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berryjon posted:You mean all six, right? No, I mean the five that are on station #1. The six on station #2 will continue commercing. Also! I realized overnight that I'd forgotten a component in my math, so I may change my mind back... but first I need to figure out what the actual operating costs are, not the ones the game and manual claim are the operating costs. So far, I've determined that operating costs are not actually charged for the Command, Logistics, Short Connector, and Long Connector modules, while they are charged for Station Power, Galley & Gym, Life A, and Life B. (I've done this by starting a new game on a different disk and building modules one at a time.) Research continues. e: can confirm that even when operating costs for the Long Connector supposedly went up, they had no effect. FredMSloniker fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Jun 22, 2021 |
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Jun 22, 2021 16:50
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There was an update here. It's gone now.
FredMSloniker fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Jun 23, 2021 |
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Jun 22, 2021 18:23
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Uh, Fred, what happened to the money I put into Savings/the Bank last turn? It's not showing up there. Regardless: Canadian Space Arm-and-Leg Agency - "Where you don't pay what we have to! Turn 9 - Spring 98 "They're calling it the Da Vinci's Workshop," the Nameless Intern stated, staring in well deserved awe at the massive dedicated platform in Low Earth Orbit. "FOOL!" The Director thundered. "It is not enough! We still have the advantage and they shall RUE THE DAY they dared cross the CSAaLA! They are three months behind, and the first Dry Dock will be MI-YNE!" "Uh, sir, about that, the reports from the Science department were... underwhelming this past quarter." "Huh? Let me... WHAT!?!?!?!? No! This cannot be! They have FAILED ME! Nameless Intern, it is time for PLAN C!" "Uh... what?" "Hold on, I need to optimize for this. There's no need to expand.... YES! And I can do it cheaper because of the LH2 Module! Which we'll need because otherwise, we'd need two LifeB Modules, and we couldn't afford that. We can *just* do this." "Sir? Do you need your...?  "Nope! DEPLOY SANTA'S WORKSHOP!" * * * 235.4 Cash on Hand, 463.3 in Bank, 50/50 in Loan. New License - 250 Command (25) Logis (15) Life LH2 (12) +16/0/-15 Galley Gym (25) +0/+24/-10 2* Solar Collector (120) +0/+0/+200 4* Long Connector (32) 7* Building Platform (238) (-14/-14/-140) //Withdraw 18.3 Loan Energy: Charge 18 Transport: Charge 95 Pharma: Charge 40 Resource: Charge 7.5 Building: Research/Breakthrough (Santa's Workshop) Building: Charge 25 (Station 1) berryjon fucked around with this message at 06:27 on Jun 25, 2021 |
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Jun 23, 2021 01:30
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Didn't know there was a time limit on turns, but I guess there's no real damage from skipping over my last turn. New items: Building platform Pharmaceutics Long connector Life B Station Power Station Power Long connector Building platform Building platform Galley Gym Remaining cash goes to loan. Charges: Space telescope: 26 Weather centre: 8 Pharmaceutics: 34 Building platform: All on breakthrough research.
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Jun 23, 2021 01:49
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berryjon posted:Uh, Fred, what happened to the money I put into Savings/the Bank last turn? It's not showing up there. Decoy Badger posted:Didn't know there was a time limit on turns, but I guess there's no real damage from skipping over my last turn. Oh poo poo. Okay, look, I think I have everything I need to roll back this turn. Lemme just make sure I get the correct save state and save disk file pair. I'll keep you up to date.
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Jun 23, 2021 04:33
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Decoy Badger posted:Didn't know there was a time limit on turns, but I guess there's no real damage from skipping over my last turn. If there's a time limit, the game will be upfront about it at the start of the scenario. The limit here is because while I'm trying to squeak in under the wire against Fred, he's firmly on course to complete the objective on Turn 11 - and so am I. Rather, in a scenario like this, the turn limit is how well your opponents are doing.
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Jun 23, 2021 04:33
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berryjon posted:If there's a time limit, the game will be upfront about it at the start of the scenario. He meant that I accidentally skipped his turn.
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Jun 23, 2021 04:37
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Okay! I successfully reverted the game to the previous turn and made sure to put all of berryjon's spare cash in savings this time. As a reminder, this is the situation Decoy Badger is in:  I've removed the previous update and will post a new one once he's made his move.
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Jun 23, 2021 17:36
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Just let me know the changes to how much money I had so I can update my files accordingly, please.
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Jun 24, 2021 00:33
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 New items: Building platform Building platform Long connector Life B Station Power Charges: Building platform: 26 Pharmaceutics: 34 Space Telescope: 26 Weather Centre: 7.8 Remaining cash goes to paying off the loan.
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Jun 24, 2021 01:32
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After crunching the numbers, I've come to the following conclusion. Without switching modules over to research, it will take me at least four more turns to win, unless I get very lucky:
Also! More crunching of numbers suggests that the Command, Logistics, Short Connector, and Long Connector modules are the only ones that don't actually charge operating costs. I'll include this in my calculations going forward. Anyway, Decoy Badger does his thing...  ...and then it's time for the news for Spring 1998 (I note that, since these are fiscal quarters, the previous turn was Winter 1998).
