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Also, Siege and Fall of Rhodes has some sick pvp action with roughly 700 Knights of St. John and 7000 odd mercenaries from all over the Europe including Gabrile Martinengo, a famous siege engineer and cannoneer vs 100k to 200k Ottoman army. That's some 300 poo poo but Ottomans also had a great siege engineer vizier which managed to blow up English bastion but got pwned by English knights and Grand Master Villiers de L'Isle-Adam (a true pimplord, I have to admit). I was in Rhodes in 2017 and it was a beautiful Island. The main castle walls, Hospitalier barracks and the Ottoman mosques were still intact. Highly recommended visit after whenever (if ever) this Covid nonsense ends. Galewolf fucked around with this message at 18:00 on May 30, 2020 |
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May 30, 2020 17:53
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Sniped like Gabriel Martinento getting sniped in the eye during the siege of Rhodes 
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May 30, 2020 17:53
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Phlegmish posted:Vlad killed not just the Ottomans, but the Ottowomans and the Ottochildrens, too.
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May 31, 2020 00:19
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GolfHole posted:the fall of constantinople is honestly one of the richest pieces of history on this godforsaken rock Every time I read the last chapter of Norwich's History of Byzantium, I start out thinking "hmm history, very fascinating" and end up just shattered by the whole thing. Galewolf posted:Also, Siege and Fall of Rhodes has some sick pvp action with roughly 700 Knights of St. John and 7000 odd mercenaries from all over the Europe including Gabrile Martinengo, a famous siege engineer and cannoneer vs 100k to 200k Ottoman army. The Siege of Rhodes is just... I don't know of any other story quite like it. Did you get any photos from Rhodes? Incidentally, what's the Turkish view of Lepanto? It sounds like a really interesting counterpart to Preveza...
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May 31, 2020 00:22
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why did that end?
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May 31, 2020 00:31
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ChubbyChecker posted:why did that end? In a way it didn't. The "Sultanate of Women" just really refers to a period in Ottoman history where you had a lot of power wielded by women as formal or informal regents because you had a string of sultans, typically raised in the harem and knowing little of life outside it, who were all minors and often died or were overthrown and killed while still very young. The actual conditions that enabled this didn't really change. But from 1648 to 1687 the Ottoman Empire was ruled by this guy that kind of put an end to the whole period of regencies and child sultans. e: Also the end of his rule coincides with the Ottoman Empire entering a very different period after the defeat in the War of the Holy League and the Treaty of Karlowitz. In the 18th century the trend will be economic decline leading to the collapse of the Timar system which had been the backbone of the Ottoman armies, dissolution of central authority with provincial governors in many regions more or less ruling as de facto independent rulers by the end of the century, a series of revolts in Anatolia along with a general dramatic increase in banditry and lawlessness, and on top of that you pretty much have mob rule in the capital by way of the Janissaries and the urban guilds. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 00:50 on May 31, 2020 |
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May 31, 2020 00:44
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Randarkman posted:In a way it didn't. The "Sultanate of Women" just really refers to a period in Ottoman history where you had a lot of power wielded by women as formal or informal regents because you had a string of sultans, typically raised in the harem and knowing little of life outside it, who were all minors and often died or were overthrown and killed while still very young. The actual conditions that enabled this didn't really change. But from 1648 to 1687 the Ottoman Empire was ruled by this guy that kind of put an end to the whole period of regencies and child sultans. thanks!
