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Wow, I had no idea lambs were born with long tails like that! What's the process involved in docking?
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Apr 30, 2013 05:34
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Why do you have to dock the tails on sheep? Or can you let them keep their tails? I've seen it on TV and it seems harsh but I don't really know if it's painful for them or if it's necessary with a small flock. On an episode of Dirty Jobs he was helping a rancher and they were castrating the lambs by cutting them open and ripping the testicles out with their teeth. Gross.
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Apr 30, 2013 08:56
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lorabel posted:Why do you have to dock the tails on sheep? Or can you let them keep their tails? I've seen it on TV and it seems harsh but I don't really know if it's painful for them or if it's necessary with a small flock. If I remember from last year's thread, it's because they can easily get infected I think?
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Apr 30, 2013 13:25
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lorabel posted:On an episode of Dirty Jobs he was helping a rancher and they were castrating the lambs by cutting them open and ripping the testicles out with their teeth. Gross. Oh god, I think I've seen that one. Didn't they cook and eat the testicles afterwards?  That's...that's not standard practice, right?
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Apr 30, 2013 14:28
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lorabel posted:Why do you have to dock the tails on sheep? Or can you let them keep their tails? I've seen it on TV and it seems harsh but I don't really know if it's painful for them or if it's necessary with a small flock. Yeah, docking is one of those farm things that seem harsh but is actually pretty necessary in many cases. Wild sheep like the mouflon have short tails and hair instead of thick wool but when we put sheep to work for us we ended up with animals with long tails and thick wool all over their bodies. This can cause issues when you don't dock. Sheep tails aren't well controlled like dog and cat tails, they mostly just flop around like fish. Because of that they can gather a lot of feces and urine in the tail wool which can be invaded by flies and they get something called fly strike where maggots start eating away at their flesh. This is especially a problem for younger sheep who tend to scour (get diarrhea) easily and it becomes a huge mess. I have few enough sheep that I could probably not dock and just shear down their tails and crotch a couple of times a year. There's still a risk because fly strike can pop up really fast in fly season. If I miss one poopy butt at night I could come out in the morning to a sheep in serious pain. I also have to consider that I'm probably not going to own these sheep for their whole lives and not everyone would be willing to put that much effort into sheep tails. Its a lot easier to lop it off when they're tiny babies and heal super fast than as adults. I have two adults with tails which I just deal with because I don't want to put them through the stress of having them amputated. Dennis keeps his tail pristine. It's fluffy like a fox tail and he never gets poo on it and its fantastic. Dahlia gets hers totally filthy and I really have to stay on top of it. She has a habit of peeing on it and one time it managed to wick up the tail and give her (mild, luckily) urine scald on her haunches before I noticed and shaved her down. There are a couple ways to dock tails, you can remove the whole tail with some sort of blade or you can apply a tight rubber band and have the tail die and fall off. I really don't like banding and find the dead tail still attached really gross but its the most popular way to do it among medium to small sheep flocks I think. I use a tool called a "double crush emasculator" which is a clamp and a blade all built into a one tool. I give the lamb something for the pain (my vet gives it to me premeasured in syringes, this is a step most farmers forgo but I'm a huge softy), stuff them into the arm of a sweatshirt or have someone else hold them, and clamp and cut the tail at a length I feel is appropriate. I'm not going to say it doesn't hurt them or they don't even notice because that's not true at all, but they get up, get a drink from mom, and are up playing with their friends within the hour. There are some risks to tail docking. Banding especially has a risk of infection and tetanus so its important that you vaccinate your sheep and keep an eye open for signs of infection. If you don't apply fly repellent you can get the flystrike you were trying to prevent in the first place. There can be blood loss problems with the surgical method if you don't apply enough pressure to stop the bleeding while you're doing it. Also, if you dock too short you can increase the risk of rectal and vaginal prolapse. Here's Mike Rowe talking about his lamb processing experience and the differences he observed between just cutting and yanking and trying to band them. I think only old timey ranchers use their teeth. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-udsIV4Hmc Primrose had her tail done two weeks ago-ish and it looks like she was born with it that length. This is the length I like to keep them where its long enough to cover their whole butt but short enough that they can easily lift them to poo and not get them filthy.  Instant Jellyfish fucked around with this message at 15:03 on Apr 30, 2013 |
