|
it is posted:Am I right that when you see C/C++ written on a resume like that, with the slash, that's a negative for you?
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2015 01:34
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 20:13 |
|
|
triple sulk posted:Woosh Oh gently caress, it's him again. I thought he was perma-banned.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2015 01:40
|
|
|
Simple but kind of philosophical question. For longer-term career development how heavily would you weigh working with other developers vs. working independently? I'm in the running for a couple jobs (and I may not get either! But I'm giving it some thought now) and one would involve working with a team of developers and the other would involve being the first dev they hired (apparently previously they'd contracted out work). They both pay more than where I am right now, but the lone-wolf job is significantly higher-paying than the other one. On a personal level I've been a lone-wolf developer before at my current place (I'm now on a two-man team) and didn't mind it. I also improved significantly as a developer over that time so I don't really feel like my development skills were stunted by it, but I suppose there's more to think about in a career than just dev skills.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2015 02:10
|
|
|
I personally feel like if I'm the smartest/most experienced person on the team, then I'm working in the wrong place. If I'm not in a situation where I can learn from my colleagues then I've overstayed my shelf life at the job. So to extend that, I wouldn't want to be in a situation where I'm both the smartest and the dumbest person on the team by default.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2015 02:45
|
|
|
kitten smoothie posted:I personally feel like if I'm the smartest/most experienced person on the team, then I'm working in the wrong place. If I'm not in a situation where I can learn from my colleagues then I've overstayed my shelf life at the job. RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS posted:Simple but kind of philosophical question. For longer-term career development how heavily would you weigh working with other developers vs. working independently?
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2015 02:55
|
|
|
JawnV6 posted:It is nice to get some breadth. Even if you're the only software resource and are spending the time to improve in that area, hopefully there's someone you're learning project management, marketing, etc. from. So it's possible to be the smartest & dumbest and still be growing out into other areas. Wow, thanks! This post is really insightful. You're right about picking up non-dev knowledge and it's something I just didn't think about a lot. That's a good point. I might as well say that in a lot of ways I really like being the one guy -- after all, I have a whole lot of control over what tools I'll use, what processes I'll use, how I solve problems, and so on, which I really enjoy. I've wondered how much I'd really like working at a more junior position at a bigger company because of that. But I constantly see people arguing -- often quite strongly -- that you're ruining your career or slowly atrophying your development skills or whatever working by yourself which has introduced some doubt for me. But, as you've said, if you turn it around there are some other career paths that are easier to travel from there.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2015 04:09
|
|
|
RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS posted:Wow, thanks! This post is really insightful. You're right about picking up non-dev knowledge and it's something I just didn't think about a lot. That's a good point. I wouldn't say ruining your career inherently, but it does become very easy to sit back and be a big fish in little pond. If you're not good a motivating yourself to constantly improve, you should probably try working as part of a team. But if you are good at motivating yourself, and you interact with other developers in other ways, then being on your own can allow you to specialize in the way you want to, instead of being shoehorned into a role you don't care for.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2015 04:25
|
|
|
Skandranon posted:I wouldn't say ruining your career inherently, but it does become very easy to sit back and be a big fish in little pond. If you're not good a motivating yourself to constantly improve, you should probably try working as part of a team. But if you are good at motivating yourself, and you interact with other developers in other ways, then being on your own can allow you to specialize in the way you want to, instead of being shoehorned into a role you don't care for. This also seems like a good point. I've done pretty well with this so far, but when I started doing this job I didn't know how to program at all and I spent a pretty extreme amount of my free time on learning stuff both practical and theoretical. That obviously isn't sustainable over the long term but I don't feel like I've really plateaued here yet and it's quite obvious to me that I've improved a lot even from when I first transitioned to a full-time developer role.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2015 04:43
|
|
|
it is posted:Help me settle an argument. Am I right that when you see C/C++ written on a resume like that, with the slash, that's a negative for you? Its a red flag but not a particularly huge one in the context of a resume since a lot of people will group language types like that. For instance I'll sometimes see JavaScript/ECMAScript/CoffeScript. When its a bigger red flag is if I'm reading an article and the writer is using C/C++ as a singular entity while making claims about complex topics involving traits that the languages differ in such as memory management or control flow or programming paradigms.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2015 05:08
|
|
|
