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dik-dik posted:I like to hope that they have a cool story for why and how he turned against the other sensates but yeah, I realize this is a foolish thing to hope for. After twelve hours and we still know nothing about his motivations other than he is a generic bad guy.
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Jun 7, 2015 16:07
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Open Source Idiom posted:I think that's down the road. Oh, for sure. I'm sure we'll get the backstory, I'm just not holding my breath on it being anything great. I think Whispers is part of Jonas and Angelica's cluster, but I'm not sure. Either way, I'm fairly certain the Icelandic sensate is part of a different cluster because we never see her interacting with Jonas, Angelica, or Whispers. If she were part of Whispers' cluster he probably would have killed or captured her boy now—unless she's secretly working with him! spooky!—and if she were part of Jonas and Angelica's cluster, even if they weren't in the same cluster as Whispers, he would have gotten to her through one of them.
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Jun 7, 2015 16:18
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Combat Pretzel posted:The series was pretty cool, tho I hope it gets renewed with what explaining nothing and all. And less pushing of an agenda by Lana Wachowski. Depicting trans and gay characters with compassion and normalcy is "an agenda", I guess? Having (entire series)Nomi be trans actually adds to the variety and depth entire group's story. The transcendental humanism of the show is more impressive when its premises are more radical. Nomi's stay in the hospital is a bit more scary and offensive. The orgy scene blurs more lines. The birth-memory scene gains a bitter memory to balance out the sweet. It's funny to see people being off-put by the trans and gay characters in a show that is wholly about the transcendence of traditional identity. Those characters aren't superfluous, they're integral.
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Jun 7, 2015 16:22
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dik-dik posted:Oh, for sure. I'm sure we'll get the backstory, I'm just not holding my breath on it being anything great. ep12: They most likely are not from same cluster. Remember that every member has to been born in same day and both Whispers and Yrsa are much older than anyone else.
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Jun 7, 2015 16:23
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Crash74 posted:After twelve hours and we still know nothing about his motivations other than he is a generic bad guy. By design. This season is all about the people within the cluster, their individual crises, and how they bond by working together to resolve those issues. They have no incentive to learn more about the man trying to kill them all; all they need to know is to stay the gently caress away from him.
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Jun 7, 2015 16:24
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amusinginquiry posted:Depicting trans and gay characters with compassion and normalcy is "an agenda", I guess? Saying "i love you" "That was great baby" "I love dat rear end baby cakes" ": I love you too, babygirl" ect. after a passionate love scene between lovers (doesn't matter what they are) would be what someone would say. What they said was stupid and forced. Destroying any sympathy that you just had with them. Hnnngggg SUPPORT OUR TROOPS would have been just as bad.
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Jun 7, 2015 16:59
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Crash74 posted:Saying "i love you" "That was great baby" "I love dat rear end baby cakes" ": I love you too, babygirl" ect. after a passionate love scene between lovers (doesn't matter what they are) would be what someone would say. What they said was stupid and forced. Destroying any sympathy that you just had with them. Hnnngggg SUPPORT OUR TROOPS would have been just as bad. Nomi and what's her name's relationship came off as terribly one-note a lot of the time, I agree. Definitely had some cringe worthy interactions. When people talk about"pushing agendas" I just kind of feel like they mean more than poor writing and hokey dialogue. Unless they mean that the Wachowskis are so concerned with portraying trans characters in such a good light that they end up writing bad characters as a result, which is fair, though I don't think it's the case.
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Jun 7, 2015 17:06
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DivisionPost posted:By design. This season is all about the people within the cluster, their individual crises, and how they bond by working together to resolve those issues. They have no incentive to learn more about the man trying to kill them all; all they need to know is to stay the gently caress away from him. So basically Lost 2.0 eta until terrible Deus Ex Machina ending: t- 5 years
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Jun 7, 2015 17:12
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Crash74 posted:So basically Lost 2.0 That brain thing that Nomi had? Turns out she's been in a coma this entire time and these are the last moments before she dies. Pan camera to snowglobe that says "Eight Sense"
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Jun 7, 2015 17:42
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Postal Parcel posted:That brain thing that Nomi had? Turns out she's been in a coma this entire time and these are the last moments before she dies. Yea but what's in the bunker?
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Jun 7, 2015 17:45
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amusinginquiry posted:It's funny to see people being off-put by the trans and gay characters in a show that is wholly about the transcendence of traditional identity. Those characters aren't superfluous, they're integral.
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Jun 7, 2015 18:02
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Combat Pretzel posted:I actually don't have a problem with that per-se. I actually come to like Jamie Clayton for instance via this series. Given that the Wachowski's are involved, I expected some story points in that regard, but things like the soaking wet dildo scene (or cheesy sex scenes in general) or the mom with comicbook villain-style ignorance were kind of blunt hits over the head that could have been toned down. A lot. LOL mom was a better villain than the actual villain.
