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HookedOnChthonics posted:Neurolimal, people would take your criticism of SMG more seriously if you didn't literally have more posts than him in the star wars Cinema Discusso thread while also being so blithely, demonstrably unconcerned with the actual contents of said movies Sorry for not remembering the gun
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Feb 29, 2016 04:29
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Being any two of * among most prolific posters in thread * reliably critical of people examining and analyzing the contents of the movies * 'eh, I don't really remember Star Wars' v  vI can understand, but all three at once? That's just tezzor without the panache u do u tho
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Feb 29, 2016 04:39
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What do Old Star Wars and New Star Wars mean? Is it just a list of their contents? Like, Darth Vader is Old Star Wars, and Kylo is New Star Wars, and that's as far as we should go?
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Feb 29, 2016 04:42
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People I've seen making the distinction generally characterize New Star Wars as being the highly emotive younger characters that appeal to the post-Harry Potter, post-Hunger Games youth of today.
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Feb 29, 2016 04:45
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That describes the original trilogy pretty well.
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Feb 29, 2016 04:51
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Neurolimal posted:It's set up to appear to be a return to Old Star Wars, when in reality not only is it New Star Wars, but characters and imagery from Old Star Wars repeatedly fails when opposing New Star Wars. It leads the viewers into believing that they're going to watch what they think they want (a nostalgic trip with a derivative story) and not only doesn't go in that direction, but actively persuades the audience into giving new Star Wars ideas a chance. I haven't seen much written about FN, and I've seen extremely little written about Hux, Poe, or BB8. (The conversation begins and ends with them being cute.) And I have haven't seen a single thing written about the Knights of Ren, as they basically don't even appear in the film. In any case, Martman already said it: what is "New Star Wars"?
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Feb 29, 2016 05:20
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Martman posted:What do Old Star Wars and New Star Wars mean? Is it just a list of their contents? Like, Darth Vader is Old Star Wars, and Kylo is New Star Wars, and that's as far as we should go? it just means accepting new content instead of clinging to what's comfortable and accepted as good. First Order is stuck in the past and loses because they are cargo culting an old failed regime. Han tries to appeal to Kylo without understanding his mental state because he saw his friend manage it decades ago. Finn breaks out of the murderous civil war re-enactment group and finds his place in the present. Basically, dont be a dick about your nostalgia, accept that new things come and often succeed the old things, approach it on its level instead of underneath the ground with your fossils. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 05:52 on Feb 29, 2016 |
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Feb 29, 2016 05:50
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ungulateman posted:Galaxy Quest is already a good movie independent of Star Trek, called The Three Amigos. You're thinking of Seven Samurai
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Feb 29, 2016 22:18
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Mild spoilers about the timeline of Episode VIII and where it will pick up: http://www.slashfilm.com/star-wars-episode-viii-opening/ I have to say I think it's kind of dumb to deviate from the formula in this way, but we'll see.
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Mar 1, 2016 00:16
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There's not really any other way to do it, based on how TFA ended.
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Mar 1, 2016 00:45
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It'd actually be pretty easy to just skip the intro and start off with them training in the next film. The real issue though, is that was a lovely ending for the last film.
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Mar 1, 2016 00:53
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computer parts posted:There's not really any other way to do it, based on how TFA ended. They can start the story wherever they want though. That's what writing is. Did ROTJ have to start with Luke and Leia on the medical frigate, and Han frozen on Slave I?
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Mar 1, 2016 01:03
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wyoming posted:It'd actually be pretty easy to just skip the intro and start off with them training in the next film. It is a good end+beginning for a TV show, though, which is how the new movies appear to be plotted.
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Mar 1, 2016 01:06
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Just pan down from the stars to the planet, the Falcon flies into frame towards the planet, and cut to that scene. Bam!
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Mar 1, 2016 01:16
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Honestly, it makes perfect sense for episode VIII to pick right back up where VII left off. We need to hear Luke's response to being called back by Rey, and by extension the rest of the Galaxy, before anything can be done with his character. How he responds is going to set the tone for the entire rest of the movie.