 The EOS increased my loan limit again, to 94.2. That said, I'm down 24.5 credits from where I expected to be, thanks to some underutilized modules:
At any rate, one of the numbers I crunched earlier was 449.7. What's 449.7, you ask? Why, it's the number of credits I need to do this:  Behold, my fully armed and... ...er. You may notice something's slightly out of place. I misclicked when placing one of the Building Platform modules, and I briefly considered reloading the save state - but you wouldn't be able to do that in EOS, without potentially corrupting your save at least, and while I will bend over backwards to fix any goofs I make on your behalf, I'm inclined to let my own mistakes stand. Let this be a warning to you if you play this at home! Anyway! My module settings are now as follows:
 Speaking of mistakes fixed! In The Turn That Didn't Happen, berryjon had only 720.8 cash available at this point. (This turn, he got 95% Solar Collector, 100% Resource Platform, 100% Pharmaceutic Lab, and 100% Shuttle Port module usage.) In addition, he had much more luck with research this time than he did last time, when he only got one enhancement and one breakthrough. This time, he got two enhancements and four breakthroughs! Which puts him at... ... 27 points, and 200 credits, away from victory. Unless he gets seriously unlucky next turn, he'll win it then. Especially since he easily has the funds to start a second station and bolt a few more Building Platforms on it.  An accurate depiction of how I feel right now. And, unless my math is very wrong, it's mathematically impossible for me to reach B50 in a single turn. Frankly, I'm tempted just to concede at this point, but I thought I had victory in the bag in the first mission and failed miserably. Maybe I'll get lucky? Besides, we need to at least see how the Dry Dock gets built, gameplay-wise. And I can always collect more data.  Decoy Badger, sad to say, is an afterthought. 93% Space Telescope, 94% Weather Center, 100% Pharmaceutic Lab, and 90% Building Platform module usage. I'm going to crunch some more numbers.
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Jun 24, 2021 21:45
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 New items: Building platform Station Power Galley Gym Pharmaceutics Long connector Charges: Building platform: All on breakthrough research Space telescope: 26 Weather centre: 7.7 Pharmaceutics: 40 Remaining cash pays off the loan and goes to the bank. Eloi Wusk: "Folks, this is what we call a suicide burn with a sticky valve. But don't worry about your homes, I've got qualified immunity!"
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Jun 25, 2021 01:56
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Thanks Fred! Same moves as last time, let's stay the course. I've updated the post to reflect the accurate finances. Santa's Workshop will deliver!
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Jun 25, 2021 06:26
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 And this is why you make backups, kids!  That's better. I switched the Building Platform modules on station 1 to commerce, as requested.  And Decoy Badger does his thing. It is now Summer 1998. In the news:
 My module usage was:
 He saw 100% usage on all modules but those Building Platform modules set to commerce, which only got 89% usage...  ...and reached Construction tech level B76, qualifying him to build Dry Dock cargo modules. He buys a new station, and I proceed to do the following:  Going into the info screen for the station, I select "New Class"...  ...go to the "Advanced" setting...  ...and choose "Dry Dock" from the menu.  The station is now ready for construction. Note the new "Planet" option. Until something's actually been delivered to the station, we can change its location to be around, or on, any planet or moon. (This option is only available for advanced stations; modular stations have to be built in Low Earth Orbit.)  I then go to the usual screen for adding modules. Selecting any module other than the Dry Dock cargo module tells me that it's not a valid module for the station, but I select that module, press "Deliver" 20 times...  ...and the station is complete. (Sadly, it doesn't turn green or anything.) Which means all that's left for me to do is press "Next Turn". (Sorry, Decoy Badger.)  And there you have it. Looking back on the game, I see my big mistake was in not following berryjon's lead when it came to getting some research in the bank early. I was focused on getting a Big Research Station together, so by the time I actually got around to doing any research, he'd had seven Building Platforms doing nothing but breakthrough research for three turns. Once I actually did start research, I had an 11-module advantage on him - but to erase his advantage, even if he hadn't built anything else, would have taken two turns. Turns I didn't have. My biggest takeaway from all of this is that complacency has been my biggest enemy. I had an idea of how to win this mission, and I stuck to it, even when there was evidence I needed to change my approach or research I could have done to point out the flaws in my plan. Going forward, I need to not just incorporate what I've learned but to never rest on my laurels. I need to stop writing programs to make decisions for me and start using them to offer advice, and I need to analyze the assumptions that went into those programs and be ready to change them when they're wrong. The good news is, by analyzing the pattern of enhancements and breakthroughs versus tech research (and can I just say how awkward it is that 'tech points' are a thing only tangentially related to 'points of advancement in a given technology'? I've almost certainly used the former when I met the latter at some point) I've discovered a big part of the puzzle: breakthroughs are worth ten points of advancement, and enhancements are worth 2.5. (The display rounds up.) Which means it was mathematically possible for me to win, or at least share a win, this turn, but only if at least 15 of my 18 Building Platform modules produced a breakthrough. It also means that breakthrough research is almost always worth it; while our sample size is still too small to say much about how often results are produced, we'd have to produce breakthroughs at a quarter of the rate of producing enhancements for the latter to be worthwhile, and we did much better than that. At any rate, berryjon's outplayed me - again - and deserves to break the tape. I intend to win at least one mission in my own drat LP, though, so I'm putting out another appeal for players; we also need to consider the next mission to play:
I'm working on some more post-mission analysis and will post it when it's ready.
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Jun 25, 2021 18:49
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 Here's a graph of the market history for this game. (Click for big.) I predicted what the market was going to do using a very simple model: if a market went up 10% this turn, I expected it to go up 10% next turn. By and large, this was pretty accurate; of the 144 predictions I made over the course of the game (for turns 2 - 10 in 16 markets), all but 12 were at least 95% accurate, and all but 36 were at least 99% accurate. So let's look at the outliers and see if the news reports were any help. The five predictions where I was least accurate, along with their deltas (the smallest of (expected/actual) and (actual/expected)) were:
In other words, the market news appears to be completely useless. Unless there's a great clamor to include it, I'm going to omit it in future and focus on module price changes.
