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Compendium posted:tag your stuff please tyvm sorry, fixed
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Jan 1, 2018 23:32
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BlondRobin posted:as someone who cares about the story of this internet mobile game Grand Order i would like to reject the allegation that anyone who cares about the story of this game goes through every stated rule anywhere in any related property to see if anything might have been possibly broken based on wild conjecture so that angry internet posting can happen Nobody's doing that and that's not the point I'm making. The point is that nasu's works have a (really bad, really glaring) habit of laying down rules in exacting detail, building them up to matter and then throwing them to the wayside at climactic moments, and it makes the story poorer for it because it runs up against the law of never using an unforeshadowed detail to resolve the plot. Sanguinia made a claim that his works have consistency in how their rules work, I pointed out that they don't with a very obvious example. That's all. There's lots of technobabble and pretty much none of it matters. The stories are almost always better off not trying to do the whole 'pedantic, exactingly precise rules' thing because they never follow through.
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Jan 1, 2018 23:35
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I just one-turned Gilgamesh in the Archer Daily for over 200k damage with my level 70 NP2 Lancer Alter's Buster Brave Chain. She's so freaking strong. Buster crits with Mana Burst A+ and Protection from End of the World is dealing like 80k damage each. And Jeanne Alter is going to be this on steroids??
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Jan 1, 2018 23:46
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I think it's cool when the rules get broken because it's like 'wow this rule was important and then they broke it!!' and then ilyasviel's like 'nani, how could you defeat berserker-kun' and then Saber and Shirou are friends and then the sword goes vwoooooooooommmm. that's my indepth review of nasu's writing.
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Jan 1, 2018 23:46
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Dee Ehm posted:I just one-turned Gilgamesh in the Archer Daily for over 200k damage with my level 70 NP2 Lancer Alter's Buster Brave Chain. She's so freaking strong. Buster crits with Mana Burst A+ and Protection from End of the World is dealing like 80k damage each. Jalter is very, very silly She won't get that juicy Super Effective bonus against pretty much anyone, but on the other hand, she kinda doesn't need it when she might as well have berserkers style damage multiplication compared to someone like lalter due to her enormous attack stat. Avengers are very, very good.
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Jan 1, 2018 23:49
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The reasons why Jalter is good besides massive damage is her NP isn't hard to maintain (Passive 4% NP gain every turn), and she has a dodge.
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Jan 2, 2018 00:00
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Transient People posted:We're told God Hand operates on a lives system. Name a single instance of lives overflowing in the history of anything besides God Hand. That is inconsistency and bad storytelling. If you say 'he has twelve lives and becomes immune to what killed him after losing each one', the expectation is that each life is separate (as in like, oh, all of fiction and also videogames and pretty much anything else?) so you need to find twelve different ways to kill him. To say "ACKSHUALLY, I didn't mean lives that way! Haha look how dumb you are for not realizing my twist was to invent a new meaning to this and never so much as hint at it!" is very very bad writing. It's precisely because of the Caliburn moment that I don't think Nasu actually cares about consistency, because that's the one that we actually see onscreen for a demonstration of how Herc is beaten the first time, and the one that actually matters because it's the protagonists trying to do it...and the answer is 'lol who cares about rules, the one who's going to win is the one the writer wants to win, rules be damned'. It's foreshadowed in that very scene. After Rin kills Herc once, Ilya tells her that she could have killed Herc for good if she'd used five times the number of jewels. Excalibur (if you go down the bad end) kills Herc twice, leaving him with five. Ilya says a full-power Excaliblast would have depleted him even with all 12 lives. The regeneration of God Hand is instant. So if whatever killed him is -still- killing him when he regenerates, he dies again without gaining immunity. Caliburn takes seven lives because it's blasting him from the inside out.
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Jan 2, 2018 00:14
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ooh Snap!
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Jan 2, 2018 00:15
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Vengarr posted:It's foreshadowed in that very scene. After Rin kills Herc once, Ilya tells her that she could have killed Herc for good if she'd used five times the number of jewels. Excalibur (if you go down the bad end) kills Herc twice, leaving him with five. Ilya says a full-power Excaliblast would have depleted him even with all 12 lives. And you don't see the problem with foreshadowing something in the exact same scene it occurs? Like - the problem isn't that God Hand works that way. It's that we get no clue it does until crunch time, which is particularly damning since Archer had killed him repeatedly and it could've been at least hinted there. Contrast with something like the denouement of the UBW route. We know Shirou has no chance vs Gilgamesh in a straight up fight, but he beats him using an ability we know he can use, taking advantage of something that was previously well-established (the contract with Rin to gain more mana), and putting together all the facts about how Gil is a king and not a warrior to form a very satisfying conclusion where the ability to create infinite swords beats a vast but finite treasury and the bad guy's arrogance is his undoing. This kind of thing is pretty rarely about the explanation itself being completely indefensible - it's the execution of it and the absence of foreshadowing in advance that makes it bad.