So I was on the phone with our software vendor working through some issues/bugs/feature requests and I've worked with the co-CEO/head of engineering for about a month during our proof of concept, and today one of their software engineering managers offered for me to come work for them. It sounds like it would be a pretty good job, they're in the flatiron building in downtown SF, have been around a few years and keep getting multi-milion dollar seed funding rounds from venture capitalists, decent growth, and it would throw me in the heart of the silicon valley startup culture which I would probably thrive in given my previous history at other employers. Also I really "get" how their software works and how to apply it in large environments, which is where they want to head. So I started plugging in values in to google and cost of living calculators, I found two things 1) my current salary of about 60K in Dallas would require 98K in SF to continue the same quality of life I'm enjoying here 2) the average software dev "only" makes 103K in SF Assuming they offered me 100K, a) would they? b) is $60k in Dallas really equivalent to 100K in the bay area? Or are there other factors to take in to consideration? Also I live a 3 mile leisurely bike ride from downtown/my office here in Dallas. I'm guessing I'd have to pick up a 1 hour commute each way to get rent below $2k/mo in the Bay Area? I currently live in a ~1400 sq ft 2 bed/1 bath with a real garage and big enough yard I have a garden and a hammock and can toss a frisbee around in the back yard. c) If I really am the rock star in training I think I am (we all think that, right?) how fast can I see my income rise above the 100-110 range? Or is 120K pretty much the ceiling for developers in SF? I haven't looked in to this at all. Hadlock fucked around with this message at 05:25 on Aug 20, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2015 05:23
|
|
|
Hadlock posted:So I was on the phone with our software vendor working through some issues/bugs/feature requests and I've worked with the co-CEO/head of engineering for about a month during our proof of concept, and today one of their software engineering managers offered for me to come work for them. It sounds like it would be a pretty good job, they're in the flatiron building in downtown SF, have been around a few years and keep getting multi-milion dollar seed funding rounds from venture capitalists, decent growth, and it would throw me in the heart of the silicon valley startup culture which I would probably thrive in given my previous history at other employers. Also I really "get" how their software works and how to apply it in large environments, which is where they want to head. If the average software dev makes 103k in SF, the average software dev is either really bad, or has no idea how to negotiate job offers. 120k is like literally new college grad salary range. The ceiling is probably somewhere in the 500ish thousand range.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2015 05:40
|
|
|
So starting off with "120K is what I would need to move out there because it would be a direct trade in real cost of living adjustment" would be an acceptable tactic?
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2015 06:19
|
|
|
Hadlock posted:So starting off with "120K is what I would need to move out there because it would be a direct trade in real cost of living adjustment" would be an acceptable tactic? Have they already given you a specific number? If no, then absolutely do not say anything about your salary expectations. Wait for them to make an offer.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2015 06:23
|
|
|
Hadlock posted:1) my current salary of about 60K in Dallas would require 98K in SF to continue the same quality of life I'm enjoying here These both seem really wrong. You should make more and you probably need to make more to have anything close to your current standard of living.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2015 07:03
|
|
|
b0lt posted:If the average software dev makes 103k in SF, the average software dev is either really bad, or has no idea how to negotiate job offers. 120k is the new college grad range including the signup bonus and stock options over a reasonable time period at high profile companies that are known for paying well. I'm highly skeptical that the average college grad in the Bay Area makes that. Salary sites are known to be high though the number is probably lacking bonus/stock. Regardless, he shouldn't say anything till they make an offer.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2015 10:10
|
|
|
asur posted:120k is the new college grad range including the signup bonus and stock options over a reasonable time period at high profile companies that are known for paying well. That are also known for having high standards. The standards are generally higher in the bay area than other parts even outside those companies -- I wouldn't know, but that's what people, that I would believe, say about the subject.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2015 15:14
|
|
|
Hadlock posted:
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2015 15:40
|
|
|
Hadlock posted:So starting off with "120K is what I would need to move out there because it would be a direct trade in real cost of living adjustment" would be an acceptable tactic? The correct response at this stage is "I'm interested. Make me an offer and I'll consider it" assuming you're actually interested. I'm not sure if you found this COL comparison in your search but it's probably more accurate and certainly more detailed than the CNN COL calculator. Also, don't forget you can ask for relocation money. The tech bubble thread leads me to believe you'll be looking at at least 4-5k/mo to live within an hour of downtown SF and it won't be nearly much room as you're used to at that range but they could be exaggerating since that's sort of the nature of YOSPOS.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2015 16:06
|
|
|
RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS posted:I have a whole lot of control over what tools I'll use, what processes I'll use, how I solve problems, and so on, which I really enjoy. I've wondered how much I'd really like working at a more junior position at a bigger company because of that. How do you know your process is any good? Just spitballing, but it might be worth seeing how a larger organization implements a process just so you're conscious of what you're avoiding when you start to implement your own. You might have a terrible process that's only saved by your unequaled brilliance. Outside of that, as a lone wolf you still have options to get professional feedback. Hopefully you have an industry mentor that you can discuss issues with, like if you had two contenders for an architecture or had a failure mode that kept escaping your process. After 6~18 months hire the contractor you replaced, or someone else with a lot more domain experience, to come audit your code.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2015 17:08
|
|
|
I'm just starting in this industry, but boot camps sound cheaty and not good. Would you trust an accountant or car mechanic who learned from a 3 month bootcamp? How about a surgeon? I just feel like actual time at a real school has no substitute. Learning this poo poo takes skill and work, sure, but it also takes a lot of time for your brain to truly make all the connections it needs.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2015 17:40
|
|
|
Colonel J posted:I'm just starting in this industry, but boot camps sound cheaty and not good. Would you trust an accountant or car mechanic who learned from a 3 month bootcamp?
