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Darth Walrus posted:Given that she specifically doesn’t name names, what clues in those of us not in the know that she’s talking about Mieville? Google cache version still has his name in. e: 4th of July is the date when America freed itself of association with the toxic British, just as Europe will do next year.
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Jan 1, 2018 19:27
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ThomasPaine posted:I couldn't get through the whole thing because she writes like a continental philosopher but come on now, being a womanising bastard is hardly on a level with being a rapist. That's not legitimising it, but just kind of saying it would be wrong to throw him in with Weinstein et al. Also I bought my gf his book on the russian revolution for her birthday and both of us thought it was super, so please don't make me hate him internet give me this. I mean the difference is apparently one of intent rather than effect, so at best the person being written about is clearly an incredibly destructive person whichever way you slice it.
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Jan 1, 2018 19:28
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Miftan posted:Jesus christ, the only thing I get remembered in this thread for is having food opinions and being foreign. I'm like a poor Poncholo. Now now that's not true at all. I, for one, also can't help picturing you as Tim Farron.
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Jan 1, 2018 19:29
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Not Operator posted:If it cheers you up any, I have you mentally catalogued as an I/P thread poster who isn't weird realpolitik psychopath. Its a very short list. Hahaha man that thread is a dumpster fire. I barely even check it anymore. I appreciate it! Bobstar posted:Now now that's not true at all. mods can I get a name change to Gay Frog Milkman?
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Jan 1, 2018 19:32
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ThomasPaine posted:I couldn't get through the whole thing because she writes like a continental philosopher but come on now, being a womanising bastard is hardly on a level with being a rapist. That's not legitimising it, but just kind of saying it would be wrong to throw him in with Weinstein et al. Also I bought my gf his book on the russian revolution for her birthday and both of us thought it was super, so please don't make me hate him internet give me this. It's probably not very helpful to try and quantify the level of 'badness' between this and what the law defines as sexual assault or rape. It's probably sufficient to say what he's accused of doing hurts people a lot, is clearly morally wrong and displays a breathtaking level of selfishness and misogyny. It certainly comes from the same place as Harvey Weinstein, regardless of your personal view on who is 'worse'. Wolfsbane posted:Google cache version still has his name in. His name is also one of the tags at the bottom of the post.
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Jan 1, 2018 19:32
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Darth Walrus posted:Given that she specifically doesn’t name names, what clues in those of us not in the know that she’s talking about Mieville? He’s (accidentally?) been left in the tags at the bottom of the page, as well as the cache versions.
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Jan 1, 2018 19:33
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jabby posted:It's probably not very helpful to try and quantify the level of 'badness' between this and what the law defines as sexual assault or rape. It's probably sufficient to say what he's accused of doing hurts people a lot, is clearly morally wrong and displays a breathtaking level of selfishness and misogyny. It certainly comes from the same place as Harvey Weinstein, regardless of your personal view on who is 'worse'. I guess that's fair, I've just read a bunch of the guy's political stuff and heard him speak on Chapo and he seemed cool and good. I desperately don't want him to be a bad egg 
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Jan 1, 2018 19:34
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If someone who you thought was ideologically correct turns out not to be you can take it as an opportunity to figure out what's deficient in the things they espouse which leaves room for them to be dickheads regardless, and then improve on it in yourself.
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Jan 1, 2018 19:35
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Everyone is terrible but some people are more terrible than others, also it doesn't mean that you can't enjoy their work, but it can get a bit morally iffy if you're financially supporting them by doing so. Buying a print of the Old Registry Office in Munich where the proceeds go to anti hate crime groups is not an endorsement of the artist, whereas paying to watch Roman Polanski films might be moreso. In conclusion  everything.Bobstar posted:Now now that's not true at all.
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Jan 1, 2018 19:39
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Kill your idols
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Jan 1, 2018 19:47
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Guavanaut posted:He does come from a country with strong Biblical opinions about milk. The real reason I moved to the UK is that Israel kicked me out when I went vegan.
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Jan 1, 2018 19:47
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OwlFancier posted:If someone who you thought was ideologically correct turns out not to be you can take it as an opportunity to figure out what's deficient in the things they espouse which leaves room for them to be dickheads regardless, and then improve on it in yourself. Also, people are perfectly capable of being hypocritical and/or self-serving at a personal level even if they can write out a intellectually coherent argument with good opinions.
