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I would agree with high risk/high reward in USPOL if people agree that more moderation, not less is a solution. 24-72 hours. A month is excessive, 6hr is a long nap.
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Jan 6, 2021 00:23
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astral posted:Suggestion: Rather than break it up into smaller threads, would it make sense to retool the thread as a sort of index (with links) for a new subforum of US(Pol) Current Events? By bookmarking the thread, people would still get their single-thread feed of news which they seem to value, and any subsequent discussion would be taken to individual, easier-to-follow and easier-to-moderate threads in that new subforum. I will also agree that ramping probes need to be, well, ramped up. The mod team has talked previously (and even had an entire thread!) about how they want to do ramping, and then it just kind of didn't happen. If the mods think that ramping is necessary, then loving do it already. Threatening ramps and then backing down is worse than never threatening them in the first place, because now all the bad posters know they can just pay their sixer tax whenever they want to make a bad post.
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Jan 6, 2021 00:28
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Jaxyon posted:I would agree with high risk/high reward in USPOL if people agree that more moderation, not less is a solution. I think making it a "high risk" thread just punishes the people there engaging in good faith more than it does the people engaging in bad faith.
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Jan 6, 2021 00:33
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Raenir Salazar posted:I think making it a "high risk" thread just punishes the people there engaging in good faith more than it does the people engaging in bad faith. How so? People are already, per the forum rules, assumed to be posting in good faith.
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Jan 6, 2021 00:35
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If UsPol is so impossible to moderate, then just close it and let people make “the leftism thread”/ “dems are perfect infallible beings” thread/“I refuse to sign up for Twitter but I read a tweet once” thread/ “things are only good when polling is at 52%” thread and just rename it to like Current Events or something
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Jan 6, 2021 00:35
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PenguinKnight posted:If UsPol is so impossible to moderate, then just close it and let people make “the leftism thread”/ “dems are perfect infallible beings” This pair right here is really illustrative of what I was talking about earlier.
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Jan 6, 2021 00:37
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Raenir Salazar posted:I think making it a "high risk" thread just punishes the people there engaging in good faith more than it does the people engaging in bad faith.
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Jan 6, 2021 00:39
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Jaxyon posted:How so? People are already, per the forum rules, assumed to be posting in good faith. To paraphrase sarte, because the people posting in bad faith are just amusing themselves, the risk of getting a day+ probe is just the price to pay to try to see how many other people you can bait into responding to you into getting day+ probes themselves. Especially when you factor in the martyrdom complex, it's attritional warfare with a goal to subvert the system. Because 1 "bad" poster can potentially bait several "good" posters into making a mistake and eat a whole day, which frees their cohorts to further pollute the thread with noise.
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Jan 6, 2021 00:40
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Raenir Salazar posted:To paraphrase sarte, because the people posting in bad faith are just amusing themselves, the risk of getting a day+ probe is just the price to pay to try to see how many other people you can bait into responding to you into getting day+ probes themselves. Especially when you factor in the martyrdom complex, it's attritional warfare with a goal to subvert the system. How does punishing those folks less lead to a more productive environment for good faith posters?
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Jan 6, 2021 00:42
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Jaxyon posted:How does punishing those folks less lead to a more productive environment for good faith posters? The idea is that you're not actually in fact punishing them more with the harsher system, just changing the rules to the game with more bystanders caught in the crossfire.