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Jun 7, 2015 18:15
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Combat Pretzel posted:I actually come to like Jamie Clayton for instance via this series. Having just looked her up to see which cast member she was I just found out the answer to a question I had but forgot to look up while watching the series: namely was Nomi's actress a transgender person herself. Which she apparently is. Which is nice. One thing I do like about Netflix series is that they tend to use a lot of unknown actors and actresses for their series, most of whom seem to be just as good as the regular spate of people you'd in most American shows, and if Marco Polo and this are anything to go by, having a wider scope than "American city" in general too.
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Jun 7, 2015 18:21
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Michael's mom seemed ok.
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Jun 7, 2015 18:32
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Wait, what? I actually considered that when watching it, but i dismissed it too meta and unlikely. I'm sure there are good trans actresses, but finding one that good, that hasn't already been on something i've seen is a surprise. Because i will watch pretty much anything if its good. I do have one issue with the show thinking back, i'd forgotten about that appalling contemporary theater piece. Subject matter aside contemporary dance or theater is the pits, i loving hate it. It's pretentious bollocks that makes me want to punch things . Always makes be think of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APjDtBNZiNA Nothing worse
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Jun 7, 2015 18:47
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Episode 5: I liked when the Indian lady saw the German dude's dong and fainted
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Jun 7, 2015 19:09
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Crash74 posted:Saying "i love you" "That was great baby" "I love dat rear end baby cakes" ": I love you too, babygirl" ect. after a passionate love scene between lovers (doesn't matter what they are) would be what someone would say. What they said was stupid and forced. Destroying any sympathy that you just had with them. Hnnngggg SUPPORT OUR TROOPS would have been just as bad. It was a joke. If anything, I read it as pretty self-deprecating, and definitely not driving some "agenda." How would that even work? Get over it. They also made basically the exact same joke about fireworks after loving on July 4th, but apparently that doesn't bother you. Maybe making cheesy current events jokes after sex is just their thing. I've certainly had weirder things in relationships I've been in. Also it's pretty normal and common for people to discuss or make jokes about things other than the sex they're having or how much they love each other before/during/after sex. The funny thing is that the show is equally unsubtle about all the other issues that it discusses (Kenyan poverty, crime, and HIV; wealth inequality; faith and tradition vs science and reason; psychedelic drugs; the police; gender inequality; healthcare rights; etc, etc, etc.) but the only one that is really pissing people off is LGBT rights. Combat Pretzel posted:things like the soaking wet dildo scene (or cheesy sex scenes in general) or the mom with comicbook villain-style ignorance were kind of blunt hits over the head that could have been toned down. A lot. You could say this about every single thing in the show, though. Why are you singling out this one issue? Like, there was literally a scene where Wolfgang asked Kala "how can you have faith when you're a scientist?" and she said that she sees them as different ways of viewing reality or whatever and another scene where the women in the Korean prison have a very candid, on the nose discussion about gender inequality in Korea they even had multiple scenes in a loving Holocaust memorial. Also I don't see how the soaking wet dildo is pushing an "agenda." I just thought it was hilarious. Maybe their agenda was to make me laugh? It worked. dik-dik fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Jun 7, 2015 |
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Jun 7, 2015 19:13
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Actually we talked about this in irc and came to the conclusion that yeah Nomi's arc is often really token and reductive to "she's a trans character and here is her STRUGGLE!" It doesn't help that she's the character most directly interacting with the main Grand Conspiracy plot, which is both the least interesting and flattest part of the show, but it's also a plot about a single character struggling against an entrenched system out to destroy her so in other words really obvious symbolism for the struggles she's going through as a trans person Which i think was overall intentional, i think the wachowskis chose Nomi as the one to carry the A-story because it's most directly analogous to her status as a trans character, but the wachowskis don't have the writing chops to portray it with any nuance Nomi's mom is the worst example of this; i know people like her exist but it's hard to believe that she would willingly be part of Nomi's world because she was so flatly evil and hateful but yeah, Nomi's arc throughout the show and stories feels often like she's a token, where she's both saintly and has to struggle against really obvious and overemphasized scenes of trans hate and when she's not doing that she's caught inside the overall kind of boring main plot which is itself a direct analogy to trans people's sufferings i would place the blame for this on the dialog, because these scenes could've worked if characters were written better; if nomi's mom was written better as opposed to as "literally the worst" it could've made her scenes with nomi less hokey, for instance
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Jun 7, 2015 19:27
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Combat Pretzel posted:I actually don't have a problem with that per-se. I actually come to like Jamie Clayton for instance via this series. Given that the Wachowski's are involved, I expected some story points in that regard, but things like the soaking wet dildo scene (or cheesy sex scenes in general) or the mom with comicbook villain-style ignorance were kind of blunt hits over the head that could have been toned down. A lot. I know a mom with that level of comicbook villain-style ignorance. Mari was a good friend of mine who had the sad misfortune to A) have Helen as her mother, and B) be born in the wrong gender for her mind. She left home at sixteen, scimped and saved and went to all the counseling and was on the waiting list for the surgery and found a wonderful boyfriend and all was happy until she was in a car accident. The state she lived in at the time refused to recognize her gender as female and Dave as her family. Instead insisting that her name was Mark and that Helen was the only person who could hold power of attorney. Helen insisted that Dave had brainwashed her and that she would need to be taken to a 'specialist' in these kinds of mental aberrations (electro convulsive therapy was on the table for example). It took a lawsuit and a fuckton of money to pry Mari free. That level of monomaniacal ignorance is loving real. Helen was not a Jesus freak or uneducated. She just could not comprehend that she had had a daughter in a male body and not a son. She was positive that Mari was damaged and sick and needed to be 'cured'. Helen died a few years ago still cursing my and Dave's names for 'corrupting' her 'son'. I just helped find and pay for the lawyer.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:44
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Toxxupation posted:i would place the blame for this on the dialog, because these scenes could've worked if characters were written better; if nomi's mom was written better as opposed to as "literally the worst" it could've made her scenes with nomi less hokey, for instance I think you mean Michael's mom. 