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Jan 1, 2018 19:52
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Miftan posted:mods can I get a name change to Gay Frog Milkman? We need to be careful with these political Avs, I'm fairly sure Cerv is turning into Paxman.
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Jan 1, 2018 19:55
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Miftan posted:The real reason I moved to the UK is that Israel kicked me out when I went vegan. Did the kitchen appliance salesmen arrange for your deportation?
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Jan 1, 2018 19:56
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blowfish posted:Also, people are perfectly capable of being hypocritical and/or self-serving at a personal level even if they can write out a intellectually coherent argument with good opinions. Story of my life tbh. Haven't done any sex crimes yet to my knowledge tho.
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Jan 1, 2018 20:04
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Guavanaut posted:Going Vegan seems like an easy lifehack for the kosher kitchen. No need for separate meat and dairy ovens and dishwashers when you don't eat meat or dairy :rollsafe: Probably my army CO, tbh. ThomasPaine posted:Haven't done any sex crimes yet to my knowledge tho. Keep up the good work!
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Jan 1, 2018 20:11
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Miftan posted:Keep up the good work! Thanks bud, I hear I'm due a medal for 30 years with no rapes soon. Obviously I'm kidding, but it is worrying how many people seem to seriously believe that they should be applauded for not doing poo poo like this. It's as if they're implicitly saying 'boy I'd love to, I really would, but I'm such a cool guy that actually I won't' ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Jan 1, 2018 |
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Jan 1, 2018 20:18
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ThomasPaine posted:I guess that's fair, I've just read a bunch of the guy's political stuff and heard him speak on Chapo and he seemed cool and good. I desperately don't want him to be a bad egg This is perhaps completely unfair and I've been maybe ruined empathy-wise by my current BPD relationship, but it reads exactly like the sort of thing my BPD GF would write, based on the massive emotional distress which comes through it. If it were then at least parts of it would be almost certainly delusional and/or painting things in overly negative light. But then that's probably just personal experience bias, but a lot of the accusations are close to what I've had levelled at me too (and much other stuff besides). And no I never did cheat or go out with anyone else or anything such, before anyone asks.
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Jan 1, 2018 20:18
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Land of just honey still sounds rather appealing if I'm honest.ThomasPaine posted:I guess that's fair, I've just read a bunch of the guy's political stuff and heard him speak on Chapo and he seemed cool and good. I desperately don't want him to be a bad egg That's understandable goon buddy! When the accusations towards George Takei came out I was heartbroken, both because I love Trek (But you already know I'm a goon  ) and because he's espoused an awful lot of pretty good opinions since becoming a social media star.So yes it was upsetting and it took some time to come to terms with. And that's okay! I didn't take Takei off all my social media feeds immediately, but I got there in the end. (Also remember Caravaggio straight killed a dude and it doesn't make his art any less incredible or worthy.) OwlFancier posted:I mean the difference is apparently one of intent rather than effect, so at best the person being written about is clearly an incredibly destructive person whichever way you slice it. Yes, it seems to me that the subject of the post is almost exactly the same as a lot of those accused recently of sex crimes, the difference is that he's vastly more competent and subtle so he doesn't 'need' to commit overtly criminal acts to exercise the power he desires. I have no doubt if he were less capable with his words he'd just be blackmailing and threatening women instead. Plus, the scope of the thing plays a role. If I go and pick someone up tonight and exaggerate something about myself, well that's a bit crass but on a one night stand it's not hugely consequential if they think I'm in marginally less debt than I really am. Telling ongoing lies for years and loving with someone's emotions for years as a result is just a wee bit shittier. And even without overt threats a woman on the receiving end of that is likely to very quickly start worrying for her physical safety as well.
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Jan 1, 2018 20:23
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Wait Takei is evil?
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Jan 1, 2018 20:24
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OwlFancier posted:Wait Takei is evil? Molested some dude apparently. http://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/11/entertainment/george-takei-sexual-misconduct-allegation/index.html
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Jan 1, 2018 20:25
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Well bollocks.