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Jan 6, 2021 00:43
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Finally a chance to post in one of these threads before it closes. I've been posting and reading USPol and the equivalent threads since 2008 and they've often served as my primary news feed. If I was a thousand posts behind I'd read the whole thread, food derails and all. I did that for years. Maybe someone will say that Iron Age is the best barbeque place in Atlanta and I want to see what happens. I'm just not doing that as much anymore because of the problems. I think that letting threads follow their natural course even when it's not what it "should" be gives people chances to talk about things they find interesting and others might find useful. Something like Chevron Deference or the Administrative Procedures Act is really helpful to understanding some things but people aren't going to go to a specialized federal agency rulemaking thread. If there's a digression that many people want to engage with and fits a general "US politics" theme it's probably fine to let it continue until people start complaining. Using some sort of slow mode should also help a bit because effortposts take time and shitposts don't so much. Whatever the exact time is probably doesn't matter and can vary over time. One or two minutes may work some days while ten to fifteen may be better other times. Maybe increase the slow mode time when people go on particularly stupid digressions like encomia on Alabama barbeque or whatever. I'll also agree with other posters that some tweets posted without any context aren't producing any fruitful discussion. It really seems like it's being used as a pretext for going aggro on all comers to some sort of end. Especially when it's someone with hundreds of ignores and dozens of probations it's not like this time we're going to get the post that makes their toxicity all worthwhile.
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Jan 6, 2021 00:46
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Jaxyon posted:I think rather a lot of probations are handed out to people who are behaving badly, but interpreting the moderation as if their ideas are being moderated. When you probe for behavior arbitrarily as a reaction to ideas you don't like, it's not even-handed, regardless of specific justifications.
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Jan 6, 2021 00:50
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marxismftw posted:When you probe for behavior arbitrarily as a reaction to ideas you don't like, it's not even-handed, regardless of specific justifications. This is the third time someone has replied to this with some form of "actually it's for reals when it happens to me, I'm being banned for my ideas" As I've seen this same argument under every different moderation team on this, forum, and also every other moderate forum I've ever read, I have some doubts. As this is the USPol fixing thread, it would be great if someone could give some examples of it.
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Jan 6, 2021 00:54
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Raenir Salazar posted:I think making it a "high risk" thread just punishes the people there engaging in good faith more than it does the people engaging in bad faith. If someone is getting probed and those probes are happening often enough to get ramped up to "high risk" levels, then all the possibilities I can think of are: (a) The mod(s) are making mistakes and/or targeting that poster unfairly. I think this would get called out. I was also stunned when Trump was elected, so I am arguably naïve. (b) That person is getting baited by assholes and making poor decisions or responding poorly out of anger/frustration. If so, they need to learn from that and do better (this assumes that the assholes in question would be getting called out and/or probed as well). (c) That person sincerely believes whatever terrible crap they're posting. Good for them. Their views and/or how they express them are not acceptable in this particular forum. Edit: And before someone constructs a horrible strawman made of repression and censorship, I'm talking about obvious poo poo here--not just policy differences and subjective crap. (d) That person is trolling and or some other form of "just doesn't give a poo poo". The only instances where I see it punishing someone acting in good faith are (b) and (c). I don't give a poo poo about (c) and I don't want to hear noise from someone who's posting terrible crap. (b) is a little tougher, because I've seen instances where I felt like someone was genuinely posting well, for the most part, and making good points and then just kinda lost it and got pissed off and started posting crap. I feel for that person and have been there. That being said, I'll happily take those cases (even if it's me) if it means cutting down on the sheer amount of pointless bickering and lovely arguments. Edit: I saw your argument above about bystanders being baited into this, and I really don't think that's going to happen, especially if those acting in bad faith can't just eat 6 hour probes every day and continue on with the same behavior.
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Jan 6, 2021 01:00
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Ah to be clear, I am referring to a situation where the minimum probe length in USPol is set to 1 day, not about ramping frequently problematic posters! The latter of which I am all for.
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Jan 6, 2021 01:04
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instead of differentiating threads on topic, differentiate them on minimum probation length. i cannot prove but would be curious to see the level of aggro shitposting that happens in the sixer thread versus the week minimum thread
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Jan 6, 2021 01:06
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^^^^^ That would be an interesting experiment!Raenir Salazar posted:Ah to be clear, I am referring to a situation where the minimum probe length in USPol is set to 1 day, not about ramping frequently problematic posters! The latter of which I am all for. Awesome--thanks for clarifying; I shouldn't have assumed, and I think we're on the same page!  (I feel like some kind of alien even typing those words in this forum.)