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Mar 1, 2016 01:25
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I think I fall into the category that they should have tied it up in VII. I don't think Star Wars benefited from a cliff-hanger like that.
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Mar 1, 2016 01:54
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kiimo posted:I think I fall into the category that they should have tied it up in VII. I don't think Star Wars benefited from a cliff-hanger like that. I kinda agree. They should have either ended it with Rey leaving to find Luke and picked up with her meeting him after a time spent searching, or have them meet and pick up after they've know each other a little while. But as it is, they can't really do the time skip after a cliffhanger like that, which will limit how much the overall plot will have progressed. Like, we won't get the transition Luke had from ANH to ESB where he's begun to learn rudimentary applications of the force and matured a bit. Which means it will still have been only a couple days since Rey left Jakku and won't help the feeling of rushing from set piece to set piece with no downtime I had about the first film.
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Mar 1, 2016 02:11
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The opening has to be in space though. If you want it to take place immediatley after VII start the movie with Ren and Hux flying to Snoke's planet with their tails between their legs after Starkiller was destroyed. Do that scene, then cut to Rey and Luke on the island.
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Mar 1, 2016 02:21
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Canemacar posted:I kinda agree. They should have either ended it with Rey leaving to find Luke and picked up with her meeting him after a time spent searching, or have them meet and pick up after they've know each other a little while. But as it is, they can't really do the time skip after a cliffhanger like that, which will limit how much the overall plot will have progressed. If they're already going to go against the formula in one way, they could do it in another way and have a time skip in the movie itself.
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Mar 1, 2016 03:19
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Beeez posted:If they're already going to go against the formula in one way, they could do it in another way and have a time skip in the movie itself. That's been done, in ESB.
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Mar 1, 2016 03:23
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computer parts posted:That's been done, in ESB. Yeah, I thought of that right after I posted but I was too lazy to edit it. But I meant in a sense where we wouldn't even see the time pass on screen in some fashion, that it'd jump immediately from their introduction to a later time frame. I think doing it the ESB way would make more sense as it'd give the audience a better idea of how these characters get to know each other, but who knows what will happen.
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Mar 1, 2016 04:58
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Jewmanji posted:Mild spoilers about the timeline of Episode VIII and where it will pick up: Or they could make the best choice for the story rather than sticking to a formula.
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Mar 1, 2016 06:36
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feedmyleg posted:Or they could make the best choice for the story rather than sticking to a formula. Nothing about TFA was a choice made for the story.
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Mar 1, 2016 08:42
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Canemacar posted:I kinda agree. They should have either ended it with Rey leaving to find Luke and picked up with her meeting him after a time spent searching, or have them meet and pick up after they've know each other a little while. But as it is, they can't really do the time skip after a cliffhanger like that, which will limit how much the overall plot will have progressed. Calling it: Luke puts his hand on Rey's head and unlocks her hidden potential.
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Mar 1, 2016 12:26
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Plus people would have flipped the gently caress out if VIII picked up months/years later and them first interacting was relegated to spin off comics and novels after how VII ends. That would have been a Jar Jar is back caliber miscalculation.Freakazoid_ posted:Calling it: Luke puts his hand on Rey's head and unlocks her hidden potential. Can't wait to see This Ain't Star Wars Episode VIII: An Adult Parody.
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Mar 1, 2016 13:56
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porfiria posted:Nothing about TFA was a choice made for the story. I don't think I'd go that far. Hmm. A list of the things that I don't think are functions of casting or marketing! -- Rey's little Rebel pilot obsession. There was no story or marketing reason for her to be interested in Solo/Falcon -- she needed to escape Jakku because she was getting shot at -- and no story reason for her to Refuse the Call there when it's duplicated with Luke's lightsaber. -- Finn's American accent. I think that was there to "switch up" the Empire = British thing. -- Mayyyybe keeping Poe Dameron alive. Could also have been solely the result of test audiences, though. -- Kylo Ren as the Solo child. Every other villain is a cardboard cutout, they could have done that with him too and people would have been just as happy.