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Jun 25, 2021 19:53
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Thanks Fred! I'm looking forward to your more in-depth analysis. BTW, my only issue with not doing all the scenarios is that I won't have an excuse to make more of these, because I'm having fun! And I hope you are too!  Although if people have ideas for 'optional' Achievements that aren't tied to the core missions/requirements, feel free to suggest them. Going into this scenario, I admitted to myself that I was going to crib notes from Fred's much better plan in the first scenario, and as a result of my appreciation for him, and his appreciation for me, we wound up switching starting stations, something that I joked about earlier in the thread. I hope Fred took it in good grace. Decoy Badger joined us in this round, and I was interested in how they performed given the mistakes that Fred and I had already made, and from him, Fred and my performance in this scenario, I have two words of advice to anyone who wants to join us. Space Optimization is Key. Both Fred and I packed our stations as tightly as we could to get the most out of each, and we both benefited from it in different ways. For one, I realized that I could use my Command Module in place of a Long Connector in my stations, which saves me 8 credits from the get-go in terms of resources used. In fact, it was when I realized that I could fill in every space of my station that I went for broke and did it, filling in the last three spaces and making the first Achievement for this LP - then I retroactively made two more to celebrate Fred's own works. So I'm tied with him now! Anyways, about my station design, there are two things I wanted to point out. First was that I was far more ... you know what, let's call it for what it is - obsessed with building Solar Collectors when Station Power is cheaper and easier to fit into the station design. Except, Solar Collectors earn money. And having two discrete sources of income, rather than the still-obscure ratios of modules that provide multiple sources of income and research seems better. They weren't the secret to my success, but I like to think they helped. Second is that me turning my initial station into a Construction Base wasn't planned from the start. I too was considering having a dedicated research facility as my second station, mirroring what I saw as Fred's work in the first scenario. To whit, build a large commercial platform, then throw money at the problem until it stops being a problem. It was only on Turn 5 when I realized that I could do it, and my second Galley/Gym module was allocated to prepare for that. That moment of inspiration is what won me the game. Turn 6 saw the full Construction Base built, and I put my pedal to the metal to research. I was constantly watching Fred for when he switched gears, and because of his economic insight, I was legitimately concerned that he would do something to pull ahead of me. And while he built his second station before me, and he revealed the results of his calculations, I double checked my own theory crafting and concluded that the most likely result would be the two of us tied on Turn 11, especially as the Turn-That-Never-Was had me trip over my research goals and I figured I would need another turn. I knew that if I got lucky, that was that, and I could win on turn 10. The replayed turn was that stroke of luck, and Fred saw the writing on the wall. Sorry Fred. My building the second base, Santa's Workshop was the result of my worried that I couldn't depend on Station 1 to get me over the edge if something bad happened again, or that I wouldn't have enough finances to build the Drydock. So I committed to staying with my plan on the TTNW. At worst, Fred and I would tie. And I can live with myself if that happened. In fact, I was even prepared to create a special Achievement for that - ones for if two, three or all four players 'win' on the same turn. I need to improve my finance game going forward. A lot. The longer the scenarios run, the better that Fred's method gets over mine. The only thing I know I have over him is a better intuition on how to close out the scenario and to reach that. You could say that I'm an "Ends" person, not Fred's "Means" style of play. I really look forward to having a full roster for the next scenario, as while Fred is doing all the hard work, I'm sure the people who are watching might still surprise me. As for the scenario itself, Fred, I would suggest skipping Shuttle, and move on to Mars Rescue. The larger starting funds (1000 vs 200) should help a lot in terms of getting players off the ground, but Shuttle's teaching tool - limited lift capacity per turn- can just as easily be rolled into the Rescue. It'll require a bit more planning and forethought, but again, I think i'll work.
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Jun 25, 2021 20:09
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My strategy was to make the minimum viable station and research like crazy with minimum overhead to try and get ahead while everyone else focused on the exponential growth->crash research approach. Except my research platforms averaged less than 1 research per unit per turn, which completely wrecked the plan. (Full disclosure: I didn't read the last round in very much detail!) I was expecting more like 10. And demand to saturate much more quickly. Building platforms only started to saturate demand once there were 20+ in the game. I'm working on a web tool to make designing stations/participation easier, so I'll vote for the shuttle mission to stall for time.
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Jun 25, 2021 22:55
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berryjon posted:Thanks Fred! I'm looking forward to your more in-depth analysis. Hee. That's cute! No ideas for cheevos off the top of my head, except for boring ones like 'build this kind of station' or 'get more than x of y in a single turn'. berryjon posted:Decoy Badger joined us in this round, and I was interested in how they performed given the mistakes that Fred and I had already made, and from him, Fred and my performance in this scenario, I have two words of advice to anyone who wants to join us. Space Optimization is Key. That's four words.  And yeah, I took inspiration from the computer's build during the first round. I planned long connectors or equivalents all along columns 5 and 10, dividing the station into three zones: the left zone, reserved for four-wide modules; the middle zone, reserved for two-wide modules that have passthrough connectors; and the right zone, reserved for two-wide modules that don't have passthrough connectors. Obviously there was some spillover as zones fill up, but that was the plan.For the research station, I did a horizontal build, putting the connectors in rows 3 and 8. I knew I wasn't building any modules bigger than 2x2, and I knew I'd be building a lot of modules without passthrough, so my vision was more of a sprue than my first station's design (though that one is still plenty sprue-y). It means two more tiles dedicated to connectors, but I may revisit the design in a later mission, as it simplifies module additions; the left zone in the vertical build is difficult to add smaller modules to. berryjon posted:Anyways, about my station design, there are two things I wanted to point out. First was that I was far more ... you know what, let's call it for what it is - obsessed with building Solar Collectors when Station Power is cheaper and easier to fit into the station design. Except, Solar Collectors earn money. And having two discrete sources of income, rather than the still-obscure ratios of modules that provide multiple sources of income and research seems better. They weren't the secret to my success, but I like to think they helped. I mentioned in the module summaries that the income from Solar Collectors is bad; they have a low base charge for their size, so you won't be earning a lot with that space. But Station Power earns you nothing, so that makes Solar Collectors more attractive than I had previously thought. The operating cost is also the same as a single Station Power module. berryjon posted:My building the second base, Santa's Workshop was the result of my worried that I couldn't depend on Station 1 to get me over the edge if something bad happened again, or that I wouldn't have enough finances to build the Drydock. So I committed to staying with my plan on the TTNW. At worst, Fred and I would tie. And I can live with myself if that happened. In fact, I was even prepared to create a special Achievement for that - ones for if two, three or all four players 'win' on the same turn. Fun fact: the update, as I first wrote it, had me realizing that, while you could afford a new station, you couldn't afford to complete the Dry Dock. I was back in the game, I said! I had a "Surprise, motherfucker!" GIF all ready to go! Then I realized, as I did the final proofread, that I hadn't accounted for the amount you could borrow from the EOS bank. Whoops. berryjon posted:I need to improve my finance game going forward. A lot. The longer the scenarios run, the better