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Jan 6, 2021 01:08
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Bicyclops posted:Please, please just make a rule about this, it's the worst. Any time somebody says "this thread believes" or starts arguing with "you people," you know it's going to get bad, and probably for pages. Address the poster you're talking to and not some bogeyman hivemind, and address the points that they're making and not "Of course YOU'D believe that" stuff. Anyone who posts "Ah, I see USPol is having a normal one" should eat a day. This is already a rule why isn't it enforced ? edit : Not aimed at the quoted person I'm just pointing it out
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Jan 6, 2021 01:13
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Pick posted:One of the main contributors to D&D, the creator of the Polliwonks thread and the exceptionally good Book Review thread, had to stop posting entirely because of harassment by dint of becoming an IK. If the solution is "oh, we'll ideologically balance the IKs and that'll make you happy", it doesn't if it means both sides get +1IK, but then within a few weeks one clique's IK has been forced off the entire website due to threats of doxxing and harassment. And considering that situation was in no way resolved or even addressed, the offer of "making more IKs you like" is honestly just a way to identify and target users who are important to that part of the community. This needs addressed and should have been then. Literally there was a group of posters that made it there loving mission to harass and target an ik, one that barely used their buttons, threatened them and actually made a loving helldump thread about them that was more insane and toxic then words can describe. All of this because he was pragmatic and not a screaming leftist. You had him misgendered and harassed. He had to quit the forums completely when they started trying to dox him, and we're forming a lynching party for a post that was written and taken completely out of context from a response to an article in order to justify another hate thread. None of the posters involved with that mess got more then a small slap on the wrist. Now we have some good iks, and two that literally probe people that point out flaws in their arguments. One of these iks that numerous times has been posted in threads with severally or false arguments that refuses to source data until backed into a corner then tried to justify personal feelings as reasons he's right. I've seen him probe someone in the old polliwonks thread precisily for this reason when said poster was sourcing good data and had very accurate insights, all because it didn't fit the iks beliefs on the results. Maybe you should be looking at what pick says to fix poo poo. And actually dealing with the nihilistic crew posting bullshit to drown out anything on these forums. Fixing the dunning krueger golem that keeps posting insanely wrong takes about a Wikipedia article he read the first sentance on would help a ton to because by god that poster is wrong 100% of the time
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Jan 6, 2021 01:14
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Jaxyon posted:This is the third time someone has replied to this with some form of "actually it's for reals when it happens to me, I'm being banned for my ideas" As I've seen this same argument under every different moderation team on this, forum, and also every other moderate forum I've ever read, I have some doubts. I'd rather not make this a callout thread about specific mods or posters (including myself) because that seem likely to fan the flames rather than improve the discourse. I certainly have my own blinders on this subject but it seems very clear (to me at least) that there's a ideological line that as long as you stay on one side, you can easily skirt the rules. For example, I find it absolutely abhorrent that people continually make race-based prejudiced posts in USPol and yet are somehow allowed to continue posting- if you need examples, search "White people" and see how many of those posters are still around.
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Jan 6, 2021 01:15
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TheOneAndOnlyT posted:Something similar was tried as "USNews" a year or two back and it died because nobody posted in it.
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Jan 6, 2021 01:16
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I literally have no idea of what any of UCS Hellmaker is referencing at all, and its emblematic of what I find tiring about USPol. Turn down the vitriol, be a little more chill, don't be an rear end in a top hat, or an awful person, just let people post whatever. Ppl care way too much about internet posting here.
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Jan 6, 2021 01:17
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Shageletic posted:I literally have no idea of what any of UCS Hellmaker is referencing at all, and its emblematic of what I find tiring about USPol. Turn down the vitriol, be a little more chill, don't be an rear end in a top hat, or an awful person, just let people post whatever. Ppl care way too much about internet posting here. To clarify, are you saying that the person who is talking about how a person got doxxed and harassed is being tiring and vitriolic, or the people who would do something like that?
