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not 30 years ago expressing one's homosexuality was likely to get one fired, kicked out of their home, and had a high chance of getting the expresser attacked. Today things are better, but you still get gay bashing in a lot of places in North America. But yes, it's today's more vocal calling out of bigots and symbols of treason and slavery glorification that are the real oppression. Get hosed, you disingenuous poo poo head. The idea that society is somehow going to far with calling out racism and bigotry is bullshit. we don't lynch people for being racist. Racists did lynch people for being black.
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Jun 25, 2015 21:05
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blarzgh posted:John Hancock, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington and Benjamin Franklin all owned slaves - should we tear down their monuments, too? One of these is not like the others (except in the case of privately-owned monuments).
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Jun 26, 2015 00:12
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Savant Lard posted:One of these is not like the others (except in the case of privately-owned monuments).
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Jun 26, 2015 00:17
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tsa posted:Uh maybe in the 80's but we have the internet these days. Why would any person be less certain of their views? You can find an echo-chamber for basically any position imaginable. Also you act like code-words don't exist, people in the north hardly need the confederate flag to be racist. We aren't on the internet all day, are we? (are we?  ) You don't think forcing the right to shift to code words was a step forward? It can strengthen the hard-core, but it isn't going to bring in anyone uninitiated. A kid can figure out that it's okay to say the n-word because dad says it, but they aren't going to understand coded language about economics. If there are no confederate flags on the trucks in the parking lot, someone might be less confident that they can even use coded language at work. I wasn't talking about racists not being able to find each other when they go looking. There's no stopping that. I was talking about not seeing confirmation that it's okay to espouse racism in everyday life. Every symbol of belonging to the segments of society that are okay with that which gets marginalized or eliminated weakens those segments ability to spread their memes.
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Jun 26, 2015 01:04
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Maybe we should make a statue of Nat Turner and have him carry a confederate flag? Compromise solution!
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Jun 26, 2015 01:23
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Jack2142 posted:Maybe we should make a statue of Nat Turner and have him carry a confederate flag? Counterproposal: Nat Turner and Stonewall Jackson sharing a manly, half-naked embrace. Turner is on top. Alternative: Giant Mural: Botticelli's Mars and Venus. Two versions, adjacent. In one, Denmark Vesey is Venus, and Robert E. Lee is Mars. In the other, Frederick Douglass is Mars, and Jefferson Davis is Venus. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Jun 26, 2015 |
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Jun 26, 2015 03:26
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Counterproposal: Nat Turner and Stonewall Jackson sharing a manly, half-naked embrace. Turner is on top.
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Jun 26, 2015 03:43
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Serious question, not trying to make a loaded argument, I don't know very much about this stuff. This thread except for maybe that one guy seems to think the confederacy was 100% bad and about slaves, and that anyone who thinks otherwise is deceived or lying. Does this apply to everyone who willingly fought for the confederacy? There's a whole lot of asking stuff like "well what ELSE was the confederacy about?" which all feel like a loaded argument where any suggestion that any part of it was anything else is going to get buried in "evidence", like the words of a confederate vice president or whatever it was that's already been used. I don't have any evidence, but it seems unlikely to me that the "men on the ground" were all fighting for the cause of the vice president - seems more likely a decent portion of them would be fighting out of brand loyalty, or to protect their friends who are fighting, or for a paycheck, or because they were conscripted and would be vilified and arrested if they stopped, or because troops from the other side were in their home town and acting like jerks, or any of a host of other reasons along those lines. So is the question "what ELSE was the confederacy about?" meant to just refer to the views of the leadership, or do people genuinely think that everyone who fought on that side was all about the racism? It seems feasible to me that someone, somewhere, might have a confederate flag because one of their ancestors was a totally honorable dude who fought impressively on that side to defend his home town and had no real opinions about race. That hypothetical person would be pretty justifiably sad to have their flag declared unquestionably racist. (This is not an argument for the flag being okay, I totally get that audience interpretation is important and as such flying the flag in any kind of public space is unquestionably insensitive at best - I just find the "no shades of grey" view expressed here a bit disturbing.)