that Fred's method gets over mine. I dunno about that. As I said, the market behaves rather predictably, except when it doesn't, and there doesn't seem to be any warning when it does. I also need to examine my assumptions about how the market behaves; if it goes from 200 to 220, a 10% growth, I've been assuming another 10% growth will take it to 242 - but it may be additive, not multiplicative (which would put it at 240). I'll have to analyze the market history from this game some more. And analyzing the market isn't the only factor. If the goal were nothing but to make the most profitable station, sure, I can do that - but no mission has that as its goal. Going forward, I need to look at things like research module efficiency and station class bonuses. (For instance, if I can find seven tiles for seven Weather Centers, I can make a station a Science Lab Station and get improved research across the board.) Speaking of examining assumptions, we didn't test modules that provide more than one research activity in this scenario. I fired up a new game in the "Research" scenario and built a station with a Solar Collector module for income and a Communications module set to breakthrough research. Over the course of the scenario, the Communications module produced a single enhancement, which put me at Information A03, Communications A03, and Entertainment... A05. I'm going to run more tests and see what comes of them. Decoy Badger posted:My strategy was to make the minimum viable station and research like crazy with minimum overhead to try and get ahead while everyone else focused on the exponential growth->crash research approach. Except my research platforms averaged less than 1 research per unit per turn, which completely wrecked the plan. (Full disclosure: I didn't read the last round in very much detail!) I was expecting more like 10. And demand to saturate much more quickly. Building platforms only started to saturate demand once there were 20+ in the game. Yeah, demand doesn't work the way you'd think it does. As far as I can tell, it's more or less a flat multiplier on the base charge of a module. That said, the data's there if you want to test any theories you have to the contrary! Decoy Badger posted:I'm working on a web tool to make designing stations/participation easier, so I'll vote for the shuttle mission to stall for time. I'm pleased that you two have been making efforts to improve the quality of this LP! If you need anything from me, like pictures of the modules, just let me know.
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Jun 26, 2021 00:26
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FredMSloniker posted:I mentioned in the module summaries that the income from Solar Collectors is bad; they have a low base charge for their size, so you won't be earning a lot with that space. But Station Power earns you nothing, so that makes Solar Collectors more attractive than I had previously thought. The operating cost is also the same as a single Station Power module. FredMSloniker posted:I'm pleased that you two have been making efforts to improve the quality of this LP! If you need anything from me, like pictures of the modules, just let me know. Pictures of Modules as they become available would be wonderful, thank you. I'm bad at extracting images from the PDF. And for Research!, may I suggest a test where you start a 4 player game, have each station be exactly the same, and see how things shake out? You'll quadruple the amount of data you get each run at least.
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Jun 26, 2021 01:14
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berryjon posted:Pictures of Modules as they become available would be wonderful, thank you. I'm bad at extracting images from the PDF. They're all up on LPix; lemme get them for you...                                        There. The file names should be self-explanatory. (At one point they were in the second post; I might put them back in as links.) berryjon posted:And for Research!, may I suggest a test where you start a 4 player game, have each station be exactly the same, and see how things shake out? You'll quadruple the amount of data you get each run at least. As it happens, I started a new game in the "Mars Rescue" mission in order to get the thousand credits, which I used to build this:  It has one of each module available at the start of the game that provides activities, and an additional Shuttle Port module and three Solar Collector modules set to commerce mode to pay for it all (the extra Solar Collector modules also provide necessary power). I left all of the research modules on enhancement mode. While I waited for those Mars colonists to die, I collected information each turn on what modules had produced enhancements and what the resulting tech levels were. Then I analyzed the results, coming up with some surprising numbers. In increasing order of interestingness:
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Jun 26, 2021 06:12
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I'm going to go ahead and start the next mission tomorrow sometime; after some thought, I've decided to give the "Shuttle!" mission a go. I'm going to go ahead and ping for lurkers again while I'm at it; are people other than berryjon and Decoy Badger enjoying themselves and, if not, what can I do to improve the situation?
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Jun 29, 2021 03:59
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If anyone is concerned that they don't understand Station building, I'm planning on writing a primer for such things. That should help. And worst comes to worst, you can copy the basics of what Fred and I are doing.
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Jun 29, 2021 04:03
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 Welcome to "Shuttle!" In this mission, we get to know the third and final optional game mechanic. We'll get into it more shortly. For now, have some first-turn module updates. (Would you prefer to have these at the start of the post, where I previously had news, or at the end, as part of a summary? And what else might you want as an end-of-post summary?)
 As you can see, we have a new button to push! (And now I'm curious why we have the "Probes" button at all; it's only relevant in the very last mission.) Let's go ahead and push it.  Let's talk Shuttles. The Space Shuttle (capitalization significant) was once the workhorse of NASA. Its history is too long to get into here, but it starts way back in 1968, with the first actual flight in 1981 and the last in 2011. Earth Orbit Stations came out in 1987, a year after the Challenger disaster, which is my first personal 'where were you when' moment. (Sunday school in Granite Falls, Washington. The second was the Twin Towers; at work in Seattle, Washington.) It reflects an optimism about the future of space travel that has yet to be obtained, and certainly won't take the shape EA predicted. On this screen, you can see the upcoming Shuttle launches. Most of the Shuttles in the fleet are launching next quarter, though the Columbia's 151st mission is scheduled for the fall and the... ...wait.  ...I really don't know what to think about this. At first, I thought including the Challenger in the list of Shuttles was plain bad taste, but on closer study, I realize the Shuttle's named the Challenger 7. Did EA envision a new Shuttle being named in honor of the disaster? I don't know if that's respectful or not. I'm leaning toward 'too soon', especially since it's apparently completed 79 missions by the time the game starts. Anyway. Spooky ghost Shuttles aside, you can also see that EOS owns all of the Shuttles, and you can see their cargo capacity; the Shuttle-Derived Heavy Lift Launch Vehicle, which never got past the proposal stage in real life, is, in the distant future of 1996, the, well, heavy lifter of the fleet. (At this point, I noticed that the manual mentioned the SD/HLV. Whoops!) Since it hasn't been relevant until now, here's a quick summary of the weight of the modules we can build from the start (the full module data is, as always, in the second post):
So. We now have an additional step in turn processing. You need to announce what modules you want to buy. I'll calculate how much Shuttle fleet space that'll take, and if it can't all get lifted this turn, I'll let you know. It'll then be up to all of us to negotiate the conflict. Do you want to pay the other players to let you use the lift capacity? Can you be bribed into putting off a module or two? Or are you willing to buy the module now and commit to launching it later, so no one can take it from you then? (Note that it doesn't cost anything extra to launch modules; EOS pays for the gas, I guess!) We each have 200 credits and another 50 that we can borrow. I need a bit longer to figure out what I want to do with my turn, but you now have all the information I do. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHIo6qwJarI
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Jun 29, 2021 21:52
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Rough that all the station life support went up in upkeep immediately.