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Jan 6, 2021 01:20
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Jaxyon posted:To clarify, are you saying that the person who is talking about how a person got doxxed and harassed is being tiring and vitriolic, or the people who would do something like that? It's old score settling for feuds that I have no reference point to. It's the kind of thing that makes me less likely to post.
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Jan 6, 2021 01:26
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Shageletic posted:It's old score settling for feuds that I have no reference point to. It's the kind of thing that makes me less likely to post.
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Jan 6, 2021 01:27
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Mods keep treating the drive-by Twitter and shitposting culture here as an individual poster problem, and keep punishing it that way, but it’s actually a structural issue with D&D, and one their own actions help perpetuate. There’s been a top-down winnowing of the acceptable range of discussion here for years, and it’s reached the point where actual dissenting points need to be imported to even spark a meaningful discussion, even if that discussion is by definition one-sided and spiteful. It’s easier to cherry pick something from Twitter or a screed from thedonald.win than it is to express your own opinion, especially when any differences are going to be minor shades of the same color. The moderation staff wants to both have and eat their cake - hitting posters for positions they don’t agree with, then turning around when people try to import other opinions, usually with a snidely dismissive “post better”. How about giving them a reason to post better? Stop coming down on people you don’t personally agree with, limit yourselves to calling balls and strikes with respect to the actual rules. Anything short of reversing course and actually creating a level playing field that broadens the breadth of actual debate and discussion is a short term, artificial bandaid. Put in reductive terms - mod better.
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Jan 6, 2021 01:27
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Wasn't that IK some weirdo who made creepy lists of forums enemies to share with their friends to try to harass those people off the forums in the first place? Kinda feels like we're better off without that poster entirely, tbh.
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Jan 6, 2021 01:28
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Shageletic posted:It's old score settling for feuds that I have no reference point to. It's the kind of thing that makes me less likely to post. I have no reference point either but if your response to "somebody got harassed" is "stop telling me about it" I'm feeling like maybe you should post less too. That's...not a great response.
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Jan 6, 2021 01:28
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The Artificial Kid posted:Are you saying that we should just let bygones be bygones? The herbivores and the carnivores agreeing not to relitigate who ate who? Just don't be an rear end in a top hat or terrible now. If whoever these people aren't on the site anymore, if the issues aren't happening currently, what's the point of bringing them up unless to create anger or animosity right now? My point is that past drama being relitigated without someone currently being hurt by it is insanely boring to read.
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Jan 6, 2021 01:30
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Mafic Rhyolite posted:Wasn't that IK some weirdo who made creepy lists of forums enemies to share with their friends to try to harass those people off the forums in the first place? Kinda feels like we're better off without that poster entirely, tbh. I think you're confusing two very different people here.
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Jan 6, 2021 01:31
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Talking about harassment/bullying/doxxing as "drama" is not the best take. If folks think it belongs in a different thread sure but if mods and IK's are getting harassed because people can't seperate moderation from ideological disagreement(which is already a problem), that seems relevant. And I say this having no idea of the incident being talked about and as someone who ideologically disagrees with Pick and has her on ignore.
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Jan 6, 2021 01:33
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TheDisreputableDog posted:Mods keep treating the drive-by Twitter and shitposting culture here as an individual poster problem, and keep punishing it that way, but it’s actually a structural issue with D&D, and one their own actions help perpetuate. There’s been a top-down winnowing of the acceptable range of discussion here for years, and it’s reached the point where actual dissenting points need to be imported to even spark a meaningful discussion, even if that discussion is by definition one-sided and spiteful. It’s easier to cherry pick something from Twitter or a screed from thedonald.win than it is to express your own opinion, especially when any differences are going to be minor shades of the same color. 1000% this it's super annoying when it's obvious someone's mad that their favorite podcaster or Joe Biden got made fun of and they're feeling vengeful
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Jan 6, 2021 01:35
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Mafic Rhyolite posted:Wasn't that IK some weirdo who made creepy lists of forums enemies to share with their friends to try to harass those people off the forums in the first place? Kinda feels like we're better off without that poster entirely, tbh. you say that but dumb lowtax still posts here and did exactly that!