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Jan 1, 2018 20:26
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OwlFancier posted:Well bollocks. He says its a false allegation made up by Putin and perpetuated by Russian twitter bots, if that somehow helps any?
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Jan 1, 2018 20:28
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ThomasPaine posted:Obviously I'm kidding, but it is worrying how many people seem to seriously believe that they should be applauded for not doing poo poo like this. It's as if they're implicitly saying 'boy I'd love to, I really would, but I'm such a cool guy that actually I won't' I do think guys (and particularly boys) need to be given more help, both preemptively and re-actively. I don't say this to excuse crimes or awful behaviour, rather because guys working it out for themselves in a culture where macho crap is widely applauded is clearly not working and never will work.
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Jan 1, 2018 20:31
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Mister Adequate posted:Land of just honey still sounds rather appealing if I'm honest. Sorry to break it to you friend but honey is also non-vegan. Welcome to the land of almond milk and agave syrup.
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Jan 1, 2018 20:32
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Not Operator posted:He says its a false allegation made up by Putin and perpetuated by Russian twitter bots, if that somehow helps any? The Nadine Dorries defence doesn't help much I'm afraid. Is it really that hard not to sexually assault people?
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Jan 1, 2018 20:32
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Not Operator posted:He says its a false allegation made up by Putin and perpetuated by Russian twitter bots, if that somehow helps any? Don't think the fact that Russia conspiracies have become the final fallback position for liberal creepers is helping out much.
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Jan 1, 2018 20:33
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sebzilla posted:Sorry to break it to you friend but honey is also non-vegan. Welcome to the land of almond milk and agave syrup. Rice milk is the superior non-bovine milk.
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Jan 1, 2018 20:35
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ThomasPaine posted:I couldn't get through the whole thing because she writes like a continental philosopher but come on now, being a womanising bastard is hardly on a level with being a rapist. That's not legitimising it, but just kind of saying it would be wrong to throw him in with Weinstein et al. Remember the Weinstein thing isn't "one guy did bad things", it's about a culture of power and abuse where the men never faced any consequences for their behaviour, and they were protected by the community - partly through their celebrated public reputations as cool, progressive people. The whole thing was an open secret in the industry, people knew but did nothing and those abusers enjoyed success while anyone speaking out got ostracised That author talks about similar stuff, even if the predatory behaviour and emotional abuse isn't exactly the same. Most of the article is about how nobody seems to care even though his public persona is a Good and Correct person who's an ally of women, and there are more like him in the industry
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Jan 1, 2018 20:56
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Zalakwe posted:I do think guys (and particularly boys) need to be given more help, both preemptively and re-actively. I don't say this to excuse crimes or awful behaviour, rather because guys working it out for themselves in a culture where macho crap is widely applauded is clearly not working and never will work. You're 100% right. Some of the poo poo I believed when I was in school makes me cringe like you wouldn't believe today, and it took me well into my 20s to fully get rid of a lot of that poo poo even when I was actively trying to. The #metoo thing I think has drawn a lot of this into focus and honestly I do sympathise with some of the guys who have been called out but don't see what they did wrong, because sure when I was 19 the idea that consent/sexual assault was more subtle that 'creep hiding in the bushes' or 'violent attack' never crossed my mind - I feel like I was culturally conditioned into believing that unless a woman is literally screaming and shouting 'NO!' then it must be consensual, right? It's poisonous, but the whole macho culture and the concept of chasing (hunting, even) girls contributes directly to it. If you're so persistent that you wear someone down and they sleep with you, that's fine. You win. It's only over the last few years that I've realised that no, that's not ok at all and jesus gently caress what was wrong with me thinking like that? I've had to confront some of these really sketchy attitudes I had that I didn't even realise were problematic for so long, and have a good hard think about how they have influenced my relationships with women. If #metoo and the cultural awakening it creates can force more guys into developing a bit of self-awareness and get them to be more self-critical that would be a great thing, but I think a lot more should be done to incorporate education about this poo poo into sex ed etc.
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Jan 1, 2018 20:58
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The article gives the impression that he's a really lovely person, but it also seems like it might have just been a situation where a sexually and emotionally inexperienced person (she mentions ten years of celibacy or something) got involved with a far more libertinous person for whom sex and relationships are a lot more casual. I'd be a bit hesitant to make moralistic assumptions about people's relationships and how they experience them, and it's possible for a relationship to be lovely without any of the people involved being necessarily culpable for it. That being said he's probably a massive creeper because loving LOOK at him. 