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Jun 30, 2021 00:04
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That doesn't seem right. Fred, do me a favor, and test launch a bunch of stuff for your station, then switch to my turn and see if that affects my lift capacity. Because 14t between up to four players means that no one is getting into space with a working station until turn 3. It takes 9T to launch the bare minimum station (Command, Life A, Short Connector, Galley, Logis, Station Power), and that seems ... like it's not adding up. Now, 14t per player on turn 1? That's more viable.
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Jun 30, 2021 00:20
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berryjon posted:That doesn't seem right. Fred, do me a favor, and test launch a bunch of stuff for your station, then switch to my turn and see if that affects my lift capacity. In my test save, I put several modules onto Shuttles, then switched to a different player. Their Shuttle menu showed the Shuttles as unavailable. So yes, that's 14 tons for all of us. If that seems like an undue burden to you and Decoy Badger, we can skip this mission and turn Shuttles off for future missions.
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Jun 30, 2021 00:46
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Yeah, 14t between the three of us, then 4t total next turn, then 2t? That's a single player limitation, not a multiplayer one. gently caress that, let's move on. Although in the spirit of Shuttle Lift limitations, we could do a self-imposed challenge. 15t on Turn 1, then a small limit each following turn. I'm up for negotiations.
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Jun 30, 2021 01:35
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So, you want to build a Low Earth Orbit Station! Part 1 - Basic Components Great! Welcome to the game, and have fun! This mini-series is intended to act as a primer for building your LEO facilities. I will explain the vital functions of your Modular Stations, and how to better build them to get the most out of them. So, let's begin with what everyone needs! The Six Vital Components Each EOS requires six basic modules in order to function, and they are the Command Module, the Logistics Module, the Life Support Module, the Galley and Gym Module, a Power Module and a Connector Module. Now, let's break these down in order of importance, shall we? 25 Credits to Buy, 5.0* Credits to Operate. +0 Life, +0 GGym, +0 Power, 2tons. The Command Module is the heart of your station, from which all other modules spring. Literally, as you pretty much have to place this one first, and everything connects back to it. When placing the Command Module, you should be aware that it has partial connector symmetry, three connections out one end, but only a single one out the other. This means that it tends to be placed either at a junction point in a station, or paired with another module that is a dead end in terms of further junctions. You'll see what I mean when I get to showing off basic designs. * And it turns out that our amazing LPer, Fred, discovered that the Command Module actually costs nothing to run per turn. I don't mind at all! 15 Credits to Buy, 3.0* Credits to Operate. +0 Life, +0 GGym, +0 Power, 2tons. The Logistics Module is your first 'dead head' Module, or tied with it. It is one that occupies a 1x2 space on your Station, and only connects on one end. This Module is described as providing the technical workings of the rest of the station, making sure that all the systems hook up properly and that they work. Your <insert language here>naughts will thank you for providing it! This module, like the Command Module, is required in all modular stations, but in of itself, does nothing. It takes up space, and, if it had any, credits to operate. Because apparently, this one doesn't either! and Life A: 10 Credits to Buy, 2.0 Credits to Operate. +4 Life, +0 GGym, -5 Power, 1ton. Life B: 18 Credits to Buy, 3.6 Credits to Operate. +8 Life, +0 GGym, -10 Power, 2tons. These are the two basic Life Support Modules available at the start of any game, and they provide the necessary Life Support for your crew. The "A" module is a single space module with two connection points on opposite ends, which makes it a very easy-to-fit extension module that provides some benefit when a Short Connector won't do. It does provide a minimal amount of Life support though, which can quickly be eaten up by the needs of your expanding stations. Which is where the Life B come into play. This 1x2 Module also sports two connection points on the opposite ends of the module, enabling it to be a fairly standard 'gapping' module where a Long Connector could fit, but also provides Life Support. Speaking of, this Module costs 180% of the Life A to build and operate, but provides 200% the Life support, and requires 200% the power. Really, this module is more efficient all around, and should be your go-to for Life Support Modules unless you're fitting in a small space for that last needed bit. 25 Credits to Purchase, 5 Credits to operate. +0 Life, +24 GGym, -10 Power, 2tons The Galley & Gym provide recreation and exercise for your <insert language here>naughts while in space, a vital component to their long-term habitability. But you know what's nice in attention to detail? I can see that the image for the module contains what appears to be some sort of rotating section to provide some degree of artificial acceleration for your crew. Cool! Curiously, this Module provides a massive 24 crew-persons of resources, meaning that you will wind up with three Life B modules on your station before you need a second one of these, and I cannot yet conceive of a time when you would need a third. This 1x2 Module is also a dead-head module, meaning that its best placed against the edge of your station, or in a position where its inability to connect won't matter much. and Station Power: 10 Credits to Buy, 2 Credits to Operate. +0 Life, +0 GGym, +35 Power, 1ton Solar Collector: 60 Credits to Buy, 2 Credits to Operate, +0 Life, +0 GGym, +100 Power, 4tons, Commerce 20. These two Modules provide power to your station, the third required resource. Both are dead-head Modules, meaning that they only have one connector point. Now, Fred and I have some disagreements over which is better for your station, and I will attempt to be neutral in explaining the advantages and disadvantages of both. The first thing most people notice is that there is a massive size difference between the two modules. The Power module is simple 1x2 Module, while the Collector is a massive 2x4 Module, making it tied for the second largest module in the game. The Power Module can easily slot into any Station without requiring much in the way of planning for forethought. Whereas a Collector Module is a massive investment in space and planning, often blocking out further expansion opportunities unless great care is taken in the placement. Thus, on a size scale, you can fit Four Power modules into the place of a Collector, at a cost of 40 vs 60 up front, and generating 140 vs 100 power. In addition, the four Power Modules can be placed anywhere around the station, and not congruent with each other, making them far more versatile in the long run. On the other hand,they do require 4 Connector slots to operate, rather than the single slot of the Collector - though again, the sheer size of the Collector will mean that it will probably block off at least one other connection slot unless odd design choices are made. However, that is not the end of the comparison. At the most basic, the Collector and Power Modules have the same operating cost, meaning that for the above example of same-space, the four Power Modules will cost four times as much as the single Collector. And after four turns, the economic costs of the module will be (40+(4*8))=72 Credits for the Power Modules, vs (60+(4*2))=68 Credits for the Collector. And then, the Collector is the first Module we have seen so far with a Commerce Charge. This means that the Collector can earn you