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Jan 2, 2018 00:25
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The Baasaka on that vid where he soloes FGO's SPOILER boss definitely has 12 lives for sure
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Jan 2, 2018 00:31
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did you know that they also didn't know what his power what before they fought him? crazy
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Jan 2, 2018 00:44
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Dryzen posted:did you know that they also didn't know what his power what before they fought him? crazy Yeah, this. You're lead to believe that God Hand is just nullifying attacks until the scene just prior to that.
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Jan 2, 2018 00:55
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Dryzen posted:did you know that they also didn't know what his power what before they fought him? crazy Yeah, I know. It's just not really satisfying to build up a really scary boss and then say 'welp, he's actually less frightening than you thought. Grats!'. That's a relief for the protagonists, but it kind of feels like a cheat when you want to see just how they get out of such a bad mess.
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Jan 2, 2018 01:02
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Basically every time a rule gets laid down in the franchise, it gets broken later. The fact that the writer bothered to come up with a justification for it doesn't make it feel like any less of an asspull after the tenth or so time someone hacks or circumvents a supposedly absolute rule. At this point, if a character says "this is an ironclad rule that will never change", it's safe to assume it'll be completely shattered at the first dramatic opportunity, because half the time these rules are laid down for the sole purpose of making it more dramatic when someone inevitably breaks them later. It's stupid to rules-lawyer about it when the answer to every continuity question is "oh, they found an exception or managed to cheat the rule or it just didn't actually work that way in the first place, whatever". After a while, they've made up so many excuses that it hardly matters whether or not they've even bothered to try and justify it anymore.
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Jan 2, 2018 01:06
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Transient People posted:Yeah, I know. It's just not really satisfying to build up a really scary boss and then say 'welp, he's actually less frightening than you thought. Grats!'. That's a relief for the protagonists, but it kind of feels like a cheat when you want to see just how they get out of such a bad mess. *staring at your posting*  That's right... a [probation] won't work... and that doesn't mean i should make the same [posts] as my enemy, either... I need to reach it... that brilliant [post]... a [post] that'll blow him away in one strike...
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Jan 2, 2018 01:08
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Jan 2, 2018 01:13
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Can you date Hercules to bypass God Hand
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Jan 2, 2018 01:15
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are we going to nasuverse rules lawyer in the thread for a game where your character is somehow supplying enough magic to sustain 30+ servants at once
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Jan 2, 2018 01:17
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Blockhouse posted:are we going to nasuverse rules lawyer in the thread for a game where your character is somehow supplying enough magic to sustain 30+ servants at once Well in that specific case, the energy is coming from Chaldea. We're in-canon weak as poo poo mages.
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Jan 2, 2018 01:25
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I don't think either of you guys are strictly wrong here? Fate has a really interesting system of magic and abilities and the whole conceptual weapons and such and it's mostly internally consistent... But when Rider had an A+ Noble Phantasm, Saber turned out to have an A++ Noble Phantasm. And Saber's Instinct was strong enough to avoid most of the damage of the causality reversing Gae Bulg but couldn't stop her from getting beaten to a pulp by a random martial artist with a strengthening spell on his fists. The rules work however it fits the plot, and that's fine. As far as plot armor and consistency goes it's still got a much better track record than a lot of series, especially any as complicated and expansive as Fate.
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Jan 2, 2018 02:09
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Rules are potatoes, just like the game servers
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Jan 2, 2018 02:18
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With them pushing the Foreigner class I wonder if they're going to make Berserkers more prevalent and annoying in Part 2 content.
