ratings for Punisher. This is probably my favorite of the whole bunch. There's good drama, solid performances from pretty much everyone and some pretty brutal action. Also no tie-ins, mutants or super heroes.
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Nov 18, 2017 16:28
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