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2015 17:44
|
|
|
Colonel J posted:I'm just starting in this industry, but boot camps sound cheaty and not good. Would you trust an accountant or car mechanic who learned from a 3 month bootcamp? How about a surgeon? I just feel like actual time at a real school has no substitute. Learning this poo poo takes skill and work, sure, but it also takes a lot of time for your brain to truly make all the connections it needs. I think part of the problem is that people are equating in their heads a 7 week boot camp with a 4 year computer science degree, when they are not at all intended to provide the same path to employment. The boot camp teaches you how to write a program in a specific language, and might go over fundamentals, but when you come out of it, you are a 'programmer' When a person graduates from a 4 year degree program, they are, ostensibly a 'computer scientist' They can also write a program, yes, but the concerns there are not whether a program runs without crashing, but whether the algorithm is correct for the application, can it be more efficient space or time wise, is there a better way to accomplish the goals we have? Boot camp might get you a job, and if you are a good self starter, that might be enough. The degree is (usually) intended to put you in the role of the architect, or foreman, instead of one of the (wo)men who swing the hammers, or turn the wrench.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2015 17:48
|
|
|
Double post
pr0zac fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Aug 20, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2015 17:53
|
|
|
sarehu posted:That are also known for having high standards. Counterpoint: I still have a job. Ed: More seriously, everyone in the Bay Area claims to have high standards but there's more open jobs than people looking. It's statistically impossible for every where here to actually have high standards and most startups just grab as many new grads as possible to get something built, regardless of sustainability of the code, so they can get more VC money.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2015 17:57
|
|
|
pr0zac posted:there's more open jobs than people looking. I don't understand why people actually think this edit: I think a better phrasing is "there are more open jobs than completely and immediately capable people looking"
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2015 18:10
|
|
|
ReverendCode posted:I think part of the problem is that people are equating in their heads a 7 week boot camp with a 4 year computer science degree, when they are not at all intended to provide the same path to employment. - Computer scientists have PhDs, not bachelor's degrees. - Very few new CS grads have the skill necessary for good code design or architecture upon graduation. To the extent that they gain that skill later, it comes from practice building large programs, not from studying more CS theory. - There isn't an equivalent to swinging hammers or turning wrenches in the world of code (at least in the places I've worked), because if you need to do a highly repetitive task twenty times in a row, you just use a loop, you don't code it repeatedly. Even if you wanted to replicate the code symbol for symbol, you can just copy-paste. Of course, there are still jobs of varying complexity, and junior engineer-type tasks may be relatively straightforward as far as programming goes, but they're still skilled labor. Now, I would expect that people graduating from CS programs will have stronger CS fundamentals, and will probably be better programmers overall, than people graduating from boot camps. But I think that's mainly a function of how much time you spend studying in each one.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2015 18:20
|
|
|
I'm the luckiest person alive and am getting groomed to move from T1 help desk to a Jr. Programming role over the next few months, despite not even having my AS yet. We're using C++, SQL, and C# for this project. I used C++ through a sophomore level, same with Java, never used SQL. I have the Java to C# cheat sheet from Microsoft's website. My main concern right now is getting SQL basics down. Does anyone have a recommended site like codecademy for SQL? Also the same question for the other languages, although I'm doing the "C# for Java developers" thing Microsoft has on their website.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2015 18:22
|
|
|
Munkeymon posted:The tech bubble thread leads me to believe you'll be looking at at least 4-5k/mo to live within an hour of downtown SF and it won't be nearly much room as you're used to at that range but they could be exaggerating since that's sort of the nature of YOSPOS. Yeah. More than a little bit.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2015 18:23
|
|
|
pr0zac posted:Ed: More seriously, everyone in the Bay Area claims to have high standards but there's more open jobs than people looking. It's statistically impossible for every where here to actually have high standards and most startups just grab as many new grads as possible to get something built, regardless of sustainability of the code, so they can get more VC money. Joel on Software had a piece on this, ten years ago, that still resonates with me. Everyone claims that they only want to hire the top 5% -- but that doesn't actually mean they get that. It means they get the top 5% of whatever pool of developers is still available after higher-profile companies have already taken a few top percent off it. The actual top 5% of the software industry are generally not in the job market. Realistically, most startups (and even most larger corporates) just want Good Enough To Not Require Handholding -- which is still a depressingly high bar, but far more attainable.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2015 18:25
