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Talmonis posted:You're putting the horse before the cart. It's the home values declining due solely to black families moving in that drove school funding downward. Thus causing schools to become poo poo. Oh yeah, I didnt explain that very well at all. Just shifting funds between districts doesnt work because the whites will abandon black districts, move to the best schools available and price black families out of entering. If somehow black families do start moving into the 'good' district again white families will just flee again, and they tend to have greater economic mobility so blacks will never catch up. It is all about the school system though. Whites move into 'good' districts and flee 'bad' ones. Blacks get left behind and concentrated into ever shittier areas. Check out Tiebout sorting. I'd gladly advocate for some kind of busing program like during Desegregation to force racial homogeneity across cities so there was no where to flee, no way to set up enclaves short of leaving town altogether. And then you have a black ecosystem you can directly target with federal dollars with less worry about uneven enforcement. Well, except for all the non-racial reasons there are to misappropriate funds, but you can't solve human nature all at once.
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Jan 20, 2016 21:17
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Better to focus on fixing and improving our still incredibly racist and unequal society than to try and implement arbitrarily assigned "oops we're sorry!" paychecks, that will ultimately only divide us further along racial lines.
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Jan 20, 2016 21:19
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Berke Negri posted:What about black Americans, many of which are still alive, who were denied home ownership just because of the color of their skin Refusing to sell something to a person is drastically different than forcing them into slavery. I think that some sort of civil suit is the best course of action in that case. I recognize that such would be hard to prove, though.
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Jan 20, 2016 21:30
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Sulphuric rear end in a top hat posted:Refusing to sell something to a person is drastically different than forcing them into slavery. I think it's possible to acknowledge real and direct racial discrimination in home lending without resorting to "but at least they were never enslaved". I feel like comparing 20th and 21st century repression to 19th century repression is just a way to dodge talking about how more recent forms of oppression are also bad.
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Jan 20, 2016 21:32
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Applying statistics to individuals is incorrect, which is why academia is running away from ideas like white privilege because playing oppression Olympics is dumb and counter-productive What does white privilege mean for a homeless white Vietnam vet compared to a black child of a 1 % family? Addressing the issues of black poverty might require different approaches than white poverty but to tell a poor white immigrant family they are less deserving of help because of the colour of their skin is racist and soulless. For example, it is well known that darker skinned black people do worse than light skinned black people. Should reparations be scaled by skin color? Why not? As other posters have pointed out even if it was a good idea working out a fair payment schedule would be an utter nightmare.
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Jan 20, 2016 21:54
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This poo poo's easy, folks. Okay, first: reduce military expenditure by like 90%. Second, give all U.S. citizens universal healthcare, a basic income, and drastically reduced college loans. Also invest in public transit and all that stuff. Third, give reparations to black Americans and Native tribes. On top of the stuff that everyone else gets, they also get further reduced college loans, very cheap business loans, and an even bigger basic income check. They also get money from the U.S. government for the use of land and resources. So, like, maybe everyone gets 10K a month, but black Americans and Native peoples get 20K a month, or something. That's just off the top of my head; someone smarter than me should crunch the numbers and figure out something better. But the basic idea is that everyone gets basic poo poo, but black people and Native people get more stuff from the government. This stuff's EASY, guys. We've got the basic idea down, we just need to figure out how to execute it.
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Jan 20, 2016 22:00
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Racial reparations are stupid tumblr poo poo and no politician with half a brain is going to seriously engage on the subject. It's also arguably actually illegal in the US; how are you going to walk into a courtroom and tell a judge "hey this guy who's alive now should be liable because of something his ancestors did 200 years ago that he has nothing to do with"? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 20, 2016 22:08
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Sulphuric rear end in a top hat posted:Refusing to sell something to a person is drastically different than forcing them into slavery. I think that some sort of civil suit is the best course of action in that case. I recognize that such would be hard to prove, though. There was actually a class action civil suit related to this very topic in the late 90's: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigford_v._Glickman
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Jan 20, 2016 22:13
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-Troika- posted:Racial reparations are stupid tumblr poo poo and no politician with half a brain is going to seriously engage on the subject. It's also arguably actually illegal in the US; how are you going to walk into a courtroom and tell a judge "hey this guy who's alive now should be liable because of something his ancestors did 200 years ago that he has nothing to do with"? You know that the debate over reparations has been going long before tumblr existed, right?