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Mar 1, 2016 15:20
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homullus posted:-- Rey's little Rebel pilot obsession. There was no story or marketing reason for her to be interested in Solo/Falcon -- she needed to escape Jakku because she was getting shot at -- and no story reason for her to Refuse the Call there when it's duplicated with Luke's lightsaber. I think this one could go either way. I think there's some truth to a metatextual reading in which Rey represents real life Star Wars fans meeting their childhood heroes and going through the old tropes. But it could also have been a marketing thing to assure those same fans that Rey isn't a "fake nerd girl" or whatever the gently caress. homullus posted:-- Finn's American accent. I think that was there to "switch up" the Empire = British thing. It pairs nicely with Rey, the Luke analogue, having a British accent. homullus posted:-- Mayyyybe keeping Poe Dameron alive. Could also have been solely the result of test audiences, though. IIRC, this one is most likely due to Wedge's actor refusing to return. If he had, I'm sure it would have been him blowing up Starkiller base instead. homullus posted:-- Kylo Ren as the Solo child. Every other villain is a cardboard cutout, they could have done that with him too and people would have been just as happy. Kylo's character was built from the ground up as a response to Darth Vader. Making him the Solo child, a direct descendant, and establishing a familial connection to the main villain in the Star wars tradition was pretty much the only way they could have gone with it.
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Mar 1, 2016 15:45
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homullus posted:I don't think I'd go that far. Hmm. A list of the things that I don't think are functions of casting or marketing! TFA is the result of a compromise between a group of people who care about telling a story from the heart and a group of people who care almost exclusively about box office success. It isn't entirely one or the other. Most things aren't. Sometimes it works out. In this case, though, I think it hurt the movie more than it helped. J.J. is a talented filmmaker, but he isn't an auteur. The box office considerations were always going to dominate.
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Mar 1, 2016 16:01
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Canemacar posted:Kylo's character was built from the ground up as a response to Darth Vader. Making him the Solo child, a direct descendant, and establishing a familial connection to the main villain in the Star wars tradition was pretty much the only way they could have gone with it. I really don't accept that this is the case. They could have just as easily made the hero/heroine a bloodline character and given us yet another cardboard villain. They really could have made NO bloodline characters and been ok also.
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Mar 1, 2016 16:12
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homullus posted:I really don't accept that this is the case. They could have just as easily made the hero/heroine a bloodline character and given us yet another cardboard villain. They really could have made NO bloodline characters and been ok also. Rumor is that the "Solo child turning to the dark side" plot line actually originated in the Lucas treatment.
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Mar 1, 2016 16:22
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Cnut the Great posted:Rumor is that the "Solo child turning to the dark side" plot line actually originated in the Lucas treatment. Are there any other rumors about what was in the treatment from before Disney actually bought the company?
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Mar 1, 2016 16:44
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Beeez posted:Are there any other rumors about what was in the treatment from before Disney actually bought the company? That it was about "bad mothers" rather than "bad fathers."
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Mar 1, 2016 16:48
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homullus posted:That it was about "bad mothers" rather than "bad fathers." I wonder if Maz was originally part of that in that she's basically a female Yoda?