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Jan 2, 2018 02:21
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Dee Ehm posted:I don't think either of you guys are strictly wrong here? Fate has a really interesting system of magic and abilities and the whole conceptual weapons and such and it's mostly internally consistent... Gae Bolg was only not fatal solely because it only checks against the Luck stat. If Saber pass the saving throw/roll, Gae Bolg doesn't pierce the heart and just pierce the chest. Instinct does nothing in that case except possibly warning you to get out of the cast range in time. Kuzuki's snake fist is a technique of deceit that can can confuse even expert fighters, especially against those emphasized by their talents (Instinct doesn't help much if the threat constantly completely change forms even midstrike). However one can figure out the trick if they experienced it once. Kuzuki was also an assassin trained from birth to learn nothing but the single technique. And his concept and origin was very much related to a certain character in one of Nasu's earliest work that would later on become Mahoyo. Randomzx fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Jan 2, 2018 |
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Jan 2, 2018 02:27
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Ibram Gaunt posted:With them pushing the Foreigner class I wonder if they're going to make Berserkers more prevalent and annoying in Part 2 content. Well the explanation for the rapid release of two foreigners in succession is that Raum's meddling left the door just a tiny bit open for beings from the other side to try and push through for a short time so it probably has more to do with story than game play. I'm pretty sure Nasu is still more concerned with the yarn he spins and then tells DW to figure out how to make it fit in the game play. They'll probably give us a freebie if they decide to go with it, like it happened with Mecha Liz. More detailed explanation about Hokusai: Cthulhu tried to destroy the last vestige holding back Hokusai Senior from becoming its vessel but one of Guda's patented dream meddlings foiled it and instead the Hokusai father daughter pair became a servant-like being for Guda to contract with. The dad is the little octopus. This is based on how historically both father and daughter interacted with the public under the father's name. Kyte fucked around with this message at 03:07 on Jan 2, 2018 |
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Jan 2, 2018 02:31
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EoR was all about how established rules are slowly being unwoven. Female Musashi from another dimension. Male King Aurthur showing up. CCC shenanigans. Fictious stories becoming true or warping reality and servants. And the seams of reality coming undone enough to let in Lovecraftian horrors. EoR and the part 2 prelude was just a year long excuse to blow established conventions out of the water and make up all sorts of new stuff. Even moreso than has already happened.
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Jan 2, 2018 02:39
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Dee Ehm posted:And Saber's Instinct was strong enough to avoid most of the damage of the causality reversing Gae Bulg but couldn't stop her from getting beaten to a pulp by a random martial artist with a strengthening spell on his fists. Instinct actually hurt Saber against Kuzuki, because his style was designed to kill instinctual fighters. Dodging one strike sets you up neatly for the next.
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Jan 2, 2018 04:04
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Fate. Sometimes rules arguments, Sometimes cooking manga.
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Jan 2, 2018 04:26
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Vengarr posted:Instinct actually hurt Saber against Kuzuki, because his style was designed to kill instinctual fighters. Dodging one strike sets you up neatly for the next. I understand that and that was part of my point but now I can't remember if my point was that the rules are consistent or that they're in service of the plot, because it's honestly hard to tell. I like Fate. I'm excited for this cooking show.
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Jan 2, 2018 04:37
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I am happy that FGO treats Instinct with all the respect that skill deserves.
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Jan 2, 2018 04:49
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Main Paineframe posted:Basically every time a rule gets laid down in the franchise, it gets broken later. The fact that the writer bothered to come up with a justification for it doesn't make it feel like any less of an asspull after the tenth or so time someone hacks or circumvents a supposedly absolute rule. At this point, if a character says "this is an ironclad rule that will never change", it's safe to assume it'll be completely shattered at the first dramatic opportunity, because half the time these rules are laid down for the sole purpose of making it more dramatic when someone inevitably breaks them later. It's stupid to rules-lawyer about it when the answer to every continuity question is "oh, they found an exception or managed to cheat the rule or it just didn't actually work that way in the first place, whatever". After a while, they've made up so many excuses that it hardly matters whether or not they've even bothered to try and justify it anymore. This, pretty much. Endorph posted:*staring at your posting* Nobody cares that you don't like in-depth discussion of the franchise. Just as I could post a detailed breakdown of how to make a stall team work, I can talk about what works and doesn't work at the narrative level and why it can break somebody's suspension of disbelief. If you really hate discussion that much put me on ignore, because what I'm discussing is neither offtopic nor a shitpost. Dee Ehm posted:I don't think either of you guys are strictly wrong here? Fate has a really interesting system of magic and abilities and the whole conceptual weapons and such and it's mostly internally consistent... Related to this discussion, something that very pleasantly surprised me is that the trick they came up with in Okeanos to deal with Heracles was legit clever and made perfect sense. 'Anybody who touches this is super dead, let's make him touch it!' is the kind of thing Fate should have more of. And I agree that in terms of consistency Fate isn't too shabby. It's not like Gilgamesh performs wildly differently in each of his appearances for example (even in CCC he's not like, being super powerful compared to F/SN, he's just actually trying). A character will generally do about as well as you can expect them to do once they're properly established. It's much better than what happens in say, comics, where one day Spiderman struggles with the Rhino and the other he beats a herald of Galactus. EDIT: About the cooking show, I heard the recipes it talks about are real and really good? Can anybody confirm? I'm always looking for new things to try out.
