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Bel Shazar posted:I should have kept a diary. After the riots, McConnell was in favor of impeaching Trump, but the rest of the delegation is now too radicalized, so McConnell backed down. Due to everything going on as well as extreme gerrymandering, the elected GOP is extremely radicalized these days.
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Jan 4, 2022 22:18
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Edit: wrong thread.
Cpt_Obvious fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Jan 4, 2022 |
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Jan 4, 2022 22:34
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CommieGIR posted:The military was willing to go with whichever way the winds blew, otherwise we might've seen more of a response. The civilians that were in charge of the military were more than willing to give the orders had Trump actually told them what to do. Lotta ex military and I assume some current military in that insurrection crowd. Cops. I think but don't know for sure that, for the most part, the enlisted are trained to be mostly apolitical but largely leans right anyway. Which makes sense but there's also a disproportionate amount of minority representation in the armed forces and I've always wondered how Obama getting elected effected some of the troops' mindset. I don't know which way the military would break regarding something like a more armed and violent 1/6 but they're beholden to the CiC, taught to obey orders, TRAINED to be violent and if you get enough officers sympathetic to a MAGA movement who the gently caress knows? I don't think it's a foregone conclusion to assume that the military simply won't allow a MAGA takeover, at least on the face of it. Didn't Trump shuffle around a bunch of officers, commanders and poo poo just prior to 1/6 and fill spots with people who would be "loyal"?
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Jan 4, 2022 23:37
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BiggerBoat posted:
No? Or at least I can't find anything that looks like he did? What are you referring to?
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Jan 4, 2022 23:40
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And if Trump did fill the brass with disloyal seditionists one "pretty please" away from carrying out orders to machine gun Nancy Pelosi and the rest of the House Democrats, is Biden cashiering those people or nah Is it like DeJoy where I'm supposed to believe he's guilty of a no-poo poo criminal conspiracy, but also he's doing a good job and there's no cause to fire him.
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Jan 4, 2022 23:50
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some plague rats posted:No? Or at least I can't find anything that looks like he did? What are you referring to? He did in the November/December timeframe after the election. Most notably he canned Mark Esper, who was the Secretary of Defense and replaced him with Christopher Miller who is one of the reasons why the national guard response was delayed. He also canned some intelligence secretaries. A lot of that was probably in the works for a while and not specifically related to 1/6, but the Miller hiring did have operational impacts. (Esper had been on the shitlist since no earlier than June for how he refused to use armed national guard to breakup the BLM protests in direct opposition to Trump)
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Jan 5, 2022 00:12
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OJ MIST 2 THE DICK posted:He did in the November/December timeframe after the election. Thanks. That was what I was remembering. I also recall something involving Mattis who wound up on Trump's Disloyal List by not sucking his dick well enough. Appreciate the help/info/backup.
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Jan 5, 2022 00:19
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Cpt_Obvious posted:IMO the results of the January riot was actually quite the opposite: the right really had the wind taken out of their sails for a few months. Every major politician abandoned the movement save a handful of loonies, the general public was aghast, Trump even lost his Twitter account (the greatest tragedy from that day). The police state got a lot of money and some more power out of it too.
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Jan 5, 2022 00:19
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Trump couldn't even secure the loyalty of his secretary of defense. In 4 years he had 5 acting secretaries which afaik is more acting secretaries of defense than any other president has managed in twice the time.
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Jan 5, 2022 00:26
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CommieGIR posted:Nobody here is pretending anything about the QAnon shaman, or did you think the entirety of the group was made up of whackjobs, or are we ignoring the few who were very much coming in with the intent and purpose to find legislators, if not the Vice President, and hold them hostage if not execute them? Has there been some evidence about people who were going to hunt down and execute politicians that day? That guy in your photo, Eric Gavelek Munchel, just picked those zip ties up off of the floor.
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Jan 5, 2022 00:26
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Trump couldn't even secure the loyalty of his secretary of defense. In 4 years he had 5 acting secretaries which afaik is more acting secretaries of defense than any other president has managed in twice the time. It's game over the day a competent version of Trump figures out he can just make his kid or brother Acting Secretary of Defense, since I've just been told the entire military officer corps are disloyal seditionists just itching to carry out a coup if only a SecDef says it's okay, and having a disloyal untrustworthy military is apparently a good and fine state of affairs and nothing the current C-in-C needs to do anything about.
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Jan 5, 2022 00:32
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VitalSigns posted:It's game over the day a competent version of Trump figures out he can just make his kid or brother Acting Secretary of Defense, since I've just been told the entire military officer corps are disloyal seditionists just itching to carry out a coup if only a SecDef says it's okay, and having a disloyal untrustworthy military is apparently a good and fine state of affairs and nothing the current C-in-C needs to do anything about. Seems to me, on average, they're more than willing to accept a rudimentary fig leaf and let things sort themselves out, it was just that Trump and co. were never able to construct a minimally viable fig leaf.