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Jun 26, 2015 06:40
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Just asking questions here, people!
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Jun 26, 2015 08:52
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roomforthetuna posted:Serious question, not trying to make a loaded argument, I don't know very much about this stuff. This thread except for maybe that one guy seems to think the confederacy was 100% bad and about slaves, and that anyone who thinks otherwise is deceived or lying. Does this apply to everyone who willingly fought for the confederacy? There's a whole lot of asking stuff like "well what ELSE was the confederacy about?" which all feel like a loaded argument where any suggestion that any part of it was anything else is going to get buried in "evidence", like the words of a confederate vice president or whatever it was that's already been used. Possibly, I know there's lots of people whose grandfathers were conscripted into the wehrmacht during the second world war who feel the best way to honour them is to hang big swastikas out of their bedroom window.
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Jun 26, 2015 09:13
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roomforthetuna posted:It seems feasible to me that someone, somewhere, might have a confederate flag because one of their ancestors was a totally honorable dude who fought impressively on that side to defend his home town and had no real opinions about race. That hypothetical person would be pretty justifiably sad to have their flag declared unquestionably racist. Did this hypothetical non-racist ancestor want his home town to be part of the USA or the CSA? Did you know that every slave State except South Carolina had regiments serving in the Union army? How many Americans did this guy kill on the way to becoming a confederate war hero? OwlFancier posted:Possibly, I know there's lots of people whose grandfathers were conscripted into the wehrmacht during the second world war who feel the best way to honour them is to hang big swastikas out of their bedroom window. roomforthetuna posted:I don't have any evidence, but There's your problem. Serious question, not trying to make a loaded argument, I don't know very much about this stuff. Would a black family looking to move to a new town feel safer or less safe if there were symbols celebrating their subjugation everywhere they looked, including Government buildings? Strawman fucked around with this message at 09:37 on Jun 26, 2015 |
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Jun 26, 2015 09:20
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blarzgh posted:Che Guevara wrote disparagingly about the inferiority of the black race when he was young - should we burn his shirts?
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Jun 26, 2015 10:52
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Counterproposal: Nat Turner and Stonewall Jackson sharing a manly, half-naked embrace. Turner is on top. Counter-counterproposal: Replace all statues of Confederate warcriminals with statues of Sherman standing on said warcriminals.
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Jun 26, 2015 11:04
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roomforthetuna posted:Serious question, not trying to make a loaded argument, I don't know very much about this stuff. This thread except for maybe that one guy seems to think the confederacy was 100% bad and about slaves, and that anyone who thinks otherwise is deceived or lying. Does this apply to everyone who willingly fought for the confederacy? There's a whole lot of asking stuff like "well what ELSE was the confederacy about?" which all feel like a loaded argument where any suggestion that any part of it was anything else is going to get buried in "evidence", like the words of a confederate vice president or whatever it was that's already been used. People are asking what else the Confederacy was about because nobody will even try to give an answer but keeps talking like there is an answer. That's literally it. If only one side presents evidence for their point of view, why should we give the other any credence at all? When in life is that kind of behavior anything but being a douchebag? This is also kind of superbly silly because of course we don't know what was in the unspoken feelings of people we've never met who are long dead, and it's not especially relevant. The meaning of the Confederate flag isn't a mystery because it was a symbol raised by a Confederate government that came right out and told everyone that would listen what it was doing. People keep bringing up the  parallels because they're actually super relevant for once - new government raises a banner, says and does horrible poo poo, and that becomes a symbol for evil even though not literally every German alive was evil.And anyway, what kind of standard for something being bad is that? If not literally EVERYONE involved in something awful is cartoonishly evil it becomes OK? We're talking about something straight-up advertised as, "YOU WANT TO TAKE OUR SLAVES AWAY SO gently caress YOU DAD!" You think everyone in the South was too dumb to know what that meant? e: As a side note, both sides used conscription, but it didn't work well and only provided a small fraction of the total troops involved, so saying "They were drafted and had no choice!" was generally untrue.