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Jan 20, 2016 22:17
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Dr. Tough posted:There was actually a class action civil suit related to this very topic in the late 90's: Would those individuals qualify for your reparations idea?
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Jan 20, 2016 22:18
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Berke Negri posted:You know that the debate over reparations has been going long before tumblr existed, right? I think we can retroactively refer to lots of social justice movements like women's suffrage or state welfare as stupid tumblr poo poo, to be honest. As society progresses so too must our language.
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Jan 20, 2016 22:20
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-Troika- posted:Racial reparations are stupid tumblr poo poo and no politician with half a brain is going to seriously engage on the subject. It's also arguably actually illegal in the US; how are you going to walk into a courtroom and tell a judge "hey this guy who's alive now should be liable because of something his ancestors did 200 years ago that he has nothing to do with"?
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Jan 20, 2016 22:21
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Berke Negri posted:You know that the debate over reparations has been going long before tumblr existed, right? The horse existed long before saddles my friend
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Jan 20, 2016 22:24
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walgreenslatino posted:... Badger of Basra posted:How is advocating for reparations racism? Badger of Basra posted:Black people probably do deserve compensation for things that were done to black people more than white people need compensation for those things. which isn't necessarily a bad thing, ofc doverhog posted:Counting who is owed something, or what is just, or legal, is missing the point entirely. All of society must be reformed to eliminate poverty and inequality for all people, regardless of their birth. -Troika- posted:Racial reparations are stupid tumblr poo poo and no politician with half a brain is going to seriously engage on the subject. It's also arguably actually illegal in the US; how are you going to walk into a courtroom and tell a judge "hey this guy who's alive now should be liable because of something his ancestors did 200 years ago that he has nothing to do with"?
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Jan 20, 2016 22:30
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stephenfry posted:it would be policy that distinguishes by race, which is the definition of racist Racism requires a belief that races can be superior or inferior. Acknowledging past racism and seeking to correct it along racial lines is not a contiunation of racism, no more than fighting a fire shows an anti-fire bias.
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Jan 20, 2016 22:33
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How is it a strawman? Good loving luck selling the general public on the idea of voluntarily giving up a bunch of their cash for arbitrary reasons to arbitrary people. It would require court action.
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Jan 20, 2016 22:35
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-Troika- posted:How is it a strawman? Good loving luck selling the general public on the idea of voluntarily giving up a bunch of their cash for arbitrary reasons to arbitrary people. It would require court action. Could you share your internal, undefined idea of reparations with the rest of the thread because arguing against a concept that so far only exists in your head is going to be pretty difficult.
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Jan 20, 2016 22:37
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-Troika- posted:[in the ron paul voice] How is it a strawman? Good loving luck selling the general public on the idea of voluntarily giving up a bunch of their cash for arbitrary reasons to arbitrary people. It would require court action.
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Jan 20, 2016 22:38
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Popular Thug Drink posted:Racism requires a belief that races can be superior or inferior. Acknowledging past racism and seeking to correct it along racial lines is not a contiunation of racism, no more than fighting a fire shows an anti-fire bias. in any case, it is no criticism to say TNC is being race conscious and that discussing reparations requires some thick-skinned race consciousness. -Troika- posted:How is it a strawman? Good loving luck selling the general public on the idea of voluntarily giving up a bunch of their cash for arbitrary reasons to arbitrary people. It would require court action.
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Jan 20, 2016 22:39
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In fairness the first thing most people think of when they hear the term 'reparations' is direct cash payments. Its going to take a lot to overcome that association
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Jan 20, 2016 22:41
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stephenfry posted:maybe I'm getting mixed up with racialism, I'm used to a very minimal definition for "racism" -- I mean, policies that aren't intended as racist can still be functionally racist, right? Like having police patrols scale to reported crime levels without regards to proportion inadvertently meaning there are always two cruisers on the most african-american street in baltimore, which is functionally racist Racialism is the idea that races exist. Racism is the idea that races exist, and that some are better or worse than others. I dont think either belief is necessary to acknowledge that past racism has effects that carry through to the present day and that using those same definitions in some loose way to repair the damage is not a moral harm. Tigey posted:In fairness the first thing most people think of when they hear the term 'reparations' is direct cash payments. Its going to take a lot to overcome that association This is in itself telling if the first assumption, lacking any other knowledge, is that reparations means directly taking money from white people and giving it to black people.