money, charging for its services for the planet below. While this is a mere 20 Credits per turn, multiplied by the Market value of the Energy sector, the Collector Module can pay for itself in 3-4 turns easily, producing a net economic profit in a short-ish amount of time. There is no 'Right' choice between the two. Power modules are efficient in terms of space and utility, but are a net drain on finances while Collectors are space intensive and require a much larger up front investment for longer-term benefits. and Short Connector: 5 Credits to Build, 1.0* Credits to Operate. +0 Life, +0 GGym, +0 Power, 1ton. Long Connector: 8 Credits to Build, 1.6* Credits to Operate. +0 Life, +0 GGym, +0 Power, 2tons. The most common Module on any station will be the Connector Modules. These are traversal points for your crew, and each side has a Connection in it, with 2 on the sides of the Long Module. I will be frank. With only two exceptions, there is no reason to build a Short Module rather than a Long Module. The Long provides more connections, is cheaper per volume on the Station to buy and operate, and provides more options for further expansion than the Short Module. On the other hand, the Short Module can allow you to fit Connections into the last vertical space of your Station, as it is 11x12 in size. This small benefit can let you slip in one further module in space that a Long Module can't. It can also provide a quick and cheap expansion location to slip another module in or around a preexisting module should you desperately need it. Don't buy Short Connectors unless you have to. Also, neither of them actually cost Credits to operate. You know, I suspect there's a programming bug where the game only checks Modules that provide something to see if they're on or not, and then charge the operation costs for them. As there are modules that don't provide anything directly, they are seen as 'off', and thus require no upkeep. That's it for now. Join me next time when I talk about station building, space issues and why a plan is your best friend. Or at least a good one. berryjon fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Jun 30, 2021 |
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Jun 30, 2021 03:31
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berryjon posted:Yeah, 14t between the three of us, then 4t total next turn, then 2t? That's a single player limitation, not a multiplayer one. gently caress that, let's move on. I got curious, so I checked, advancing a turn from the test save. Three more launches were added to the Fall 1996 schedule and one more to the Winter 1997 schedule, as well as a new one for Spring 1997. That much I expected. What I didn't expect was an answer to the question of why Shuttles are listed as having owners. One of the new Fall launches, the 101st of the Enterprise, was listed with 'ESA' as the owner, and its cargo capacity was already claimed by two Space Lab modules, whatever they are. So I guess it's a reminder that we're not the only people ever doing anything in space. (The rest of the new launches were EOS-owned and free for modules, though.) That said, for a mission the manual touts as "the best multi-player scenario for players who have some experience with the game", it sure doesn't offer much fleet capacity. It could be fun with a particularly cutthroat friend; you do get 16 turns to do stuff with, and there's potential to beg, borrow, and steal Shuttle space. Three or four players seems like pushing it, though. It also has this rather baffling bit in the section with play advice for the first five missions: Appendix E posted:One tactic is to bring up more support (Life, GGym, Power, and connector) modules than you need for your own stations. You can then sell these support modules for outrageous prices to other directors who have misjudged their support requirements. However, if your competitors plan their own shuttle deliveries properly, you're stuck with a bunch of non-productive modules. When would you have the space to do this? And why would you gamble on the other players' incompetence when, by spending the money on yourself, you can boost your own productivity while hamstringing theirs? It does touch on the second half of the Shuttle equation, though: once the modules are actually shipped, you have to attach them to your station that turn (or trade them to another player) or lose them forever. Anyway, I had a post prepared before you broke my train of thought, and though it looks like at least some of the info in it is no longer relevant, as it's written with a focus on the goals of this mission (or the "Research" mission), I figured I'd share it anyway.  You may remember me talking, earlier in the thread, about widgets. A widget is a hypothetical combination of a module that provides activities and the necessary fractions of support modules necessary to meet that module's needs. Previously, I've calculated the value of adding a specific activity module to my station by looking at how quickly its associated widget pays for itself; I go into more detail in this post. But there are other ways to consider the worth of a widget. When it comes to generating arbitrary tech points, as opposed to researching specific technologies, there are a couple of different ways I can think of to measure the worth of a research widget. One is to look at operating cost efficiency; how well does it turn credits into research points? The other is to look at size efficiency; how tightly can I pack a station with research? For this graph, I've ranked the ten activity-producing widgets we can currently build. On the left is their ranking in terms of commerce; on the right is their ranking in terms of research (an average of the two rankings I just mentioned). A higher ranking is better. (These rankings also assume the default market demand.) As you can see, the Resource Platform module is almost completely research-focused. Its enhancements produce eight total points split between three activities, and it's small and has modest needs. Unfortunately, its base demand is very low, and producing three activities means all three markets have to go up to make it a better prospect. By contrast, the Shuttle Port module is a commerce module through and through. It has an enormous base charge, more than enough to handle its operating costs. Unfortunately, it's huge and only produces one activity. Doubly unfortunately, that activity is Transport, which we will need to research in every mission starting with "Mars Rescue". Knowing when to take the income hit to get the hundred points of Transport necessary to unlock the much better (for research purposes, at least) Space Tug module will be a key element in victory. As for that almost horizontal line in the middle? That's the Space Telescope module. It's a pretty 'meh' module both in terms of income and in terms of research. The module with the most overall value is the Communications module, surprisingly. It's only okay for commerce, but it's better than the Resource Platform module, and it produces a whopping eleven research points per enhancement, split among three activities. The Pharmaceutic Lab module is also a good source of income and has acceptable research production. On the flip side, the Computer Lab's initial value drops steeply thanks to its abysmal research production, while the Chemical Lab is a terrible choice early on and only rises to 'adequate' when it comes to research. Of course, all of this is based on market conditions that change before the first turn and incorporates a number of assumptions about how the game works and what I think is a good course of action for this specific mission. Whether it's worth the bits it's encoded in is an open question. FredMSloniker fucked around with this message at 04:24 on Jun 30, 2021 |
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Jun 30, 2021 04:22
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Yeah, shuttle limitations sound cool in the abstract. And maybe they work in a head to head game. But not like this. Do the later missions have a greater starting capacity?