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Jun 26, 2015 12:54
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sean10mm posted:If not literally EVERYONE involved in something awful is cartoonishly evil it becomes OK? 
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Jun 26, 2015 13:04
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Strawman posted:Did this hypothetical non-racist ancestor want his home town to be part of the USA or the CSA? Did you know that every slave State except South Carolina had regiments serving in the Union army? How many Americans did this guy kill on the way to becoming a confederate war hero? ... and that man was Nathan Bedford Forrest.
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Jun 26, 2015 13:07
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sean10mm posted:People are asking what else the Confederacy was about because nobody will even try to give an answer but keeps talking like there is an answer. That's literally it. If only one side presents evidence for their point of view, why should we give the other any credence at all? When in life is that kind of behavior anything but being a douchebag? But people do try to give an answer to what else the Confederacy was about - they say "states rights". I realize that's already "proven false", but that proof seems to consist broadly of "here are some quotes clearly showing that the leadership had one primary reason for wanting states rights, and it was about slavery and race"; is there also evidence that that's what they sold to their supporters? By way of analogy, the recent government has sold "the PATRIOT act" to the population as a whole, as a big anti-terrorist thing, because who wouldn't be anti-terrorism, but a future person reflecting on history could easily frame that as "the United States in the early 2000s was in support of government monitoring of its people, allowing torture, and imprisonment without trial, what a bunch of jerks." Is it the case that the confederate army as a whole was broadly sold "fight to keep slavery!" or were they sold, say, "don't let us get pushed around by them yankees!"? Again, to be clear, I fully acknowledge that the underlying cause of the war was bullshit, that the flag was created for bullshit reasons, that most people who own such a flag now do so for bullshit reasons, and I'm not asking about the flag here, or trying to suggest that any of those points are wrong. And for Godwin's sake, yes, I do have similar feelings about WW2 German soldiers, I wonder how many of them were sold on "Aryan master race and jews are bad" and how many were sold on much more benign propaganda that a typical American today would also be persuaded by. One might argue that the cause the soldiers fight for doesn't excuse the atrocities committed, and I would agree, but I think we should vilify all soldiers on every side of every war if the atrocities committed by that side are the metric by which all shall by judged.
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Jun 26, 2015 14:19
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You don't need to vilify soldiers to suggest that flying the flag of the thoroughly reprehensible government which they fought for is a stupid idea.
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Jun 26, 2015 14:21
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roomforthetuna posted:Thanks for being the one guy who didn't just act like I'm saying something horrific and evil that I wasn't saying at all, and giving at least a bit of a serious answer. Actually man, the "States Rights" argument is proven false by the Confederate Constitution, which forbids the abolition of slavery in any state, ever. Including future territories.
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Jun 26, 2015 14:27
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Man what lengths will we go to to fight "racism"? When "racism" is eradicated, what then? Will we turn our opprobrium towards "homophobia"? What about "inequality"? Where does it end? When can I sit back and not be afraid that a SJW is going to criticize me?
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Jun 26, 2015 14:31
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OwlFancier posted:You don't need to vilify soldiers to suggest that flying the flag of the thoroughly reprehensible government which they fought for is a stupid idea.
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Jun 26, 2015 16:06
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roomforthetuna posted:"the United States in the early 2000s was in support of government monitoring of its people, allowing torture, and imprisonment without trial, what a bunch of jerks." This was as true then as it is today as long as you add the assumption that these powers are going to be used against Muslims. roomforthetuna posted:Is it the case that the confederate army as a whole was broadly sold "fight to keep slavery!" or were they sold, say, "don't let us get pushed around by them yankees!"? Those were the same thing, what other elements of "Southern Culture" were under threat? roomforthetuna posted:Again, to be clear, I fully acknowledge that the underlying cause of the war was bullshit, that the flag was created for bullshit reasons, that most people who own such a flag now do so for bullshit reasons, and I'm not asking about the flag here Then why are you posting itt?
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Jun 26, 2015 16:29
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To think that 15 yrs ago this place (and probably the whole internet) was overrun with script kiddie libertarians who really believed confederate flags were just about state's rights and and protesting the "tyranny of Lincoln" (they really hated Abe)... I'm Guessing most of them never met a black person and we're just ratiinalizing stuff they heard from their racist granddad. All in all I'd say the Internet has changed for the better.