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Jan 20, 2016 22:42
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^ that's what "reparations" meant for germans after WW1 and TNC is smart enough to know that. Same image problem as the term "privilege". I like that legislators have used "offsetting" and other euphemisms. Popular Thug Drink posted:Racialism is the idea that races exist. Racism is the idea that races exist, and that some are better or worse than others. I dont think either belief is necessary to acknowledge that past racism has effects that carry through to the present day and that using those same definitions in some loose way to repair the damage is not a moral harm. What's the word for something that discriminates by race then? Just race discrimination? e: v Kingfish, I disagree with PTD and prefer your definition too, but PTD's is a usage that has currency. stephenfry fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Jan 20, 2016 |
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Jan 20, 2016 22:43
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Popular Thug Drink posted:
It absolutely does not. Racism can function on a systemic level without belief in racial superiority. E: That usage has currency, but PTD knows full well that he is wrong in this case and I'm confused as to why he is feigning ignorance. The Kingfish fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Jan 20, 2016 |
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Jan 20, 2016 22:45
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The Kingfish posted:It absolutely does not. Racism can function on a systemic level without belief in racial superiority. http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/racism stephenfry posted:What's the word for something that discriminates by race then? Just race discrimination? Yeah, usually with some term mixing that tries to imply discrimination is bad in all cases even when it's attempting to correct an existing imbalance, as in the case of colorblindism.
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Jan 20, 2016 22:49
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umm?
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Jan 20, 2016 22:50
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Popular Thug Drink posted:http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/racism yeah I can find online dictionaries that favor my defn, like wiktionary. let's try to move on. whether or not TNC or his ideas are ~insert term here~ isn't important, we are discussing details
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Jan 20, 2016 22:53
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stephenfry posted:yeah I can find online dictionaries that favor my defn, like wiktionary. let's try to move on. whether or not TNC or his ideas are ~insert term here~ isn't important, we are discussing details In my experience, trying to equate positive economic discrimination on racial terms as being equally morally bad as negative economic discrimination on racial terms is just a thing people do to shut down discussion on how it might be a good thing for society to positively economically discriminate for certain racial groups with measurable economic disadvantages.
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Jan 20, 2016 22:59
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Popular Thug Drink posted:In my experience, trying to equate positive economic discrimination on racial terms as being equally morally bad as negative economic discrimination on racial terms is just a thing people do to shut down discussion on how it might be a good thing for society to positively economically discriminate for certain racial groups with measurable economic disadvantages. e: or both?
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Jan 20, 2016 23:04
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Popular Thug Drink posted:In my experience, trying to equate positive economic discrimination on racial terms as being equally morally bad as negative economic discrimination on racial terms is just a thing people do to shut down discussion on how it might be a good thing for society to positively economically discriminate for certain racial groups with measurable economic disadvantages. I think paraphrasing forums user blue squares and whoever they were paraphrasing when I say that an accusation of racism or making racist speech is not the end of a discussion, only the start of one. And as I have been very clear, while I think TNC is making speech that discriminates by race, he is doing so for an excellent reason.
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Jan 20, 2016 23:06
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The Kingfish posted:How do you define these terms? Was the New Deal positive economic discrimination for whites or negative economic discrimination against blacks? Given that blacks were actively excluded from many portions of the New Deal, we can say that this was negative discrimination against blacks without being positive discrimination for whites, because open-ended programs are not a zero sum game. Likewise, reparations for blacks would not necessarily come at the expense of whites.
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Jan 20, 2016 23:07
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stephenfry posted:I can see how that would be a disingenuous strategy. I don't think anyone in this thread has done that though. At least two people did. Sulphuric rear end in a top hat posted:Instead of being a politically correct racist like Coates is, you could just simply help those in need without the necessity to perpetuate racial discrimination. Benevolent racism is still racism. Fojar38 posted:"Racial reparations" implies that some races deserve/need a thing more than other races do. That is, in fact, racist.