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Jan 2, 2018 06:31
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Wait, there's actually a cooking show? Is it out yet? Are there links to it?
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Jan 2, 2018 06:39
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No subs yet https://youtu.be/ZP1dn7PPlBo
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Jan 2, 2018 06:42
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Transient People posted:Related to this discussion, something that very pleasantly surprised me is that the trick they came up with in Okeanos to deal with Heracles was legit clever and made perfect sense. 'Anybody who touches this is super dead, let's make him touch it!' is the kind of thing Fate should have more of. And I agree that in terms of consistency Fate isn't too shabby. It's not like Gilgamesh performs wildly differently in each of his appearances for example (even in CCC he's not like, being super powerful compared to F/SN, he's just actually trying). A character will generally do about as well as you can expect them to do once they're properly established. It's much better than what happens in say, comics, where one day Spiderman struggles with the Rhino and the other he beats a herald of Galactus. Agreed. That was one of the many things I loved about Okeanos. Okeanos had really clever writing pretty much top-to-bottom honestly. If I didn't love Orleans so much it'd be my favorite campaign thus far easily
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Jan 2, 2018 07:10
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Tarezax posted:No subs yet there definetly are subs for it
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Jan 2, 2018 07:24
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Sanguinia posted:Agreed. That was one of the many things I loved about Okeanos. Okeanos had really clever writing pretty much top-to-bottom honestly. If I didn't love Orleans so much it'd be my favorite campaign thus far easily I felt like Orleans was a bit formulaic, but I can see why someone would love it - the rapport between Mozart and Marie was excellent, for example. It's kinda weird how huge of a low Septem is when it's sandwiched between pretty solid stories.
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Jan 2, 2018 07:42
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Transient People posted:I felt like Orleans was a bit formulaic, but I can see why someone would love it - the rapport between Mozart and Marie was excellent, for example. It's kinda weird how huge of a low Septem is when it's sandwiched between pretty solid stories. Orleans' story is formulaic 100%, and the actual PLOT is pretty dumb to boot with all the random dragons and the finding saints to baptize a curse so they can slay Fafnir. But its characters and themes are very strongly realized within that formula, and its got a great way of knitting all the disparate little details together to help make them shine. Hell, Saber Gilles is basically a glorified cameo and even HE feels like an important puzzle piece in the overall arc Jeanne goes through. Freaking Liz, pointless comic relief character with no other real function in the story, she has the thing about not wanting to become Carmilla, which is at least indirectly relevant to Jeanne's plight! Plus is really has the "feeling," of a Fate story that some of the other Campaigns have lacked. The personal demons and philosophical quandary at the heart of things, how the relationships and the history of the heroes play into it, all that good stuff that makes Fate distinct. I almost got choked up when Marie stayed behind to fight Sason in her DESTINED BATTLE OF DESTINY, and then right off her victory was confronted by Big Bad Alter, only to without hesitation charge into a hopeless battle to buy her friends more time. It was Archer vs Herc or Iskander vs Gil or even Fran vs Mordred all over again, and I loved it. As for Septem... I could write a drat book about Septem's systematic squandering of every bit of potential it tried to cultivate. It was painful to watch it take scenes, characters and ideas that could have been good and literally strangle them over and over.
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Jan 2, 2018 08:05
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Orleans was pretty dull and Marie was the only good thing about it. And some stuff from Mozart.
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Jan 2, 2018 08:16
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Oh I found the subs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARhzN1SbmdI
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Jan 2, 2018 08:23
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Transient People posted:
For Fate/Cooking, yes, the recipes are real, but they're not super in depth nor are they super special. It's classic Japanese fare animated nicely and we all hang out at Emiya's kitchen.
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Jan 2, 2018 08:25
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Compendium posted:For Fate/Cooking, yes, the recipes are real, but they're not super in depth nor are they super special. It's classic Japanese fare animated nicely and we all hang out at Emiya's kitchen. I'm not seeing a downside to this.
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Jan 2, 2018 08:43
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