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Jun 30, 2021 07:35
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I'm fine with skipping Shuttle because wow that seems like a pain. I wouldn't mind seeing a Fred vs AI runthrough of it though!
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Jun 30, 2021 12:39
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Decoy Badger posted:I'm fine with skipping Shuttle because wow that seems like a pain. I wouldn't mind seeing a Fred vs AI runthrough of it though! Fred: Uses all the launch capacity AI: flails impotently Fred: Wins!
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Jun 30, 2021 12:43
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berryjon posted:Fred: Uses all the launch capacity With the way things have been going for me? I feel like I'd still somehow find a way to lose.   So let's talk "Mars Rescue". In order to win the mission, you have to do the following:
Anyway. Our modules of choice are rather narrowly declared - anything that isn't a Building Platform, a Pharmaceutic Lab, or a Shuttle Port module had better be a drat good source of income. That said, we're going to want some drat good sources of income, given how long we'll have to run the Shuttle Port modules in research mode. It's also worth taking a look at some of the modular station classes:
In module cost news:
 As a reminder, the "Mars Rescue" mission gives a generous bonus to your starting funds, so you should be able to throw a fair amount of station up first turn. I'm still planning my first station, though, so I'll leave you to it!
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Jun 30, 2021 17:42
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I've made my move for the first turn. However, I'd prefer not to reveal my first move just yet; I don't want to influence your decisions right out of the gate (code for 'I don't want you saying, "yeah, that sounds good, I'll do that"'). If you would also like to make your first move in secret, you may; just shoot me a PM and tell the thread you've done so. I will, however, reveal all secret moves, including mine, before advancing the turn, giving everyone a chance to make last-second revisions.
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Jun 30, 2021 23:54
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Triple-posting to offer you some free advice by way of what I see to be the single greatest obstacle to victory. One of the things you'll have to do in order to succeed at this mission is accumulate 150 points of Transport research to unlock the Propulsion Unit module. For the first 100 points of this, your only tool will be the Shuttle Port module, which produces three points per enhancement. If you want to launch your Cargoliner on turn 12, to allow for travel time*, you therefore need to generate about 4.5 enhancements per turn. Starting right now. And if there's a way to fit five Shuttle Port modules on a station and meet its support needs, I don't see it - not to mention running them in research mode would bankrupt you very quickly. To this end, I make a suggestion. In a previous post, I said: FredMSloniker posted:
I have changed my mind. It is absolutely vital that whatever station is doing your Transport research qualify as a Science Lab station. You will need the boost to breakthroughs if you want to even be able to go to Mars. Build seven of any combination of the Computer Lab, Chemical Lab, Space Telescope, and Weather Center modules. You're welcome. *The time it takes to get to Mars varies greatly depending on when you go and how much you're willing to spend, fuel-wise, to get there. Fortunately for us, the math's been done for us already. The Mars Climate Orbiter, a probe that made it to Mars but didn't quite stick the landing, arrived in Fall of 1999... and was launched December 1998. If you want to launch in Winter 1999, therefore (because we do fiscal quarters, Winter comes before Spring), you need to launch turn 12. I was actually surprised that worked out so neatly.** **This is not a guarantee that the Cargoliner takes two turns to get from Earth to Mars, or indeed that any of the travel times in the game are realistic. Keep in mind that this is a game that requires you to build a station orbiting Jupiter to communicate with planets beyond that, regardless of whether or not both legs*** of Saturn -> Jupiter and Jupiter -> Earth are actually shorter than Saturn -> Earth.**** ***Assuming that the point of the Jupiter station is to clean up and boost the signal before sending it on, and therefore the length of the longest leg is the important number. ****This is often not the case.***** *****I may have gotten addicted to making these.****** ******Send help. FredMSloniker fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Jul 1, 2021 |
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Jul 1, 2021 01:07
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I'm OK with revealing my moves. Canadian Space Arm-and-Leg Agency - "Where you don't pay what we have to!" Turn 1 - Spring 1996 There was no Director. There never was. Just a mysterious shadow. No, it was the Nameless Intern that truly ran the CSALA. The emergency call was unusual, and something seemed off - three and a half years before total failure? That didn't make sense mechanically. But the money was good. So very good. As long as they tried? Well, there was still money to be made. First thing was first, they would need a good base to start from. The market forecasts were pretty reliable, and curiously enough, it looked like the Pharmaceuticals market would serve multiple purposes. That made things... easier. However, he could not task the new research station to do that just yet. No, the Life Sciences Station, MedLab 1, would first need to finance more expansion in the near future, especially with the second station...  There was plenty of room to expand, and expand it must over the next year. The second station, however, was more bare bones. It was nothing compared to what it would become, but it had to start somewhere, and starting here and now was probably for the best. He could have simply built up the first station to a massive degree, and gone all-in on that, a singular line. But down that way... No, the lines had to separate, sooner rather than later. He knew there would be competition, and he suspected at least one of them would do such a thing. Their choice. It could be viable, but now was not the time for doubts. No, the Second Station would be required to start building up the infrastructure to build the ship needed to go to Mars. It needed a Shuttle Port, and where there was one, many many more would have to come.  The Transportation Hub was a diamond in the rough, but it was still a diamond. 14 Quarters to go, and the race was on. * * * 1000 Credits On Hand, 0 Credits in Bank. 50 Credits on Loan. CSS 01 - MedLab 1 Command, Logis, GGym, 3x LifeB (+24, +24, -40), 2 LongC 2 Collectors (+0, +0, +200) 8 Pharmacy Labs (-24, -24, -80) Charge Pharmacy: 26 (All 8) Charge Collectr: 21 (Both) 511 Credits Spent. CSS 02 - TransHub New Station (250) Command, Logis, GGym, LifeB, 2 Long C (+8/+24/-25) Collector (+0/+0/+100) Shuttle Port (-5/-5/-70) Charge Collectr: 21 Charge ShutPort: 74 486 Credits Spent. //3 Credits into the Bank!
