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For anyone wanting to visit an Orthodox church, this link makes good reading: 12 Things I Wished I'd Known by Frederica Mathewes-Green, an Orthodox convert & author who is a "Khouria" (Arab title for a priest's wife).
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Jun 13, 2013 11:19
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Moscow Mule posted:For anyone wanting to visit an Orthodox church, this link makes good reading: 12 Things I Wished I'd Known "Come, let us complete our prayer to the Lord": the closest thing to comedy in the Divine Liturgy.
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Jun 13, 2013 11:48
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Before I visited the Greek church last winter, I honestly had trouble figuring out what the heck is going on in the liturgy. You can read the Divine Liturgy online or even watch videos, but still have trouble following it if all you've ever known is a Catholic or Episcopal liturgy. It only clicked for me when I actually saw one in person. And yes, you don't really need to do much. You don't even have to sing along with the choir. That was one thing that took some getting used to, considering how big a role the hymnal plays in Anglican liturgy. The other thing was how so much of what the priest did was out of sight and out of earshot, including much of the Eucharistic prayer. They did, however, insist that I take the antidoron at the end. They also gave me that Mathewes-Green article as a brochure. I think it's still in my trunk, mainly because I never clean it.
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Jun 13, 2013 14:32
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When in doubt, find a little old lady, preferably one who has her head covered, stand behind her, and ape what she does, minus taking Communion. Always worked anytime I've had to go to a service, except the one time I was in the front pew and couldn't see a little old lady to mimic. edit: I am agnostic, never brought up in a church, extended family is Roman Catholic, I just like hearing about other people's traditions and rituals. I like to be culturally literate. Hoover Dam fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Jun 13, 2013 |
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Jun 13, 2013 16:32
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Neat thread. Put me down as a type-1 Roman Catholic. I was pulled into ushering at my parish several years ago, and when the usher captain at my service got too infirm to keep going, I got the job through the simple expedient of being the able-bodied guy who showed up every week. Bad news for the Saturday night service, although the church hasn't burned down on my watch yet. My parish seems to be a little more obsessed with the precise scripting of the Mass than some others of my experience. Our masters-of-ceremonies are active participants in each weekend service and run a tight ship. I'm a nerd with a lot of education, and I appreciate the entire order of the Mass, both from the perspective of history and tradition, where all of this comes from and why things happen on a spiritual level, and also from the purely practical perspective of making sure 400+ people get the hour-long experience they expect without anything going wrong.
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Jun 13, 2013 20:11
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IMJack posted:I was pulled into ushering at my parish several years ago, and when the usher captain at my service got too infirm to keep going, I got the job [...] Our masters-of-ceremonies are active participants in each weekend service and run a tight ship. This sounds scarier than any hellfire or brimstone I've ever heard of 
Lutha Mahtin fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Jun 14, 2013 |
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Jun 14, 2013 01:59
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So what's the rules about being in the OP? Do I not get in until I've been Baptized?
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Jun 14, 2013 02:03
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NewtGoongrich posted:My mom's side of the family is/was Lutheran. I remember being told "Lutherans are Catholics" (or something along those lines) a few times throughout my childhood. Could anyone shed light on this? It may also stem from the idea that both Lutherans and Catholics (and some other denominations) are considered "high church" I think due to the more elaborate rituals and pageantry we have in our services. Wife's answer: If you're talking about "catholic" in the sense of the nicene creed and the apostles creed where it talks about one holy apostolic catholic church which is part of the Lutheran confessional, it's talking about the universal church in the sense that all Christians are in Christ, therefore all Christians make up the body of the universal church. But if you're using it to talk about the Catholic denomination as in Rome and the Pope, although we have Catholic heritage through Martin Luther we are not Catholic. So Lutherans are catholics, but not Catholics.
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Jun 14, 2013 04:24
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Smoking Crow posted:So what's the rules about being in the OP? Do I not get in until I've been Baptized? You don't get in until you ask. A lot of other people who just say "I'm X" don't get in because they don't ask and I don't know whether or not they're OK with it. I don't want to pressure people. I'll add you if you want. 
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Jun 14, 2013 05:13
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Yeah sure, let me in.