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Apr 30, 2013 15:01
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Instant Jellyfish: That's really interesting. It does seem like it would be harsher for the sheep to keep their tails if it meant that there's a high chance they're going to have insects eating it. Never occurred to me that it would be something that would happen-- I kind of figured that it was like certain dog breeds where the ears/tails are docked/cut because breeders think they're prettier that way. Basically I just thought it was "just because". Listening to you describe the two different methods, I have to say that the one you choose to do sounds better. Pain killers, quick, fly repellant, and she's up. Does it make you a softy to use pain killers? I think it sounds reasonable and responsible. I think it is a little scary that you'd be considered a big softy because you use pain killers before docking! I saw another documentary talking about Australian sheep that have been bred to have a lot of extra skin so that they have more wool and it doesn't really make sense because the animals get the fly problem that you mentioned for their tails all over their bodies instead and get cut up by the shearers because it's all flappy. Poor sheep. I had gotten into knitting and then felt kind of bothered by that in the same way when it comes to buying store eggs/meat. Do you sell your wool to people that turn it into clothes/yarn? Or do you raise them for meat and just shave yearly because it needs to be done? Or both? Primrose looks so adorable!
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Apr 30, 2013 15:38
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lorabel posted:Instant Jellyfish: That's really interesting. It does seem like it would be harsher for the sheep to keep their tails if it meant that there's a high chance they're going to have insects eating it. Never occurred to me that it would be something that would happen-- I kind of figured that it was like certain dog breeds where the ears/tails are docked/cut because breeders think they're prettier that way. Basically I just thought it was "just because". Some breeds are docked very very short "just because" it wins in shows. They dock surgically all the way up to the spine so the tail doesn't interfere with how the butt looks. This can cause serious problems with prolapses, especially for market lambs that are fed primarily highly concentrated grain rations instead of hay and pasture.  My operation is small enough that pain management is practical and affordable. If I was running 5000 head of range sheep it wouldn't be feasible either financially or practically. My sheep are all friendly and used to being handled so I can give them their meds and then let them loose for a bit for it to kick in and then catch them again without much stress. For thousands wild crazy lambs who have never been caught before this would be seriously stressful and take forever to finish so its faster to just cut and go. Merinos and some other finewool breeds do have very loose floppy skin so there is more places for wool to grow. This can cause flystike in the skin folds and increased risk of cutting them seriously during shearing (I hate shearing my cormos and the goats for this reason). Some people are even starting to breed alpacas with looser skin so they have more fleece which is a really bad idea. For sheep in Australia mulesing is a common practice to prevent flystrike in the buttflaps. Mulesing is skinning the area around the rump and crotch so the scar tissue keeps the skin there wool-free and less wrinkly. This is supposed to be phased out as people breed toward sheep with less skin folds near their butts. Its a procedure I wouldn't ever want to do but I guess it beats being eaten alive by maggots. I raise my sheep specifically for wool, which I turn in to yarn or sell raw to spinners. Eventually some of my boys will go for meat (there are a couple asking for it right now  ) but that isn't their primary purpose. If I just wanted meat I would have hair sheep because shearing is a big hassle. Don't feel bad about buying wool products though! All wool sheep need to be sheared or else the wool just grows and grows and is really uncomfortable for them.
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Apr 30, 2013 16:17
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Double posting with some pictures to make up for all the  and unpleasantness.Giant moose ears!  He's even got a spot right in the middle of his tongue.  "Mud is for eating, yes?"  Run!  She was considering eating a leaf. 
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Apr 30, 2013 17:00
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Instant Jellyfish posted:Double posting with some pictures to make up for all the May I suggested Amalthea for her name? After the goat that nursed Zeus.