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Jul 1, 2021 01:15
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berryjon posted:I'm OK with revealing my moves. In that case, I will too. But first: berryjon posted:The second station, however, was more bare bones. It was nothing compared to what it would become, but it had to start somewhere, and starting here and now was probably for the best. He could have simply built up the first station to a massive degree, and gone all-in on that, a singular line. But down that way... No, the lines had to separate, sooner rather than later. He knew there would be competition, and he suspected at least one of them would do such a thing. Their choice. It could be viable, but now was not the time for doubts. I appreciate you trying to avoid the ginormostation, especially since that was my plan. Unfortunately, when I tried to implement your plan, I was reminded that, without a Transbase, you can only create one new station a turn, and apparently your first station counts. I suspect your redesign will look a lot like mine, since you appear to have come to the same conclusions. To wit (turning to address the audience): Berryjon has been outperforming me in terms of focusing on the goal. I want to change that, so I started by focusing on the goal: building a Cargoliner with twelve Space Hospital cargo modules and getting it to Mars. I'm not 100% sure those modules can provide their output while the Cargoliner is actually flying, so I'd better put a Station Power module on it as well (I only need the one for the Propulsion Unit module). I'll also need a Command, a Logistics, and three Long Connector modules to put everything together. That's a total of 849 credits, presuming there are no price increases on any of those - and there will be, I'm sure. I also need to complete research. In order to build the Space Hospital cargo modules, I need Medical research. In order to build the Dry Dock (which I'll need before I can launch the Cargoliner, but not before I can build it), I need Construction research. And in order to build the Propulsion Unit module (which the Cargoliner will need in order to launch, though not before), I need Transport research. None of these goals depend on the others; I can build them in any order, or even all on the same turn, funds allowing. So are there any reasons to get certain research done earlier? Well...
So how much station can I build with 1,050 credits?  Turns out, round about this much. Unfortunately, I didn't notice until I started transferring my design from paper to computer that I'd arranged things so the Pharmaceutic Lab modules would have to go on upside down. Whoops! Call this station Space Australia, I guess! Now, since this is a Life Sciences Station, I can get away with charging extra for all those Pharmaceutic Labs. How much extra, I don't know. I'm going to be conservative and charge, let's say... 32.0 credits. And hope my understanding of the game's market, i.e. that these labs aren't all going to eat each other's demand, is correct. Oh, and as a Big Ol' Reminder to myself: MY PROGRESS THUS FAR
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Jul 1, 2021 04:06
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FredMSloniker posted:I appreciate you trying to avoid the ginormostation, especially since that was my plan. Unfortunately, when I tried to implement your plan, I was reminded that, without a Transbase, you can only create one new station a turn, and apparently your first station counts. The real bottleneck in design though is Commerce. That the two outputs of the Pharmacy Module went up 25% this initial turn, yet is also required for research means that the primary moneymaker is also one of our research objectives. Balancing that out will be a chore. Actually, you know what? Screw doing two bothsame designs, just one top down and the other left/right. I think FredMSloniker posted:Berryjon has been outperforming me in terms of focusing on the goal. I want to change that, so I started by focusing on the goal: Thank you for the compliment! It's just the way I think, I tend to be able to ...well, let's call it multithread a problem and work it from multiple angles at the same time. It helps with my writing.
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Jul 1, 2021 04:19
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Fred? I'm going to spoil this because when you see what I did, you're going to hate me. The following Station was built as the result of a heat-induced haze. I think I can optimize just a tiny more, but at this point, why mess with perfection?  * * * 1000 Credits On Hand, 0 Credits in Bank. 50 Credits on Loan. CSS 01 - TransSciHubLab From Sea to Shining Sea Comand/Logis (40 Credits) (-0 /-0 /-0) 8 Long Connectors (64 Credits) 2 Galley&Gym (50 Credits) (+48/+0 /-20) 6 Life B Modules (108 Credits) (+0 /+48 /-60) 4 Solar Collectors (240 Credits) (+0 /+0 /+400) 3 Shuttle Ports (231 Credits) (-15/-15/-210) 7 Chem Labs (182 Credits) (-21/-21 /-70) 4 Pharm Labs (128 Credits) (-12/-12 /-40) 43 Credits on Loan from the Bank. Solar Collectors: Charge 21 (All 4) Chem Labs: Charge 19 (All 7) Pharm Labs: Charge 26 (All 4) Shuttle Ports: Research/Breakthrough (All 3)
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Jul 1, 2021 05:31
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berryjon posted:Fred? I'm going to spoil this because when you see what I did, you're going to hate me.   That is a truly impressive bit of Tetrising. Not only have you filled every tile of your station grid, you've also ensured the station meets its support needs exactly. I still think I can beat you, but I spent an hour or so running numbers to make sure my plan was going to get me to the finish line on time and, ultimately, making some revisions. They won't kick in for a while, though, and things can change between now and then. Decoy Badger, let me know what your move is.
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Jul 1, 2021 16:58
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