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Jun 14, 2013 05:22
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Why do (some of?) the LCMS Divine Service liturgies eliminate the Eucharistic Prayer? Do other Lutherans do this too? Having gone to enough Episcopal services now, it feels a bit jarring to go straight from the Sanctus to the Words of Institution.
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Jun 14, 2013 05:59
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HEGEL SMOKE A J posted:If you receive Communion in the wrong state of mind or with sins on your soul, the belief is that it could hurt you or make you sick. I have a question re Orthodox worship. I'm disabled, but I look perfectly healthy. In practice, I can't stand for twenty minutes, let alone an hour. If I bring my folding cane and sit on it, will people be offended?
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Jun 14, 2013 06:09
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No, there are usually benches for disabled or sick people at Orthodox churches.
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Jun 14, 2013 06:10
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Also, people usually mind their own business during church. Like, I've seen plenty of people pray seemingly undisturbed while a child bumbles about on the floor among their legs, or the person next to them decides to kneel before Communion, or someone leaves and then comes back.
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Jun 14, 2013 06:27
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Why aren't Ecumenical Councils called more often in the Orthodox Church? Like, why can't we all decide that yes, shellfish are animals, so you can't eat them during a fast? I tried looking online for a reason, but everything seems so...Byzantine.
Smoking Crow fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Jun 15, 2013 |
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Jun 14, 2013 17:00
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I'm a soon to be seminarian in Unitarian Universalism, and one of the few things I'm jealous of Christian traditions/ and their ministers are the vestments. All we get is pretty pretty stoles and (usually black, but sometimes white) robes.
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Jun 14, 2013 17:12
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A liturgy mega-thread...this is making me positively quiver with glee. I am an atheist but I was raised in a South Indian (Kerala) Pentecostal denomination in the U.S. (Church of God). Despite the fundamentalist bent of my parents, historically my family has belonged to other denominations. I count Catholics, Oriental Orthodox and Anglicans among my relatives, and love liturgy. I seriously can't stand the tepid, slim-jeans and latte holding aesthetic of modern evangelical services. Modern worship music makes me grieve.
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Jun 14, 2013 17:46
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Question for the Orthodox in the thread: what's the view/tends to be the view of your respective churches on Vatican II and the changes to the Catholic Church since (if they have any views, that is)? I know Orthodoxy places a premium on continuity and timelessness; the traditionalist* Catholic qualms with Vatican II have been over what some perceive as a modernization and liberalization of the Church, revisions to the liturgy, changes to the calendar, changes to devotional practices etc. *Those of us in good standing with the Holy See, not the SSPX crowd and the Sedevacantists.
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Jun 14, 2013 19:31
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Smoking Crow posted:Why aren't Ecumenical Councils called more often in the Orthodox Church? Like, why can't we all decide that yes, shellfish are animals, so you can't eat them during a fast? I tries looking online for a reason, but everything seems so...Byzantine. Roark posted:Question for the Orthodox in the thread: what's the view/tends to be the view of your respective churches on Vatican II and the changes to the Catholic Church since (if they have any views, that is)? I know Orthodoxy places a premium on continuity and timelessness; the traditionalist* Catholic qualms with Vatican II have been over what some perceive as a modernization and liberalization of the Church, revisions to the liturgy, changes to the calendar, changes to devotional practices etc. I also think I remember reading somewhere a number of Orthodox hoping that Vatican 2 would lead to the Catholics becoming Orthodox. It didn't work out that way, but the 70s were a time in which Catholic interest in Eastern Christianity increased. My answer is shaded by the fact that I used to be a Tridentine Rite Catholic and am now Orthodox, and on top of that that I'm unusually liberal for my denomination, and probably for my society. Radio Talmudist posted:A liturgy mega-thread...this is making me positively quiver with glee.  Do you have any photos from Indian Orthodox ceremonies?
HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 04:40 on Jun 15, 2013 |
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Jun 14, 2013 22:05
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Dominus Vobiscum posted:Why do (some of?) the LCMS Divine Service liturgies eliminate the Eucharistic Prayer? Do other Lutherans do this too? Having gone to enough Episcopal services now, it feels a bit jarring to go straight from the Sanctus to the Words of Institution. I posted the most common liturgy of the church I belong to earlier. At least the Eucharistic Prayer exists there, although now that I google it in English, we seem to lack the exchange between the priest and the congregation. There's some inconsistency in naming the parts of the liturgy but I suppose that's my misunderstanding. The Wikipedia pages aren't the clearest possible.