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Jun 26, 2015 16:29
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roomforthetuna posted:Thanks for being the one guy who didn't just act like I'm saying something horrific and evil that I wasn't saying at all, and giving at least a bit of a serious answer. The whole States Rights poo poo was promoted after the fact and was helped along by the Confederate Daughters of America. But in terms of slavery before the war, it was promoted through religiously, politically, and socially to the point where many people weren't just ignorant about the true purpose of the Confederacy. I mean just take a look at what happened when the North pulled troops out of the South after Reconstruction. It's not like those same people just went away. No, they were the ones who promoted the black codes and joined the KKK.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:17
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roomforthetuna posted:Again, to be clear, I fully acknowledge that the underlying cause of the war was bullshit, that the flag was created for bullshit reasons, that most people who own such a flag now do so for bullshit reasons, and I'm not asking about the flag here, or trying to suggest that any of those points are wrong. And for Godwin's sake, yes, I do have similar feelings about WW2 German soldiers, I wonder how many of them were sold on "Aryan master race and jews are bad" and how many were sold on much more benign propaganda that a typical American today would also be persuaded by. One might argue that the cause the soldiers fight for doesn't excuse the atrocities committed, and I would agree, but I think we should vilify all soldiers on every side of every war if the atrocities committed by that side are the metric by which all shall by judged. we don't have to get into the personal motivations of soldiers because if we do, 99% of everyone's great great grandpappies were totes not-racist who were just fighting out of a hometown pride, honest if the only way for you to honor your family is to drape them in the flag of an explicitly racist slave rebellion, then, uh, you probably shouldn't honor your family lest everyone else assume you believe that black people are fundamentally inferior to white people like i don't honor my train-robbing grandpa by screaming gently caress the police at police. that doesn't fly
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Jun 26, 2015 17:44
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yronic heroism posted:To think that 15 yrs ago this place (and probably the whole internet) was overrun with script kiddie libertarians who really believed confederate flags were just about state's rights and and protesting the "tyranny of Lincoln" (they really hated Abe)... I'm Guessing most of them never met a black person and we're just ratiinalizing stuff they heard from their racist granddad. Knight fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Jun 26, 2015 |
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Jun 26, 2015 18:18
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I think that individuals who still fly the flag in the South are composed of 50% genuine racists with the remaining 50% consisting of people who drank the "heritage not hate" koolaid, people who want to give a big FU to people against the flag and the South in general, various trolls, and one confused Ukranian.
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Jun 26, 2015 19:35
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You know, the Nazis had a really good anti-smoking program. Is it really fair to judge them on that other stuff they did?
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Jun 26, 2015 19:44
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Spun Dog posted:You know, the Nazis had a really good anti-smoking program. Is it really fair to judge them on that other stuff they did? I hear Mengele found alternative ways there though. 
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Jun 26, 2015 19:48
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Jun 26, 2015 20:02
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I think this thread, as all SA ACW discussions night unto the beginning, really really underestimates how ignorant many southerners are about the issue, and racism in general. (Racist northerners are too, usually, but in diferent ways.) A whole lot of people associate that flag with the south and barely make the civil war-slavery connection. They associate it with Lynyrd Skynyrd and Dukes of Hazzard and poo poo. Southerners aren't suffering from mass stupidity but they are generally uneducated and underprivileged. I don't know what the best way is to correct the issue but treating pro-confederate flag people as universally racist usually just doubles them down on loving the flag, because they genuinely don't know just how offensive it can be and, indeed, see it as a symbol of rebellion, independence, and pride. They expect dang yankees and arrogant hollywood types to be against it. They genuinely believe racism is wrong, believe they're "colourblind", and 100% drink the codeword kool-aid and so they're inured against people saying "hey that's racist." Yet often they are racist. It's that insidious, ingrown, backwoods sort of unconscious bias that's so hard to really stamp out because being too aggressive just drives the targets further into the racist codeword rabbit hole. It's a poo poo situation and probably we have no hope but for the hate to slowly die out.