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Jan 5, 2022 00:35
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Bel Shazar posted:Seems to me, on average, they're more than willing to accept a rudimentary fig leaf and let things sort themselves out, it was just that Trump and co. were never able to construct a minimally viable fig leaf. Sure but that's the same position as the Democratic Party (that's what Bush v Gore was, a rudimentary fig leaf) The claim was though that the military was poised to reinforce the rioters as they executed Pence and all the congresspeople they could get their hands on which is...shall we say...not exactly a rudimentary fig leaf of norms and decorum &c. I would not say that ganking Pelosi in the back of the head and declaring Trump president-for-life is a "rudimentary fig leaf" of peaceful democratic transition of power or whatever, the way that "ok our guy is ahead stop counting votes now, this is a one-time thing and not precedent in case the shoe is on the other foot later, SCOTUS out!" was. Yeah if Trump's plan to win on election night, declare victory, and get the court to throw out all the mail-in ballots on a bullshit pretext had worked the military would have accepted that but so would Biden have. That's what a rudimentary fig leaf looks like, it looks nothing like a mob murdering Mike Pence and stealing the Vote Arks VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Jan 5, 2022 |
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Jan 5, 2022 00:40
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VitalSigns posted:Sure but that's the same position as the Democratic Party (that's what Bush v Gore was, a rudimentary fig leaf) Well sir that claim sounds rather incorrect. e: put down the riot and enforce martial law leading to the Trump's second term, maybe
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Jan 5, 2022 00:43
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Bel Shazar posted:e: put down the riot and enforce martial law leading to the Trump's second term, maybe I don't see how this happens. Military puts down the riot. Congress meets and certifies Biden. January 20th rolls around and Biden starts giving the orders now and the military does ???
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Jan 5, 2022 00:47
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BiggerBoat posted:Thanks. That was what I was remembering. I also recall something involving Mattis who wound up on Trump's Disloyal List by not sucking his dick well enough. Appreciate the help/info/backup. I don't think clarifying that the "Trump shuffle around a bunch of officers, commanders and poo poo just prior to 1/6 and fill spots with people who would be "loyal" you remembered was one guy being replaced counts as backing you up exactly. And even then, when the "coup" kicked off, what did these trump loyalists do? Did they immediately order the military to support the president in exile? You'd think that would have been more consequential for them afterwards
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Jan 5, 2022 00:48
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some plague rats posted:I don't think clarifying that the "Trump shuffle around a bunch of officers, commanders and poo poo just prior to 1/6 and fill spots with people who would be "loyal" you remembered was one guy being replaced counts as backing you up exactly. And even then, when the "coup" kicked off, what did these trump loyalists do? Did they immediately order the military to support the president in exile? You'd think that would have been more consequential for them afterwards he was replacing the brass that refused (and in fact reversed, literally, as the troop transports were in the air) his order to deploy the 82nd airborne dc to put down protests in dc in june 2020
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Jan 5, 2022 00:51
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Herstory Begins Now posted:he was replacing the brass that refused (and in fact reversed, literally, as the troop transports were in the air) his order to deploy the 82nd airborne dc to put down protests in dc in june 2020 Source? Who exactly did he replace them with, what evidence is there that those new brass are disloyal traitors who would carry out a coup, and what did Biden do about them?
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Jan 5, 2022 00:54
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spacetoaster posted:Has there been some evidence about people who were going to hunt down and execute politicians that day? That guy in your photo, Eric Gavelek Munchel, just picked those zip ties up off of the floor. According to the prosecutors, the zip tie guy seized the ties from either a table or cabinet. https://www.insider.com/zip-tie-guy-capitol-riot-plastic-handcuffs-police-prosecutors-2021-1?amp quote:Eric Munchel, a pro-Trump rioter who stormed the Capitol building while holding plastic handcuffs, took the restraints from a table inside the Capitol building, prosecutors said in a court filing Wednesday. The justice department appears to have considered and backed away from assassination charges. To answer your question: either the government doesn’t think there’s any evidence of an assassination plot or it is covering it up for ??? mawarannahr fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Jan 5, 2022 |
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Jan 5, 2022 00:58
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Oh yeah lol I forgot the guy who we're supposed to be scared of picked up his dangerous zip ties where a cop had carelessly left them and brought his mom along. You know an assassin means business when he brings mommy dear to work.
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Jan 5, 2022 01:08
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VitalSigns posted:I don't see how this happens. Oh i thiught the premise was they did manage to kill a number of the Democratic leadership. Without that (which I steadfastly do not endorse regardless of how funny Mars Attacks is) there's nothing. They didn't catch anyone and eventually congress figured out how to make a deal with the military to get the national guard deployed.