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Apr 30, 2013 19:25
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Instant Jellyfish posted:Yeah, docking is one of those farm things that seem harsh but is actually pretty necessary in many cases. Wild sheep like the mouflon have short tails and hair instead of thick wool but when we put sheep to work for us we ended up with animals with long tails and thick wool all over their bodies. This can cause issues when you don't dock. Sheep tails aren't well controlled like dog and cat tails, they mostly just flop around like fish. Because of that they can gather a lot of feces and urine in the tail wool which can be invaded by flies and they get something called fly strike where maggots start eating away at their flesh. This is especially a problem for younger sheep who tend to scour (get diarrhea) easily and it becomes a huge mess. Can you post some videos of sheep with whole tails and/or pictures of your adults with long tails? I think I know what you're talking about when you say that they are floppy. Would you consider showing your sheep at all? The Big Whoop fucked around with this message at 06:19 on May 1, 2013 |
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May 1, 2013 06:16
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The Big Whoop posted:Can you post some videos of sheep with whole tails and/or pictures of your adults with long tails? I think I know what you're talking about when you say that they are floppy. Would you consider showing your sheep at all? Here's a whole bunch of tailed sheep. They have control of the top but the bottom just sort of hangs and flops. I'll try to get a video of Dennis' tail when I send him out tonight because its weird and just jerks around like crazy when he tries to shoo flies with it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osikRABMWIo I don't think I have any full on tail shots because its not usually the angle I take pictures of sheep from but you can see them in a few. Here's Dahlia but you can't really see her tail well. I sheared it in the fall so it sort of disappears into her butt fluff. It just hangs limply behind her for the most part.  And here's Twofer and Dennis' tail.  I would show my sheep if one of the breed clubs' AGMs were close enough. I'm planning on going to the Jacob sheep AGM the next time its in my region especially. I wouldn't try to show my sheep at a state fair sort of show though because my little primitives and finewool sheep can't compete with highly groomed club lambs specifically bred for winning fairs. Dennis was previously owned by a little boy who did a 4H show with him and got 7th out of 11. My dog's vet, who breeds angora goats too, is encouraging me to show those at a big show coming up that I'll be vending at but I'm hesitant. I guess with the goats you don't even need to get them to walk, you just drag them into the ring and drag them back out again. Since someone was asking about yarn here is some mohair yarn that I recently got back from the mill. This is the last shearing from the 4 year old silver buck I sold last year, who is Iph's dad. Since he's older and his mohair isn't as fine I had the mill add some firestar, which is a sparkly nylon fiber, to it just to make it a little more special. Its not soft enough for something right next to your skin but someone has already bought enough to make a pretty sparkly shawl with.   Most of the white mohair yarn from Dido and Electra gets sold dyed because dyeing is fun and people love the crazy colors. You can see the luster that mohair is known for. It really takes dye so nicely.  
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May 1, 2013 15:18
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Wh...what the hell is going on with the jacketed dude in the back?  Is that his head?
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May 1, 2013 16:26
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my cat is norris posted:Wh...what the hell is going on with the jacketed dude in the back? Haha, that's Page who is 90% fluff. She has her head down in that picture.  She was in with Al for 2 months but isn't pregnant. I don't think he could figure out what was going on under all that wool either.  Turns out she really is a sheep!  Not even that big of a sheep. She had nearly 6 lbs of wool on her. 
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May 1, 2013 16:42
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What a wooly little lady! Hahah, she has her very own chastity coat.
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May 1, 2013 18:25
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That reminds me (and I get this weird feeling of déjà vu, so maybe it's been discussed before?  ), I've heard of farmers marking the under bellies of male sheep with a colored chalky powder that rubs off easily. That way, when a female turns up with a red smear on her back, they know the boy in red mounted her? Is this practice common, or something only big farms do, or what?