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May 31, 2020 00:53
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Tree Bucket posted:The Siege of Rhodes is just... I don't know of any other story quite like it. Did you get any photos from Rhodes? Lepanto gets a short yet surprisingly honest part in Turkish education. Due to advancements in sailing and navigation in the West, super sekrit Ottoman naval strategy of "ramming your hard and long wooden ship and boarding into enemy with your swarthy seaman" failed against better armed (more cannons, lots of arquebusers&musketeers vs. Ottoman mainly bow&sword infantry called "levent") and supplied Holy League fleet. The head vizier Sokullu Mehmet Pasha was a very famous historical figure in Turkey as he was effectively the sultan due to his influence and Sokullu family pretty much shadow ruled the empire for quite some time. After Lepanto, Ottomans conquered Cyprus which led to Sokullu laying down some sick burns like "You cut our beards in Lepanto, we cut your arm in Cyprus" which was more of a chavunistic display because Lepanto marks the fall of Ottoman influence in Mediterrenean until Russians piledrive the last bits of Ottoman resistance in Chesma Naval Battle. I'll dig through my computer and post some Rhodes pictures in the morning 
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May 31, 2020 01:15
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Here are some badly shot Rhodes photos. It was an amazing and super chill island and my photos fail to do justice how relaxing the whole island is. There are smaller and beautiful beaches, amazing food and bars and taverns with amazing vibes. Lindos and St. Pauls beach was gorgeous and there is a smaller Acropolis in Lindos if that floats your boat (has a pretty gnarly uphill walk which might not be optimal when it's mid July and the island feels like it's quarter of a mile from the sun). The infamous British resort town Faliraki is also in here but everything that comes with the term "British overseas tourist" is amped up to eleven in there and I heard that it's only good if you want to get glassed int the neck and get exotic strains of herpes. I stick with the New City for nightlife and it was pretty fun. God, I miss Rhodes so much now. The "Embassy Row" with embassies from different countries and branches of Knights of St. John.  The French (iirc) embassy sigil:  The British embassy (you can zoom in to see the coat of arms with three lions)  The inner castle walls with some of the recovered granite shots from Ottoman cannons:  Castle entrance:  A terrible panorama shot of the Hospitalier Headquarters courtyard.  Hospitalier cannons  Breastplate and accessories with helmet. I think this one belonged to the one of the English Knights or mercenaries.  Bonus round, Rhodes kitty and a massive Gyro filled with chips and tzatziki sauce.  
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May 31, 2020 11:01
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Galewolf posted:Here are some badly shot Rhodes photos. It was an amazing and super chill island and my photos fail to do justice how relaxing the whole island is. There are smaller and beautiful beaches, amazing food and bars and taverns with amazing vibes. Lindos and St. Pauls beach was gorgeous and there is a smaller Acropolis in Lindos if that floats your boat (has a pretty gnarly uphill walk which might not be optimal when it's mid July and the island feels like it's quarter of a mile from the sun). 
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May 31, 2020 12:42
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Galewolf posted:Lepanto gets a short yet surprisingly honest part in Turkish education. Do you know how the curriculum has been changed recently by Erdogan?
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May 31, 2020 12:44
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ChubbyChecker posted:Do you know how the curriculum has been changed recently by Erdogan? Honestly no idea except osmosis through social media and friends with young adult children. Some teacher friends mentioned it became a little bit broader during the earlier years as per EU requirements but I imagine Ottoman  -ism ramped up in later years as I keep seeing some previously obscure victories and events and there was a rash of fall of Constantinople movies in the past 10 years trying to ride the Game of Thrones waves.If you want to check out the recent one, Fetih 1453 is on Youtube with hilarious English dub, feast your eyes on this beauty: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4TOUrxzd28 Warning: Absolutely zero historical accuracy, CGI made in Amiga 500 (hell, Amiga 500 had like amazing demo/graphics scene so I take it back), atrocious acting and LARP costumes. Needless to say it was one of the most-watched movies with 6 million tickets (which is massive in Turkey) 
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May 31, 2020 13:59
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Cool pics, Galewolf. Are you Turkish/of Turkish descent? Ottoman history is fascinating to me, both the good and the bad (particularly slavery in the latter category), and there is even a lot to objectively admire about Atatürk, even though he was a strongman who promoted the forcible assimilation of minorities. But the whole thing is somehow retroactively tarnished by how virulent modern-day Turkish nationalism is. The Armenian Genocide is a good example. What Germany did during WWII to Jews, Slavs, and others was worse still, but they have faced up to it to the best of their abilities. That's something that commands respect. Turkey has not come to grips with its past. It's not a mature country in that sense, and its people shouldn't be angry that it isn't treated as such. Erdoğan is probably the one I despise the most, because he has maintained Kemalist nationalism and intolerance, while eroding its modernizing, secular/progressive policies. That is my very Western European take, and I'm well aware that Turks have no reason to care about it except to bristle and retreat further into nationalism out of spite.