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Jun 14, 2013 22:30
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HEGEL SMOKE A J posted:
If you look up Syrian Orthodox, you'll find plenty of footage (The Orthodox Church in India is in communion with the Syrian Church, I believe). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG9_q8y5wRs
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Jun 14, 2013 23:04
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Please add me to the list of Catholics with the following designation: I am a practicing Catholic who attends Mass every Sunday and on all other Holy Days of Obligation, does not accept the Eucharist unless I am in a state of grace, and goes to Confession at least once a month. I support all Catholic doctrines, and enjoy studying Catholic history and theology. Question for some of you Eastern Orthodox folks: Why don't you accept the Gregorian calendar already? The Julian is obviously wrong. Eventually you guys will be celebrating Easter in Winter.
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Jun 14, 2013 23:13
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Kyrie eleison posted:Please add me to the list of Catholics with the following designation: We basically have with the New Julian calendar. But the reason we don't go all the way (and the reason some churches have not gone to the New Julian, and even some others have broken communion with us) is because of an irrational fear of "ecumenism." TBH I think it's pharasaical nonsense but there are plenty who would disagree with me.
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Jun 14, 2013 23:52
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Valiantman posted:I posted the most common liturgy of the church I belong to earlier. At least the Eucharistic Prayer exists there, although now that I google it in English, we seem to lack the exchange between the priest and the congregation. There's some inconsistency in naming the parts of the liturgy but I suppose that's my misunderstanding. The Wikipedia pages aren't the clearest possible. I'm pretty sure it's a Missouri Synod quirk, as the liturgy you posted does include it. I remember growing up that we would always finish singing the Sanctus and the pastor would immediately start blessing the elements with "Our Lord Jesus Christ, on the night in which he was betrayed..." without any prayer prefacing it. It seems one of the Divine Service settings in the new LCMS service book retains a Eucharistic prayer but the others don't. I have no idea what the other American synods do.
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Jun 15, 2013 01:58
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Dominus Vobiscum posted:I'm pretty sure it's a Missouri Synod quirk, as the liturgy you posted does include it. I remember growing up that we would always finish singing the Sanctus and the pastor would immediately start blessing the elements with "Our Lord Jesus Christ, on the night in which he was betrayed..." without any prayer prefacing it. It seems one of the Divine Service settings in the new LCMS service book retains a Eucharistic prayer but the others don't. I have no idea what the other American synods do. As someone who grew up in the ELCA*, when I read the service outline posted by the Finnish goon I basically just went "yup" because it's really similar. The only non-ELCA services I remember going to off the top of my head are LCMS, some conservative Free Lutheran church, and I performed for a service at the big cathedral on the hill in Reykjavik once. But they were all very similar. I'm gonna do a big post on the ELCA and some related American Lutheran stuff, so I'll go more into some liturgy stuff then. * The ELCA didn't exist when I was born, but that's another story, too. Lutha Mahtin fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Jun 15, 2013 |
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Jun 15, 2013 02:19
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Ladies here, especially in the super traditional denominations: Do you wear a veil to services?
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Jun 15, 2013 02:23
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Hoover Dam posted:Ladies here, especially in the super traditional denominations: Do you wear a veil to services? I wear a scarf on my head, because I really don't like the feel of a chapel veil and anything that's held on just by pins will get pulled off and gnawed by my son. I started doing it when I started attending the Extraordinary Form (a.k.a. Tridentine Mass), and then since the Ordinary Form is no less the Mass than the Extraordinary Form, started doing it whenever I attended Mass.
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Jun 15, 2013 02:50
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Lutha Mahtin posted:As someone who grew up in the ELCA*, when I read the service outline posted by the Finnish goon I basically just went "yup" because it's really similar. The only non-ELCA services I remember going to off the top of my head are LCMS, some conservative Free Lutheran church, and I performed for a service at the big cathedral on the hill in Reykjavik once. But they were all very similar. Figures. As with most things Missouri, the answer is probably either "C.F.W. Walther did it that way" or "Martin Luther wrote an offhand statement complaining about eucharistic prayers and we ran with it." American Lutheranism can definitely get a bit "Judean People's Front"-like. I'm looking forward to reading your post. Despite having generally moved away from Lutheranism, some of the Lutheran traditions, beliefs, and practices still hold a certain appeal.