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May 1, 2013 22:16
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Anoia posted:That reminds me (and I get this weird feeling of déjà vu, so maybe it's been discussed before? Marking harness or rattle powder is pretty common in range breeding situations where its important to know when and if all of your ewes have been bred. You either smear the ram's brisket with a pigment powder or put a harness with a special crayon in the front on him. When the ram mounts a ewe the color rubs off and you know who has been bred, when and by which ram if you have several in the field. You can change the color every cycle (about 17 days) to see if any ewes didn't take the first time and have needed to be rebred. I actually considered using marking harnesses last year but I was worried about whether or not the pigment would come out of the fleece. From what I was reading a lot of the marking crayons and rattle powders were labeled as being able to be scoured out but did not actually come out well at all. I figured I had always clearly seen my sheep in heat before so I could just be observant and know when they were do from that. Of course that meant they were all ultra stealthy and I didn't see anyone in heat or being bred so I had no idea when anyone was due. I need to look into foreign made marking harnesses this year. I think places with larger sheep populations probably have better sheep technology and are more likely to be scourable. Here's a marking harness in use:  Also I went to look at the craigslist baby goats and said I would take them. I'm picking them up in a couple of weeks once lambing is done. They're twin dominant white does carrying red, black and spots!
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May 2, 2013 01:34
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More babby goats? Hooray!  How many more of your sheeps have got lambs to pop out? Hope there's a few more of the fluffy little devils on the way. 
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May 2, 2013 05:11
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McDragon posted:More babby goats? Hooray! Just Jewel now and she's probably going to wait until the very last day. Prism just had her baby mooselings! Two giant ram lambs, a pure white 13.4 lb one and a 10.4 lb one thats all white except for little grey tips on his ears. Poor Moose seems to have mastitis on one side of her udder so she's working at half capacity. I'll pull a lamb or start supplementing if I need to but both boys had a good long drink from the working side and them messing with the backed up side (plus a good dose of antibiotics) will help clear it out if its not too damaged. Pictures in the morning! Now to hose off the goo I'm covered in, move the dog out of my spot, and get some sleep.
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May 2, 2013 07:28
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I promised cormo pictures so here are some cormo pictures. The big boy is sassy.  Perhaps too sassy.  He's pretty sweet at times too.  And so wrinkly!  Greytips is pretty adorable too.  Very very wrinkly.  If only you were a girl.  The boys together. 
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May 2, 2013 15:50
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Awww, those are the cutest wrinkles.  Congrats on another healthy, successful birthing!
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May 2, 2013 15:56
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Learning about why sheep tails get docked is fascinating. I'd suffer getting my tail clipped too if it meant flies wouldn't literally eat me. The chalk markings are a ingenious way of tracking what rams have been with what ewes. Also, sheep with chalk on their rumps makes me laugh.
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May 2, 2013 16:24
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With ears like that, he looks like he's ready for takeoff.
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May 2, 2013 16:27
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I'm kind of slap happy today after dealing with lambing all night and shearing all morning so I'm going to show off some sheep/goat products that I never thought about existing until I had a farm. First up is the current love of my life, ceramic cutters for my shears. They're 3x as expensive as steel ones but holy poo poo do they work better. With my filthy greasy Jacobs I was having to change cutters and combs in between every one I sheared, or sometimes halfway through shearing if I didn't keep them oiled and cool enough. My ceramic ones have done 3 sheep so far and haven't need to be changed out once. They're still as sharp as brand new and they're super easy to wipe grime off and keep going. The only problem is they break if you drop them and they can't be sharpened. Once they're dull you just have to get a new one.  Next, the sheep chair. I don't have one of these but they tempt me. Sheep are built like tables so when you wedge them on their butts they can't really escape or do anything but flail at you. I wonder if just a regular lawn chair would work.  If the marking harness blew your mind, check out the even fancier sheep breeding equipment that is available now. Just jam a CIDR insert all up in your ewe's business and when you take it out in a week or so she'll start cycling. These are used a lot for people who want to synchronize their whole flock so lambing/kidding is done quickly or for people doing AI and need to know exactly when to break out the semen. It sort of amazes me that you don't even need a script for this stuff.  Worried that your sheep isn't feeling enough shame after being stuffed in a lawn chair and probed? Then make them wear this skintight spandex outfit, call Sheep Tights. This is actually used for show sheep to keep their wool perfect but it looks totally ridiculous and I'm not sure how you would wrestle a sheep into it. They also come in camo, pink camo, and zebra stripe.  If you want to tattoo your animals, or unwitting friends, livestock supply stores have you covered. You can either get this convenient rotary clamp style if sequential numbers are all you need. There is also a clamp style one with interchangeable letters and numbers if the rotary doesn't have what you need.  Or if you want to go tattoo crazy on your livestock, you can get this pen style one meant for rabbits. This brand seems to be made out of electric toothbrushes, but its only $30!  This isn't even counting the "normal" farm stuff like huge jugs of lube, antibiotics for everyone, and more testicle removal or destruction devices than you can shake a stick at.