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Jun 7, 2015 19:46
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To be fair every character's backstory is Tumblr-bait except I thought for the African dude but then the thread explained his mom has AIDS or something thanks again thread.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:50
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Humbug Scoolbus posted:I know a mom with that level of comicbook villain-style ignorance. I do too, i strongly suspect my own stepdad would be that much of an evil dick if i discovered i was trans; it doesn't change the fact that nomi's mom is a really badly written character that feels less like a person in the world nomi inhabits then an obvious analogy to trans struggle
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Jun 7, 2015 19:58
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Something else to consider: How often in mainstream or quasi-mainstream cinema have we had a transgendered filmmaker tell a story about a transgendered person with a transgendered actor/actress? I can't think of many off the top of my head. WHICH ISN'T TO SAY CERTAIN CRITICISMS ARE WRONG. If your complaint is that The Wachowskis bring nothing to the table for Nomi's story that certain card-carrying members of the Hollywood Patriarchy already have, it's valid (although I respectfully disagree). I just think the perspective here is useful.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:12
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dik-dik posted:It was a joke. Holocaust memorial. In no way was this supposed to be funny, it was played completely straight. Thats the problem with these topics are that they are played straight. All the meta bullshit "issues" are pounded into you with a sledge hammer and comes off as pretentious and whiny. Every time something like that came up it fucks over the story. Dallas buyers club is played straight but because it dosent have this inferiority complex bullshit it has characters that by the end of the movie you really care about. You see what a hosed situation rayon is in and cant help to feel for him. Nomi not so much. Tonight ill gently caress and sweet wisper "pride" and fistbump, see how well that goes over. Crash74 fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Jun 7, 2015 |
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Jun 7, 2015 20:14
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Toxxupation posted:it doesn't change the fact that nomi's mom is a really badly written character that feels less like a person in the world nomi inhabits then an obvious analogy to trans struggle That's probably why she's only in the show for two scenes: because Nomi and Amarita aren't married (possibly because this was conceived while Prop 8 and DOMA were still in flux, but even if my timetable's off (I'm sure it is) they don't seem to be into domestication like, say, Lito and Hernando), the story required a family member to get the hospital to commit her. And the only way she'd ever do that is if she was, in the parlance, 100% a dick. You want all your characters to be as fleshed out as possible, but sometimes form has to follow function.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:21
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Rocksicles posted:I do have one issue with the show thinking back, i'd forgotten about that appalling contemporary theater piece. Subject matter aside contemporary dance or theater is the pits, i loving hate it. It's pretentious bollocks that makes me want to punch things . That's as far as I got in ep1, I was fine with the sex and the fairies and the characters assembled by way of a contemporary issues dartboard and even managed to make it past the laughable "i'm crying cause noone's ever defended me!", but when it got to the dance routine I was "oh gently caress this poo poo".
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Jun 7, 2015 21:02
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The main issues I have with Nomi's arc so far (I've watched eight eps) is that she feels the most segregated from the rest of the cluster and her segments (outside of the first ep or two) feel the most devoid of local color, like she could be living in Any Major City in the US (though I think, in fairness, Wolfgang suffers from this, too). And it stands out especially against Will, whose storyline could similarly take place in Any Major City with the struggle against bureaucracy and racial tensions and such, but they make a point of detailing Chicago itself in his scenes -- the Cubs paraphernalia everywhere, his apartment situated right next to the L, etc. Being all put-off that a couple characters said "happy pride" after hella banging, though, is about the dumbest opinion on this show I've read.