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Jun 15, 2013 02:58
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Hoover Dam posted:Ladies here, especially in the super traditional denominations: Do you wear a veil to services? Kyrie eleison posted:Question for some of you Eastern Orthodox folks: Why don't you accept the Gregorian calendar already? The Julian is obviously wrong. HEGEL SMOKE A J posted:Change is bad. quote:Eventually you guys will be celebrating Easter in Winter. 
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Jun 15, 2013 03:10
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Also, the Gregorian Calendar was sponsored by Pope Gregory XIII, and we don't play ball with the Bishop of Rome anymore.
Smoking Crow fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Jun 15, 2013 |
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Jun 15, 2013 03:39
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Hoover Dam posted:Ladies here, especially in the super traditional denominations: Do you wear a veil to services? I wear a handkerchief on my head, exactly like this random character from the Simpsons does: http://i.imgur.com/QHwP7mc.gif Only one other woman in our parish wears a head-covering during church. She's in her 70s and is a recent immigrant from Iraq whose family left because things are extremely dangerous for religious minorities there now. However the other women/girls in her family don't wear anything on their heads. When I go to an Eastern Rite service, I try to wear something that covers more hair and looks like what most of the other women are wearing.
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Jun 15, 2013 06:29
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When I was a kid, an Antiochian Orthodox parish sprouted up across the street from us (kinda ruralish area in southcentral Alaska) after the previous neighbours (it was a farm-ish sort of property) were evicted due to being drug dealers. Naturally, I ended up socializing a bit with the young'uns from there. One Sunday I snuck over to attend matins and liturgy (and a couple of vespers after that) just 'cause it was something I'd never experienced (the fact that I had a crush on one of the Orthodox girls totally didn't factor into this, honest). This must have been around 1998 or so. Anyway, I clearly remember the event as the whole thing was so moving. All my previous church experience had been some normal American Baptist stuff from years before. However, the Orthodox didn't just talk about God, they actually worshipped him. That was really something I'd never seen before. I guess the whole experience is hard to describe unless you've been there. However, the difference between a Protestant service and an Orthodox service is like "blah blah blah Jesus, blah blah blah" and tearing up and prostrating out of sheer joy. I'm sure we could analyze this from a psychological perspective and arrive at various explanations, but seriously, if you've never been to an Orthodox service, it's totally worth the visit, even if it's from a sceptical perspective. The whole thing is just plain neat (assuming you appreciate singing and ritual).
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Jun 15, 2013 11:04
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comaerror posted:I'm sure we could analyze this from a psychological perspective and arrive at various explanations, but seriously, if you've never been to an Orthodox service, it's totally worth the visit, even if it's from a sceptical perspective. The whole thing is just plain neat (assuming you appreciate singing and ritual). Frank Shaeffer expressed the experience nicely (here, I think) as being a bit of a Jurassic Park moment. You've been studying dinosaurs for years in the abstract, and there it, a big snorting dinosaur, before your very eyes. If you've been reading about the early church, the desert fathers, ancient worship, et. al., it's a rude shock to find the self-same Church, hiding in plain sight, performing the same ancient liturgy in some dinky little church behind a strip-mall in Boise, Idaho, where a fourth-century Christian could wander in and give the proper responses to every prayer.
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Jun 15, 2013 13:57
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HEGEL SMOKE A J posted:Also, we didn't want to break with the calendar that we had up until then been using because it would have meant not celebrating the feasts on the same days that our ancestors had, which is kind of unnerving, as well as using a different algorithm to calculate Easter, which would mean that Easter isn't "really" celebrated on the same day that it always had been. Since the Julian calendar is a solar calendar, and it's "wrong", doesn't this mean any Christians using it haven't "really" been celebrating things on the correct day ever? My reasoning here is that the Julian calendar was at least one day off before the Gospels were even written. And yes, this is a totally serious question and not just me being a goony goon :iamafag:
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Jun 15, 2013 17:15
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Hoover Dam posted:Ladies here, especially in the super traditional denominations: Do you wear a veil to services?