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Mar 1, 2016 16:49
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BrianWilly posted:Well, sure, she plainly fails. It falls flat because Finn and Han don't actually do anything for Rey. They come back for her and, once again, Rey has already escaped all on her own. Of course "Rey finds a new family in Finn and Han" is the angle they were going for. I'm not an idiot. But it just doesn't work, because the writing is poor. In all other ways, the writing communicates to us that Rey, as a character, does not actually need Finn and Han. More than anything else, they need her. Sure, we're expected to understand that she needs them emotionally. But strong writing would reinforce that idea by means of the way the characters interact with and influence each other. Again, look at A New Hope: Luke needs Obi-Wan emotionally; he also needs Obi-Wan to teach him how to use the Force. Luke needs Han emotionally; Luke also needs Han to teach him how to be more worldly and less naive. Luke needs Leia emotionally; he also needs Leia to teach him heroism and political conscientiousness. The characters who end up becoming a surrogate family for Luke each represent a particular attribute/value of adulthood which Luke must assimilate within himself in order to become a more mature, self-actualized person. The characters who end up becoming a surrogate family for Rey represent nothing to Rey except "people who are nice to her." Do you see the difference? quote:When Rey was first offered the lightsaber, she had essentially finished her mission. Everyone was safe, BB-8 was going to go home, Finn had chosen his path. There was absolutely no reason for Rey to take an old lightsaber -- one that literally caused her to relive the biggest trauma of her life -- and go off to find Luke or whatever Maz wanted her to do instead of simply going back to Jakku like she was compelled to. But then an extraordinary thing happens in Rey's life; someone she cared about actually came back for her, just like she's always wanted, and abolishes any remaining emotional hangups Rey had about embracing her greater destiny. No. Rey was stranded all alone in a snowy forest with no transportation with Kylo Ren bearing down on her with a lightsaber. There was no possible way for her, in that moment, to have simply decided to turn tail and go back to Jakku. Her choice was to either use the lightsaber or die. It's weak writing because Rey, once again, is not given any sort of a real choice. She has no agency as a character. Her choices don't drive the story forward. Things just happen to her, and she's forced to go along with it. quote:Also, Han Solo just got killed and she is angry about it. Anger gives power. All incredibly logical. The prequels spent two movies before Episode III setting up Anakin's fear of loss and his propensity toward having prophetic visions of his loved ones dying. I know this is Star Wars. The plot talks to people sometimes. But you have to do it with a little more finesse and purpose than TFA did. Anakin had visions and heard voices because his fear was so great that it became a palpable thing. His fear is what's really speaking to him. It's more than just an arbitrary expositional shortcut. Now, in contrast, why is Rey hearing voices and having visions? Because an object which she's never even seen before--and which holds no meaning for her personally--suddenly, out of the blue, decided to start talking to her. Not because it's a natural consequence of what the film has thus far established about who Rey is as a character and how she fits into this universe--but simply because the script said so. It's clumsy writing. The script was obviously rushed. There are obvious writing shortcuts everywhere. It's probably not entirely Abrams and Kasdan's fault. More than anything, it's Disney's, for throwing out Lucas's treatments, starting over from scratch with Arndt, and then throwing out Arndt's work and starting all over again a second time with J.J. The story didn't evolve naturally. They clearly already knew more or less what they wanted the final product to look like. They worked backwards from that final product to come up with a story that could act as a delivery mechanism for various desired bits of OT iconography, and they did a shoddy job of it.
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Mar 1, 2016 17:06
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Cnut the Great posted:his fear was so great that it became a palpable thing
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Mar 1, 2016 17:11
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homullus posted:That it was about "bad mothers" rather than "bad fathers." No, that was what the rumors were about what the prequel trilogy would be about. Which obviously turned out to be true. Beeez posted:Are there any other rumors about what was in the treatment from before Disney actually bought the company? There would have been another Solo child, a girl, who would have been the main hero. Luke would have been the Obi-Wan figure instead of Han. The plot supposedly would have revolved around the Solo children travelling to various planets on a quest to discover something vital about the ancient Sith. The villains would have been some sort of religious cult that worshiped Darth Vader. By the end of the film, the girl Solo would have embarked on the Jedi path, and the boy Solo would have succumbed to the dark side. None of this is concrete, though. It's just stuff I've heard in various places. Some elements seem to have been reflected in Ardnt's original draft. All this would also track with Kathleen Kennedy's statements about how the final story for TFA was derived from Lucas's treatments in some respects.
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Mar 1, 2016 17:16
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Her fear of what? Of not being on Jakku? Why is her fear of not being on Jakku manifesting itself as a talking lightsaber that wants her to be a Jedi?
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Mar 1, 2016 17:21
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porfiria posted:Nothing about TFA was a choice made for the story. I didn't say anything about TFA. I was talking about VIII.
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Mar 1, 2016 18:42
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Freakazoid_ posted:Calling it: Luke puts his hand on Rey's head and unlocks her hidden potential. NAIIIIIIIILLLLLS!
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Mar 1, 2016 18:47
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She wasn't stuck in a prison cell but she was still merely surviving, alone, abandoned.
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Mar 1, 2016 19:05
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