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Jan 1, 2018 20:59
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Idolation and hero worship is dumb, and horrid people should be outed for what they are.
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Jan 1, 2018 21:00
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Though I think after the fact if your actions have obviously caused your former partner such an enormous amount of distress your response, as a presumed non-lovely person, should be to do some serious self examination. The lack of such certainly does make you a lovely person who is most definitely culpable for all subsequent damage you do as a result of your failure to learn from your previous transgressions.
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Jan 1, 2018 21:02
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OwlFancier posted:Though I think after the fact if your actions have obviously caused your former partner such an enormous amount of distress your response, as a presumed non-lovely person, should be to do some serious self examination. The lack of such certainly does make you a lovely person who is most definitely culpable for all subsequent damage you do as a result of your failure to learn from your previous transgressions. Oh absolutely, there's a level of sociopathy at play if your partner is telling you how hurt they are and you snarl back something about it being none of her business where you put your dick (paraphrasing the article). I dunno, I think I was thrown by the dissonance between the tone of the article and the events it ended up relaying.
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Jan 1, 2018 21:04
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*shrug* My partner is a fragile person so I don't find it at all strange to think that you could cause that sort of damage to someone who trusts you without laying a finger on them. That's part of relationships, you have to take responsibility for things you didn't intend or expect and circumstances that you didn't instigate, because if you don't you're going to end up hurting people. Sometimes you are dealt a rough hand and if you don't sort it out nobody else is going to.
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Jan 1, 2018 21:09
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ThomasPaine posted:You're 100% right. Some of the poo poo I believed when I was in school makes me cringe like you wouldn't believe today, and it took me well into my 20s to fully get rid of a lot of that poo poo even when I was actively trying to. The #metoo thing I think has drawn a lot of this into focus and honestly I do sympathise with some of the guys who have been called out but don't see what they did wrong, because sure when I was 19 the idea that consent/sexual assault was more subtle that 'creep hiding in the bushes' or 'violent attack' never crossed my mind - I feel like I was culturally conditioned into believing that unless a woman is literally screaming and shouting 'NO!' then it must be consensual, right? It's poisonous, but the whole macho culture and the concept of chasing (hunting, even) girls contributes directly to it. If you're so persistent that you wear someone down and they sleep with you, that's fine. You win. It's only over the last few years that I've realised that no, that's not ok at all and jesus gently caress what was wrong with me thinking like that? I've had to confront some of these really sketchy attitudes I had that I didn't even realise were problematic for so long, and have a good hard think about how they have influenced my relationships with women. If #metoo and the cultural awakening it creates can force more guys into developing a bit of self-awareness and get them to be more self-critical that would be a great thing, but I think a lot more should be done to incorporate education about this poo poo into sex ed etc. This was honest and well worded and I find myself in a similar situation. The "boys will be boys" bullshit is not just pervasive it's the entire cultural norm.
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Jan 1, 2018 21:09
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Got to say I’m failing to be scandalised by the terrible story of China Mieville legally cheating on his girlfriend. Putting this in the same paragraph, let alone breath, as Harvey Weinstein is ridiculous.
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Jan 1, 2018 21:16
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Oh well if it's legal it's obviously fine.
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Jan 1, 2018 21:18
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Comrade Fakename posted:Got to say I’m failing to be scandalised by the terrible story of China Mieville legally cheating on his girlfriend. Putting this in the same paragraph, let alone breath, as Harvey Weinstein is ridiculous. If a celebrated good-guy leftist is acting like a PUA and preying on women in that community then that's bad. If the community is enabling this then that's also bad I just read Kraken too :/
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Jan 1, 2018 21:22
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OwlFancier posted:Oh well if it's legal it's obviously fine. I mean on the one hand I agree (with what you meant by the sarcasm just to be clear, not the literal words) and what is described is by no means fine, but on the other hand I feel calling cheating rape or sexual abuse/assault cheapens and devalues actual rape, and that is in itself pretty problematic. feedmegin fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Jan 1, 2018 |
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Jan 1, 2018 21:25
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