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Jan 6, 2021 01:58
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Jaxyon posted:This is the third time someone has replied to this with some form of "actually it's for reals when it happens to me, I'm being banned for my ideas" As I've seen this same argument under every different moderation team on this, forum, and also every other moderate forum I've ever read, I have some doubts. It's not a perfect example (just what I happened to remember) but here's two USPOL posts less than an hour apart; the second is a response to the first. first post posted:You are just dancing around the implications of what you are saying, which is that you WANT unaccountable police. second post posted:[...] The first post was probated for "putting words into people's mouths". I can see that as a rationale, but I can't understand how it doesn't also apply to the bottom post. I don't know if it's as much people being probated for opinions, as people not being probated for behavior if they toe the ideological line. marxismftw posted:For example, I find it absolutely abhorrent that people continually make race-based prejudiced posts in USPol and yet are somehow allowed to continue posting- if you need examples, search "White people" and see how many of those posters are still around. "Cuban" also works here.
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Jan 6, 2021 02:04
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UCS Hellmaker posted:you say that but dumb lowtax still posts here and did exactly that! I mean uh that person isn't an IK or a mod, and I don't really care about them that much either way. It's pretty hard for me to feel too bad about what happened to that IK, I generally think turnabout is fair play, especially with stupid poo poo like internet posting. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 6, 2021 02:12
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Again, I think you got the wrong poster. Do you have receipts for your claim?
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Jan 6, 2021 02:13
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Pick posted:One of the main contributors to D&D, the creator of the Polliwonks thread and the exceptionally good Book Review thread, had to stop posting entirely because of harassment by dint of becoming an IK. If the solution is "oh, we'll ideologically balance the IKs and that'll make you happy", it doesn't if it means both sides get +1IK, but then within a few weeks one clique's IK has been forced off the entire website due to threats of doxxing and harassment. And considering that situation was in no way resolved or even addressed, the offer of "making more IKs you like" is honestly just a way to identify and target users who are important to that part of the community. This is actually an unironically perfect example of the kind of "drop a bomb and get out" shitposts that is specifically designed to make people yell and argue for pages. There's no specifics, just vague aspersions about an implied group of people, that isn't directly related to the topic at hand (the USPol thread), made by someone who is a prime example of someone who has been probed repeatedly without getting any significant ramps (50 probes in the past 7 months, only 1 was for a week, everything else was shorter). It's not in the form of a tweet, but there's no way to have an honest discussion about it and all it's going to do is completely obliterate any chance of a discussion happening in this thread until a mod clamps down.
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Jan 6, 2021 02:19
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Jaxyon posted:This is the third time someone has replied to this with some form of "actually it's for reals when it happens to me, I'm being banned for my ideas" As I've seen this same argument under every different moderation team on this, forum, and also every other moderate forum I've ever read, I have some doubts. That's because people aren't unbiased logic machines and will act according to their beliefs. An opinion that might not get probed by one mod might bet probed by another purely because of the beliefs of the person at the controls. That's just how humans act. All that said, if someone is habitually making GBS threads all over a thread, I've always been a fan of threadbans. Being looser with the 6ers probably does a good job of breaking up slap fights.
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Jan 6, 2021 02:23
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Mafic Rhyolite posted:I mean uh that person isn't an IK or a mod, and I don't really care about them that much either way. weird how you're openly lying about someone that left the site before your November 2020 regdate
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Jan 6, 2021 02:24
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Cpt_Obvious posted:That's because people aren't unbiased logic machines and will act according to their beliefs. An opinion that might not get probed by one mod might bet probed by another purely because of the beliefs of the person at the controls. That's just how humans act. Yeah I'm aware that humans have bias, but I'm also aware that people in political forums, since time immemorial, have stated that any moderation that goes against them was the result of ideology rather than their own bad behavior. I think that both things are happening. I'd agree that IK's and Mods should stay out of slapfights to avoid the appearance of bias.
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Jan 6, 2021 02:27
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