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Jun 7, 2015 21:08
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xeria posted:Being all put-off that a couple characters said "happy pride" after hella banging, though, is about the dumbest opinion on this show I've read. woa, no u. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 7, 2015 21:15
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Why isn't the title of this thread "VAN drat"?
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Jun 7, 2015 21:17
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xeria posted:(though I think, in fairness, Wolfgang suffers from this, too) I think they represent Berlin pretty well, personally. There's the Holocaust memorial, in episode 10 there's a scene right by those giant men statues in the river and the mix of expensive modern buildings with run-down abandoned buildings is very true to the city.
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Jun 7, 2015 21:20
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Yeah man more subtlety! Everybody should just dance around all topics and talk to each like they are spies in 60's Berlin or like Littlefinger and Varys or something, that's the authentic life I know about.
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Jun 7, 2015 21:34
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Rarity posted:I think they represent Berlin pretty well, personally. There's the Holocaust memorial, in episode 10 there's a scene right by those giant men statues in the river and the mix of expensive modern buildings with run-down abandoned buildings is very true to the city. That's fair, obviously I don't know Berlin all that well to speak otherwise; it just felt, on purely surface-level gut reaction (of what I've watched so far), that Wolfgang's 'Berlin-ness' didn't stand out as much as other characters' locales.
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Jun 7, 2015 22:03
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xeria posted:That's fair, obviously I don't know Berlin all that well to speak otherwise; it just felt, on purely surface-level gut reaction (of what I've watched so far), that Wolfgang's 'Berlin-ness' didn't stand out as much as other characters' locales. I think it's probably because Berlin is a Western city so it's not going to immediately stand out to us the way that somewhere like Mumbai or Nairobi is. There's just not enough of a culture difference.
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Jun 7, 2015 22:22
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xeria posted:That's fair, obviously I don't know Berlin all that well to speak otherwise; it just felt, on purely surface-level gut reaction (of what I've watched so far), that Wolfgang's 'Berlin-ness' didn't stand out as much as other characters' locales. I found Wolfgang and his brother very German but at first I thought they were in the UK. Their location wasn't as big a deal as some of the others, it's true. Then again, a lot of people seem to have missed that Nomi was in SF, whereas I instantly recognized the city from living there. And I've never actually been to Berlin except when I passed through it on a train, so.
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Jun 7, 2015 22:26
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precision posted:I found Wolfgang and his brother very German but at first I thought they were in the UK. Their location wasn't as big a deal as some of the others, it's true. I've never been to San Fransisco in my life and I easily understood where she was.
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Jun 7, 2015 22:28
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xeria posted:That's fair, obviously I don't know Berlin all that well to speak otherwise; it just felt, on purely surface-level gut reaction (of what I've watched so far), that Wolfgang's 'Berlin-ness' didn't stand out as much as other characters' locales. This actually might be a good time to point out -- again, not to negate anything you're saying -- that the directing credits seem to be arbitrary and directing duties were split by location, much like Cloud Atlas. So the Wachowskis did all the scenes set in Chicago, San Francisco, and London, while Tom Tykwer did Berlin and Nairobi. James McTeigue handled Mexico City and Mumbai, and Dan Glass -- who's been The Wachowskis VFX supervisor since The Matrix -- covered Seoul.
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Jun 7, 2015 22:29
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DivisionPost posted:Tom Tykwer did Berlin and Nairobi. I personally thought the Nairobi scenes were the best-directed. Helps that I found his story to be the most engaging too. Again, VAN drat. 
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Jun 7, 2015 22:31
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precision posted:I found Wolfgang and his brother very German
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Jun 7, 2015 22:37
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Combat Pretzel posted:They're actual Germans. All relevant actors for the bits in Germany were Germans. It's kind of curious tho, that they went out of their ways to ensure all that, and have them speak English all the time (save the nightclub toilet bit). Usually it's US actors speaking bad foreign languages or jibberish and they put subtitles under it. Yeah it seems like they went to the trouble of casting actors from the places their characters are from for the most part, so why not have them speak the actual languages and subtitle it? I guess the only problem with that would be to have Tuppence Middleton try to speak Icelandic.
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Jun 7, 2015 22:42
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While I wouldn't have minded having each relevant section in it's regional language, you'd be looking at subtitles for half the show in that case, if not more, since there'd need to be subtitles for Korean, Swahili, German, Hindi, Spanish and possibly some Icelandic Gaelic which would I imagine be off-putting to a lot of their potential audience. Riley, Nomi and Will take up the majority of screentime and all speak English, at least the majority of the time in Riley's case, but there's still a lot of focus on the other cast members in any given episode.
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Jun 7, 2015 22:44
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