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Jan 5, 2022 01:25
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VitalSigns posted:Oh yeah lol I forgot the guy who we're supposed to be scared of picked up his dangerous zip ties where a cop had carelessly left them and brought his mom along. I think a bunch of idiot protofascists and right wing militias teamed up and thought they could use crowds of trumpists to zerg rush congress and missed their mark, and i think they were enabled by much of the rest of the republican establishment who didn't think anything major would happen and now they're all guilty having refused to impeach for purely partisan reasons.
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Jan 5, 2022 01:30
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Peter Navarro on MSNBC naming names and admitting the coup was planned, but it doesn't loving matter.
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Jan 5, 2022 01:38
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Trump couldn't even secure the loyalty of his secretary of defense. In 4 years he had 5 acting secretaries which afaik is more acting secretaries of defense than any other president has managed in twice the time. Yeah but in Trump's mind that's great because number go up and he set the big number record. By poo poo canning the largest number of losers. In all of history. Many people are saying... etc etc
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Jan 5, 2022 01:45
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Trump pussied out and cancelled his stupid 1/6 speech https://twitter.com/davidshepardson/status/1478504136048099330 some plague rats posted:I don't think clarifying that the "Trump shuffle around a bunch of officers, commanders and poo poo just prior to 1/6 and fill spots with people who would be "loyal" you remembered was one guy being replaced counts as backing you up exactly. Dude, I just meant I remembered Trump shuffling cards and replacing some leaders in military leadership with more "loyal" people in the months prior to January, forgot the details, and someone else rolled in to remind what I was thinking of so I thanked them for it is all. BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Jan 5, 2022 |
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Jan 5, 2022 01:48
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BiggerBoat posted:Trump pussied out and cancelled his stupid 1/6 speech Really missed out on a chance here to begin a riot holiday tradition. Would have really padded out the Christmas-New Year stretch, a shame.
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Jan 5, 2022 01:52
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They'll be keeping COVID going with a nice big gathering on the 15th at least. Hasn't his recent attempts at big gatherings been rather small?
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Jan 5, 2022 01:53
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Bel Shazar posted:Oh i thiught the premise was they did manage to kill a number of the Democratic leadership. Without that (which I steadfastly do not endorse regardless of how funny Mars Attacks is) there's nothing. They didn't catch anyone and eventually congress figured out how to make a deal with the military to get the national guard deployed. Even if they had I don't see how that makes Trump president. Republicans only objected to two states (AZ and PA) which wouldn't have changed the outcome even if their EVs hadn't been counted, and the senate rejected those challenges 6-93 and 7-92, they'd have to not only kill almost every senate Democrat but also almost every Republican to make the vote 6-5 and that's not a quorum anyway.
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Jan 5, 2022 01:54
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VitalSigns posted:Even if they had I don't see how that makes Trump president. I don't think an attempted coup would be "Overthrow a few states" but just make the entire election appear illegitimate which is what Trump was trying to do for months.
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Jan 5, 2022 01:55
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VitalSigns posted:Even if they had I don't see how that makes Trump president. I guess we're at an impasse where no one can really answer the question of precisely how many officials must be murdered before Trump is official or de facto president for life. I don't think anyone is arguing that Trump's attempt here wasn't a pathetic exercise and not really what you'd expect to see out of a successful coup, but it had the potential to be more serious even given the brainless hooliganism on display, and the fact that people died. We narrowly avoided elected officials being given up to the crowd. I think most of us are in general agreement that it was a dress rehearsal for a bloodier attack, however, and people have been radicalized to believe that More Must Be Done Next Time. I also don't think it's really a matter of debate that Trump planned a coup, however ineffective it was. Name Change fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Jan 5, 2022 |
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Jan 5, 2022 02:00
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Really missed out on a chance here to begin a riot holiday tradition. Would have really padded out the Christmas-New Year stretch, a shame. But you see Jan 15= Jan 1 + Jan 5= Jan 6.
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Jan 5, 2022 02:00
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CommieGIR posted:I don't think an attempted coup would be "Overthrow a few states" but just make the entire election appear illegitimate which is what Trump was trying to do for months. Right okay, but how does that make Trump president. Congress would have to vote to reject the election, and only 7 Senate Republicans did and their party was in the minority anyway and the Vice President counted the votes for Biden. Trump would have needed institutional support from the party leadership to pull this off and he didn't have it, how does the mob change that. Walk me through it. Sodomy Hussein posted:I guess we're at an impasse where no one can really answer the question of precisely how many officials must be murdered before Trump is official or de facto president for life. I don't think anyone is arguing that Trump's attempt here wasn't a pathetic exercise and not really what you'd expect to see out of a successful coup, but it had the potential to be more serious even given the brainless hooliganism on display, and the fact that people one the less died. We narrowly avoided elected officials being given up to the crowd. And they're still going to cocktail parties with Republicans and telling us those are the good ones who support democracy, while those same Republicans filibuster democratic protections.