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Jun 15, 2013 21:26
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Lutha Mahtin posted:This sounds scarier than any hellfire or brimstone I've ever heard of It's a special kind of Hell, but probably still the least of what I deserve.
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Jun 15, 2013 22:05
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Moscow Mule posted:...and looks like what most of the other women are wearing. I was at a Coptic liturgy once and all the ladies' head coverings had ornate pictures of saints and patriarchs on the back, so it looked like there was an entire beardy congregation facing the wrong way.
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Jun 15, 2013 22:46
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Lutha Mahtin posted:Since the Julian calendar is a solar calendar, and it's "wrong", doesn't this mean any Christians using it haven't "really" been celebrating things on the correct day ever? My reasoning here is that the Julian calendar was at least one day off before the Gospels were even written. And yes, this is a totally serious question and not just me being a goony goon :iamafag: Edit: I used to believe there was a mystical significance to the Julian calendar, which the people who made the Gregorian calendar had entirely ignored. After learning more about the history behind it, I realized that was bullshit, but it's not uncommon as an idea in the Orthodox churches.. http://ecumenizm.tripod.com/ECUMENIZM/id10.html http://www.3saints.com/oldcalendar.html Bob Nudd posted:I was at a Coptic liturgy once and all the ladies' head coverings had ornate pictures of saints and patriarchs on the back, so it looked like there was an entire beardy congregation facing the wrong way. IMJack posted:It's a special kind of Hell, but probably still the least of what I deserve. 
HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Jun 15, 2013 |
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Jun 15, 2013 23:05
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HEGEL SMOKE A J posted:Correct here means "same." The Julian calendar has been a little hosed forever, but if we stay with it at least we'll be hosed in the same way that we were in the past. For Catholics, "correct" tends to mean "correct." But I will hold out hope that in a few dozen millennia when your Easter finally aligns with ours again you will see it as a convenient opportunity to switch up without disrupting things. I don't really mind if it is "New Julian" instead of "Gregorian," but let's be sensible. HEGEL SMOKE A J posted:Change, as I said, is bad. The change in attitudes toward authority, the relationship of the hierarchy to the laity, and the relationship of Catholicism to other religions is good, but then they hosed up the liturgy, so...bad. I do know that Vatican 2 decided that the Roman Catholics should stop trying to Romanize the Catholics who practice other rites, so that met with a very favorable reception, especially where it involved Slavic peoples. Though I consider myself somewhat strict and old-fashioned, I do admire the Council. I don't really see it as my place to seriously dispute the decisions of councils. As you said, there were many great elements of it in terms of ecumenism. I am glad the Mass is in English. I am glad I get to sing. I am fortunate to attend a Cathedral, which has a rather ornate production, an excellent choir which sings in plenty of Latin as well; however I do feel it's a shame when I go to a church with a magnificent altar and the priests have to do their consecrations on a table before it. It's not enough for me to declare the seat is vacant (besides, I respect all the Holy Fathers since the Council), but I would rather the priest face the beautiful altar during the consecration in these sorts of churches. I think it's good for liturgy to update and change with the times, but to retain the essence of the old ways. Ritual is there to help us along in our faith, so if it becomes a stumbling block then it is doing a disservice to the congregation. The ritual is not, itself, the point. As for Eastern Orthodox services, I have never attended one, but I went to a Russian Orthodox cathedral nearby during off-hours and it was awe-inspiring inside. I have an affinity for the EO, as do most Catholics it seems, and a curiosity about their liturgy (although it sounds a bit difficult to endure). At some point I'll have to stand-in on one.
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Jun 15, 2013 23:58
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Kyrie eleison posted:For Catholics, "correct" tends to mean "correct." But I will hold out hope that in a few dozen millennia when your Easter finally aligns with ours again you will see it as a convenient opportunity to switch up without disrupting things. I don't really mind if it is "New Julian" instead of "Gregorian," but let's be sensible. You "don't mind" what we call it, as long as we end up changing ourselves to be more like you? How generous. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Jun 16, 2013 |
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Jun 16, 2013 00:19
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