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Jan 20, 2016 23:07
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stephenfry posted:I can see how that would be a disingenuous strategy. I don't think anyone in this thread has done that though. That's exactly what this guy was doing: Sulphuric rear end in a top hat posted:Instead of being a politically correct racist like Coates is, you could just simply help those in need without the necessity to perpetuate racial discrimination. Benevolent racism is still racism. And I don't care that some dumb goon was making stupid posts, but this is an insanely common argument among bargain basement racists who want to mask their racism as some kind of social good concern trolling. boner confessor fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Jan 20, 2016 |
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Jan 20, 2016 23:09
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Badger of Basra posted:At least two people did. I agree that sulphur probably was, but Fojar was defending sulphur's comments from you based on the minimal definition of "racism" I described earlier. This word need have no power over you in my thread *waves hand* A positive reading of sulphur could be that welfare programs could be constructed to quietly exercise affirmative action. They wouldn't be perpetuating race divisions, then, at least not publicly. Just a black-box spitting out food stamp numbers, student quotas perhaps. I don't like that solution and see a huge number of problems with not addressing the racist (by any definition) cultural zeitgeist, but hey they're free to try to defend it. e: and if they want to dispute their current status as bargain basement racist uuhhh maybe they should keep that to a single post stephenfry fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Jan 20, 2016 |
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Jan 20, 2016 23:10
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Honestly, if, in some stroke of insane luck we did implement reparations here, we also should probably work with the rest of the Western hemisphere and most of Europe (the UK, Canada, France, the Netherlands, Germany, Portugal, even Brazil, Cuba, Mexico and the Dominican Republic) at providing reparations to most of West Africa, since the loss of life, labor, human capital and cultural unrest the Atlantic Slave Trade caused is one of several large reasons why a lot of West African nations have current economic issues. It really kicked the ladder out from under a good chunk of what would become Nigeria, Benin, Togo, Ghana, Angola, Cameroon, Senegal, Equatorial Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Guinea, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Mauritania, Mali, Côte d’Ivoire, Burkina Faso and even Chad and Niger. That way we can really get down to fixing the injustices of the slave trade.
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Jan 20, 2016 23:15
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stephenfry posted:A positive reading of sulphur could be that welfare programs could be constructed to quietly exercise affirmative action. They wouldn't be perpetuating race divisions, then, at least not publicly. Just a black-box spitting out food stamp numbers, student quotas perhaps. This sidesteps the entire question of reparations. Reparations at its most basic is the question "should we do something to repay black americans in some way for a long and noticable period of economic exploitation" and a statement like "good racism is still racism" is the same as saying "no, just generally increasing social welfare spending for everyone is good enough." Like, the average net worth of a black american is nada compared to the average net worth of a white american, partly because for many years black americans were simply excluded from homeownership in neighborhoods where home value appreciates. Homes are a large store of wealth for middle class america, you can borrow against your house, you are sheltered from many economic hardships, etc. So the question is 'do we want to try to address this gap quickly through muscular spending, or over decades with less targeted spending'. boner confessor fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Jan 20, 2016 |
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Jan 20, 2016 23:18
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The relative magnitude of two moral wrongs doesn't suddenly make one of them right.
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Jan 20, 2016 23:21
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Sulphuric rear end in a top hat posted:The relative magnitude of two moral wrongs doesn't suddenly make one of them right. I don't see how trying to fix a past wrong is itself wrong. Do you think that white people will be harmed if there are extra programs available for black people?
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Jan 20, 2016 23:22
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Popular Thug Drink posted:This sidesteps the entire question of reparations. Reparations at its most basic is the question "should we do something to repay black americans in some way for a long and noticable period of economic exploitation" and a statement like "good racism is still racism" is the same asvsaying "no, just generally increasing social welfare spending for everyone is good enough." ...oh. Sulphuric rear end in a top hat posted:The relative magnitude of two moral wrongs doesn't suddenly make one of them right. The ethical framework this post implies you have is a little bit too inflexible for reparations or even discussing them generally, I fear.
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Jan 20, 2016 23:23
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KiteAuraan posted:Honestly, if, in some stroke of insane luck we did implement reparations here, we also should probably work with the rest of the Western hemisphere and most of Europe (the UK, Canada, France, the Netherlands, Germany, Portugal, even Brazil, Cuba, Mexico and the Dominican Republic) at providing reparations to most of West Africa, since the loss of life, labor, human capital and cultural unrest the Atlantic Slave Trade caused is one of several large reasons why a lot of West African nations have current economic issues. It really kicked the ladder out from under a good chunk of what would become Nigeria, Benin, Togo, Ghana, Angola, Cameroon, Senegal, Equatorial Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Guinea, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Mauritania, Mali, Côte d’Ivoire, Burkina Faso and even Chad and Niger. That way we can really get down to fixing the injustices of the slave trade. I don't want to peg transferable citizenship and the developing world catching up as a prerequisite for reparations properly done but it would make them easier.
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Jan 20, 2016 23:27
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OP, do you not find racism to be intrinsically bad?
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Jan 20, 2016 23:27
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