|
|
|
22 Eargesplitten posted:My main concern right now is getting SQL basics down. Does anyone have a recommended site like codecademy for SQL? Also the same question for the other languages, although I'm doing the "C# for Java developers" thing Microsoft has on their website. Munkeymon posted:The tech bubble thread leads me to believe you'll be looking at at least 4-5k/mo to live within an hour of downtown SF and it won't be nearly much room as you're used to at that range but they could be exaggerating since that's sort of the nature of YOSPOS. edit: median rent in Oakland is 2k/month - http://blog.sfgate.com/ontheblock/2015/05/12/what-you-can-get-for-oaklands-median-1-bedroom-rent-of-2000-per-month/
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2015 18:25
|
|
|
22 Eargesplitten posted:Also the same question for the other languages, although I'm doing the "C# for Java developers" thing Microsoft has on their website. Read "C# In Depth" by Jon Skeet. It explains what makes C# better than Java very quickly and concisely.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2015 19:16
|
|
|
Ithaqua posted:quickly and concisely. ~650 pages, I think. Haha. (Great book.)
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2015 19:22
|
|
|
Thanks, but when I try that in Chrome or IE, I get an error whenever I submit the SQL. It says could not connect as root. Is that something on my side, or do they have something hosed up?
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2015 20:20
|
|
|
22 Eargesplitten posted:Thanks, but when I try that in Chrome or IE, I get an error whenever I submit the SQL. It says could not connect as root.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2015 20:24
|
|
|
JawnV6 posted:How do you know your process is any good? Just spitballing, but it might be worth seeing how a larger organization implements a process just so you're conscious of what you're avoiding when you start to implement your own. You might have a terrible process that's only saved by your unequaled brilliance. Well, sometimes it isn't! I suppose my answer to this question would be that it's a combination of reading, stuff learned in forums besides work (meet-ups or conferences or whatever), and getting burned by doing things that turn out to be difficult to manage down the road. Whether that's as good is harder for me to say, of course. However, I think working without help did make me a lot more proficient at debugging, doing research, and generally learning about the tools I was using than I would have been if I could easily ask someone. Actually, the guy I work with right now is much more experienced but, on the other hand, while he has a ton of experience doing C# desktop dev he's less experienced with the Web stuff (the core focus of our work) than I am so while I haven't been totally solo for a while now my experience might not be representative. Anyway, this is getting long-winded but in short I can see some advantages to both situations. It also might be good to mix it up, although I have to admit still being somewhat attracted to the idea of a job that's very similar to the one I have and mostly like except pays a lot more money.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2015 01:11
|
|
|
RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS posted:Anyway, this is getting long-winded but in short I can see some advantages to both situations. It also might be good to mix it up, although I have to admit still being somewhat attracted to the idea of a job that's very similar to the one I have and mostly like except pays a lot more money. Just how big is the money gap between the two jobs?
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2015 04:44
|
|
|
Skandranon posted:Just how big is the money gap between the two jobs? Between 10 and 40k, depending on where in their range they slot me. Also it is much closer and I wouldn't have to buy a commuter rail pass which ends up being pretty expensive.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2015 04:54
|
|
|
RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS posted:Between 10 and 40k, depending on where in their range they slot me. Also it is much closer and I wouldn't have to buy a commuter rail pass which ends up being pretty expensive. I would probably go with the more lone-wolf position then. Saving time on your commute is a big deal. If you save an hour overall from your commute vs other job, that's well over 10k/year. You can use that time to focus on making sure you aren't getting lazy or falling behind.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2015 05:37
|
|
|
I went from one hour each way down to 12 minutes each way and it changed my life. I didn't realize how soul sucking commuting is until my commute got a lot shorter. Now that I have a shorter commute I won't even consider a job unless it's within 30 minutes of my house, or the pay is enough that I can afford to move close to the office. I'm sure having kids who are in school will impact that kind of freedom in a few years though.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2015 08:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 20:13 |
|
|
it is posted:Help me settle an argument. Am I right that when you see C/C++ written on a resume like that, with the slash, that's a negative for you? I've never seen a resume where the person knew either C or C++ write it like that, and people who like one and hate the other generally tend to be good.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2015 11:56
|
|