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Jan 5, 2022 02:11
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VitalSigns posted:Even if they had I don't see how that makes Trump president. Not offering this as a direct counter argument, but I think the only time vote counts represent the actual will of congress it's for military spending and bailouts to large businesses. More than anything, I want to stipulate that the ringleaders consistently showed themselves to be morons. 'gently caress poo poo up enough to send the vote to the house or supreme court' is not a good plan. Bad plans were a hallmark of that administration.
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Jan 5, 2022 02:33
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Don't forget Infrastructure week, every week!
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Jan 5, 2022 02:35
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VitalSigns posted:Right okay, but how does that make Trump president. If Trump loses another election, which he may yet given how dumb Republicans are, there are far right groups openly planning to kill people in revenge. Failures during 1/6 and the continuing dissolution of the Capitol Police under this pressure mean this is a real risk. Enacting a grand legal farce to make it functionally impossible for Trump (or any Republican) to lose in the first place has been the plot for many years. It's an increasingly illegitimate party, which is going to lead to more turmoil and madness.
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Jan 5, 2022 02:45
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Bel Shazar posted:Not offering this as a direct counter argument, but I think the only time vote counts represent the actual will of congress it's for military spending and bailouts to large businesses. I guess we can't truly know what was in their hearts and maybe they just all took hall passes, but if overthrowing Biden really were the will of congress, why didn't take a single step toward that goal. They could've had Republican secretaries of state refuse to certify Biden wins, they could have awarded Trump the EVs, the courts could have stepped in, they didn't do any of that. What they were all just sitting there hoping zip tie guy's mom would behead Pence and two dozen Democrats and all the RINOs? I don't see how killing some Democrats would make the difference. Republicans had no reason to coup 2020 and risk upending a status quo that benefits them now, they already got what they wanted from Trump, and thanks to the filibuster and their control of state governments they're going to be able to do legal coups in the future. McConnell and the Republicans plays the long game. Why do they control the courts, did they just gank Supreme Court Justices until they got a conservative majority, no they played the long game: vetted people for ideological conformity and commitment to the project of remaking the courts, they made sure their guys retired strategically, and the stole the 2000 election to make sure one of them didn't die in a Gore administration, they demanded a vote on Clarence Thomas right before an election then blocked Democratic judges in the reverse situation, they used the filibuster to their advantage then abolished it when it suited them, etc. All of it nice and legal and effective. Sodomy Hussein posted:If Trump loses another election, which he may yet given how dumb Republicans are, there are far right groups openly planning to kill people in revenge. Failures during 1/6 and the continuing dissolution of the Capitol Police under this pressure mean this is a real risk. But I don't see Republicans losing a presidential election ever again. They've entrenched themselves in control of enough states to appoint the presidency under our aristocratic constitution, and thanks to gerrymandering they can't be dislodged, and Democrats are going to cocktail parties with them while refusing to do anything to prevent it thanks to  So I wouldn't worry about a violent coup overthrowing our democracy or anything
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Jan 5, 2022 03:07
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Yeah the whole panic about 1/6 being an attempted coup seems predicated on the idea that the republicans as a party care about trump losing. They'll have the Senate and congress back soon enough, thanks to RBG and Obama they own the supreme court and can trash any legislation they don't like in the meantime, why would mcconell and his crew do poo poo to try and preserve the rule of a guy they hold in mutual contempt? They can just wait for Biden to spend four years doing nothing for anyone and then sweep in with someone who actually gives a poo poo about their agenda. Realistically, the entire movement to overturn the election and install trump as dictator for life was made up of a handful of jetski dealers from bumfuck, missouri with no plan beyond waddling around the capital building taking selfies and then all going home. It was an embarrassing sideshow.
some plague rats fucked around with this message at 03:45 on Jan 5, 2022 |
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Jan 5, 2022 03:43
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Sodomy Hussein posted:If Trump loses another election, which he may yet given how dumb Republicans are, there are far right groups openly planning to kill people in revenge. Failures during 1/6 and the continuing dissolution of the Capitol Police under this pressure mean this is a real risk. Continuing dissolution of the Capitol Police? They've had their budget, and their powers significantly expanded.
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Jan 5, 2022 04:18
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Peter Navarro seems to have no problem just laying the plan out and also feels like it is not a coup https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1478524925711323139 Seems pretty coup-adjacent to me at least.
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Jan 5, 2022 04:21
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Is the statement I keep going back to a fair one? The Trump supporters at 1/6 absolutely believed they were committing a coup. They also had a childish understanding of one and no viable way to take and hold power.
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Jan 5, 2022 04:44
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