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Jun 26, 2015 21:16
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Jun 26, 2015 23:04
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So what about this new thing where Apple kicked civil war themed games off the app store because they feature the confederate flag? My vote's for re-releasing all games and movies that feature the confederate flag in any way, but with a lobster flag superimposed over the original flag to avoid offense, so that in fifty years time when the majority has come to believe that the lobster flag is the flag of the Confederacy, the lobster flag can get banned too for being offensive, and get replaced with a smiling poop flag, etc.
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Jun 27, 2015 01:35
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They pulled stuff with the battle flag and are going back and re-instating the apps that don't use it in an offensive manner. Apple seems to always do this heavy handed removal and reinstatement process when something comes up.
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Jun 27, 2015 01:49
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roomforthetuna posted:Thanks for being the one guy who didn't just act like I'm saying something horrific and evil that I wasn't saying at all, and giving at least a bit of a serious answer. Yes, the ordinary soldiers understood slavery and white supremacy to be a crucial part of the Confederate war effort. Confederate officials and leaders explicitly sold the war using white supremacist language, antebellum Southern society was held together through white supremacy, and these sentiments were absolutely reflected among the ordinary soldiers. James McPherson's For Cause and Comrades, for example, finds plenty of examples of Confederate soldiers melding generic patriotism and "Southern cause" rhetoric with white supremacist rhetoric in diary entries and letters home. Plenty of scholars of slavery and the antebellum South have found tons of evidence of yeoman farmers eagerly taking part in slavery and lower class whites aspiring to one day own slaves and become part of the ruling slavocracy. This idea that Confederate soldiers are insulated from the larger war aims of the Confederate government is absolutely a Lost Cause myth. I know others have already asked this, but what Southern ideals were there without slavery? What was the sectional tension and divide being fought over without slavery?
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Jun 27, 2015 02:53
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roomforthetuna posted:So what about this new thing where Apple kicked civil war themed games off the app store because they feature the confederate flag?
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Jun 27, 2015 03:14
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New idea have a video montage of people taking down the confederate flag and burning it to the song landslide while racists cry in the background.
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Jun 27, 2015 06:35
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What about the thousands of white Southerners too poor to buy their way out of the first American draft, so presumably they were too poor to own slaves too and probably couldn't even find work because of the feudal slave economy, who were thusly maimed and killed by fellow Americans who actually invaded the South? Many Civil War fighters were draftees or simply volunteered based on a sense of duty to their State, a foreign concept to modern Americans but a very real one since the colonies. Both sides suffered horrendous casualties, led by retarded generals, over a war started by selfish, heartless Southern aristocrats. Germany doesn't celebrate Nazis, but they acknowledge millions of young kids were sent to die for horrible reasons that destroyed and divided their entire nation for generations. I think we should talk about and remember the history that the North and South shared and suffered through together, instead of solely feeling shame for a past we inherited as no fault of our own. Replace the CSA flag somewhere with a plaque of the Gettysburg Address please, a much more appropriate piece of history that speaks to both sides, and to all colors. Smoothrich fucked around with this message at 07:22 on Jun 27, 2015 |
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Jun 27, 2015 07:14
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Removal or banning of any flag is retarded. Any given flag is symbolic of many things to many different people, including heinous acts as well as culture. You might as well ban the US flag, or British flag etc. on the same grounds if you think this is a good idea. But after all censorship is one of the cornerstones of modern leftism's fascistic method so you probably do.
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Jun 27, 2015 13:41
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Bitter Mushroom posted:Removal or banning of any flag is retarded. Any given flag is symbolic of many things to many different people, including heinous acts as well as culture. You might as well ban the US flag, or British flag etc. on the same grounds if you think this is a good idea. But after all censorship is one of the cornerstones of modern leftism's fascistic method so you probably do. I haven't seen any calls for the banning of the flag. It stands to reason that the United States government itself would disallow the use of a traitorous flag in official capacities like on license plates etc. That isn't fascism.
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Jun 27, 2015 13:59
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