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May 2, 2013 22:30
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That chair cracks me up! You should get one of those. For the sake of  and 
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May 3, 2013 01:40
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Greycious posted:That chair cracks me up! You should get one of those. For the sake of Yeah, for the good of science I think we need pictures of Dennis in one of those. And then in some Sheep Tights.
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May 3, 2013 02:55
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McDragon posted:Yeah, for the good of science I think we need pictures of Dennis in one of those. Still waiting for Twofer's horns to be tennis-balled. Pink Camo is definitely Dennis' color.
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May 3, 2013 03:22
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AcetylCoA! posted:Still waiting for Twofer's horns to be tennis-balled. Pink Camo is definitely Dennis' color. I'm bringing him in to shear tomorrow! I'm down to my last 3 boys and then I'm done shearing! Until all 9 goats need shearing in the fall 
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May 3, 2013 03:26
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That spandex sheep made me  for a long time until I could work up the nerve to scroll past it.And that is to say nothing of the insertable instant ovulation device.
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May 3, 2013 04:54
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Instant Jellyfish posted:If the marking harness blew your mind, check out the even fancier sheep breeding equipment that is available now. Just jam a CIDR insert all up in your ewe's business and when you take it out in a week or so she'll start cycling. These are used a lot for people who want to synchronize their whole flock so lambing/kidding is done quickly or for people doing AI and need to know exactly when to break out the semen. It sort of amazes me that you don't even need a script for this stuff. So what, do you just walk up to your sheep all "Don't mind me just gonna jam this in your vagina real quick" or do you have to pin them down? Does it just yank out then? How do you fish it out? I'm so confused by this device my brain won't even process it!
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May 3, 2013 14:01
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Women's Rights? posted:So what, do you just walk up to your sheep all "Don't mind me just gonna jam this in your vagina real quick" or do you have to pin them down? Does it just yank out then? How do you fish it out? I'm so confused by this device my brain won't even process it! Usually you put them in a stand, tilt table, or sheep chair to do it. Shockingly sheep don't really like their butts messed with. Even just shearing back there can result in a bit of a rodeo. The implant has a little tail like a tampon so when its done you just restrain your sheep again and gently pull it out. If you're really curious my university extension office did a whole lecture series earlier this spring and one of them was on CIDR use in sheep and goats. I doubt I'll ever use them but it was interesting to learn about anyway.
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May 3, 2013 15:52
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Twofer wants to know why I would do this to him. Actually he got grain so he was pretty cool about the whole thing. Here's a better picture of Dennis' tail for the person who was curious.  These two are BFFs. The white one is now Sherman, the spotty one is Goliath.  Maybe dirt really is for eating.  Mmmm dirt.  Goes down smooth.  Then came lamb races.   Random chunk of metal left here by meth heads is home base.  Romeldales got things started.  Someone (an adult!) at shearing day asked how to tell the difference between boy and girl lambs. The testes and penis are a big giveaway   Run boys!   The jacobs caught up and they booked it to the happy fun hole.    I love watching the babies The new cormo lambs aren't getting enough from miss moose so bucket mom will have a couple of new charges. The big one is taking to the fake nipples well but little grey tips is resisting. Moosey is still producing a little bit of milk from the good side of her udder so I'm not doing the ever 4 hour around the clock schedule but they need a bit of a boost.
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May 3, 2013 21:43
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Instant Jellyfish posted:Twofer wants to know why I would do this to him. Yess!!! He looks like he has deely boppers!
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May 3, 2013 21:55
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I read the posts about docking a couple times, so I don't think this has been asked/answered, but considering all the negatives regarding long sheep tails, why do they naturally have such long tails, if they just get icky/bitten up? Unrelated - did I miss why Twofer has tennis balls on his badass horns?
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May 3, 2013 22:20
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morcant posted:I read the posts about docking a couple times, so I don't think this has been asked/answered, but considering all the negatives regarding long sheep tails, why do they naturally have such long tails, if they just get icky/bitten up? We were discussing horn safety and someone mentioned putting balls on the end of horns so they don't poke folks. People wanted to see it so Two got to be ridiculous. He's a big teddy bear so its easy to do things to him. I don't know how modern sheep ended up with such long tails if they are such an issue. There are breeds of sheep with naturally short or wide or hairless tails that don't need to be docked for people who find it really distasteful. Hair sheep, such as katahdins and dorpers, don't have the heavy wool so no need to worry about long tails. Finn Sheep, Romanov, East Friesian, Shetland, Icelandic, and Soay sheep all have short hairless tails that don't need to be docked. Fat tailed sheep had junk in the trunk that they use like a camel's hump and mostly come from really arid regions so you don't see them much in the US and Europe.  Long tails are hard to breed away from. It's a trait that seems to be lost pretty quickly in cross breeding and tail length is highly variable between individuals. Jacobs are supposed to have a tail that reaches the hocks but not longer or else its supposed to be evidence of cross breeding so they actually put some thought into tail length in choosing breeding groups. In my purebred jacobs I have had lambs with tails above the hocks, tails at the hocks, and long crazy tails that practically drag on the ground. All from the same parents! You would have to sacrifice a lot of other traits and risk eliminating a lot of genetic diversity to just breed for tail length.
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May 3, 2013 22:42
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Instant Jellyfish posted:
...I can't be the only one who's all  at giant fluffy sheep balls, am I?
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May 4, 2013 00:12
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Tasty_Crayon posted:...I can't be the only one who's all The one on the right, Hermes, actually has really tiny balls for a sheep because he's been castrated with a burdizzo tool. They're all little and hard and non-functional now, just hanging in his little sheep coinpurse. Dennis has pretty average sheep balls, they reach almost to his hocks and are about as big around as a tennis ball in the widest part. Just wait until Heathgoat has giant grown goat balls. Odysseus, the buck we used to have, had balls that nearly reached the ground. When I was shearing one of the boy's belly today I could see his balls suck back up into his body as I got closer with my shears and then as I moved away they slid right back down. It was super weird looking.
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May 4, 2013 00:51
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The baby cormos are starting to grow and become less wrinkly with some extra food in their bellies. They are having trouble with the hard rubber nipples on bucket mom so they're getting bottles regularly but as they get bigger and stronger they should be able to switch over. They're still pretty wrinkly though.  Big boy and his airplane ears.  Greytips and too many legs.  Eatin' a stump. 
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May 6, 2013 16:04
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Rabbits!   
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May 7, 2013 00:59
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notsowelp posted:Rabbits! Lookit them buns! I don't think baby bunnies can be any more adorable. And yours are in such an awesome variety of colors. I like how the one's face is split so neatly down the center with orange and black. You'll have to post more pictures as they open their eyes and become little mini buns instead of blind hamsters.
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May 8, 2013 01:42
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Notsowelp, do you ever just take a baby bunny and, like, lie down and lay it across your face like its an eye-mask? Cause that seems like it would be very therapeutic.
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May 8, 2013 04:33
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