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May 31, 2020 14:05
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To be fair, Turkish cinema in 70's had hilarious takes on Ottoman history in order to capitalize on the anti-Greek sentiment those days. I mean, everyone knew Byzantine empire had Chinese kung-fu masters and loincloth wearing caveman in their service, amirite? (linked to exact time for the money shot) To be honest, most of those Battal Ghazi movies have like actual period costumes borrowed from the museums and like shot in actual Ottoman/Byzantine palaces and castles if you loot at them now and they were dumb fun movies to watch in TV as a child.
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May 31, 2020 14:09
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Phlegmish posted:Some of these stories about Byzantines/Ottomans are probably played up by Westerners (Franks), who feared and were disgusted by these inscrutable orientals, but it's not something you make up out of whole cloth, either. They had their own recordkeeping, much of which survives to this day. One cool thing about Turkey is that they still have all the records from Ottoman time. So as a Turk, you can log your citizenship ID into a webservice and then you get your entire ancestry and marriage certificates - which towns your relatives came from etc. It's really cool.
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May 31, 2020 14:23
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Phlegmish posted:Cool pics, Galewolf. Are you Turkish/of Turkish descent? I'm Turkish, yeah. My childhood coincides with post 1980 military coup where any kind of political leaning punished with hanging or spending your entire life in a police cell that would make Midnight Express feel like a pleasant afternoon watch. Turkish historical narrative is childish at best and probably one of the reasons why integration to EU failed so hard and during the recent times it became straight out "us vs devil westerners/minorites" thing so I expect it to get worse. Popular media pumping the glory and splendor or Ottoman era while skipping the bloodshed, oppression, and warmongering entirely is not raising an accepting generation either.
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May 31, 2020 14:23
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Galewolf posted:To be fair, Turkish cinema in 70's had hilarious takes on Ottoman history in order to capitalize on the anti-Greek sentiment those days. Oh gently caress! It's this guy!  e: Oh man, the last 5 minutes of that movie look amazing.
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May 31, 2020 14:24
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Randarkman posted:Oh gently caress! It's this guy! Oh Cunet Arkın, you handsome dreamboat Yeah, he is the "Turkish Star Wars" guy but for Turkish people he will always be Battal Ghazi or Kara Murat (usually the heroic Janissary or akinci of Mehmet the Conqureror)
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May 31, 2020 14:34
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Randarkman posted:Oh gently caress! It's this guy! Please watch this extremely realistic and historically accurate fight scene https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kjd6kLHq3HY&t=3262s
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May 31, 2020 14:34
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Galewolf posted:I'm Turkish, yeah. My childhood coincides with post 1980 military coup where any kind of political leaning punished with hanging or spending your entire life in a police cell that would make Midnight Express feel like a pleasant afternoon watch. That's what's such a shame. I don't have a problem with national pride, within reason. I'm not one of those enlightened, correct-thinking goons who has to pretend to faint upon merely hearing the word 'nationalism' mentioned. Realistically, people bond over a shared language, culture, history, values, etc. That's not necessarily a bad thing. The problem is that Turkish nationalism seems both very extreme and lacking in any form of self-awareness. It seems tailor-made to turn off anyone that isn't Turkish themselves. The specific example of EU integration I think was more of a two-way street, though. Many native Europeans have a knee-jerk reaction against anything involving Islam, including hilariously secular Albania, never mind Turkey with its population of 80 million. This has only become more pronounced in the last decade, with the whole IS episode. I don't think accession was ever going to happen, no matter what Turkey did.
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May 31, 2020 14:35
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Haramstufe Rot posted:Please watch this extremely realistic and historically accurate fight scene Duly done. It was great. Last 5 minutes are amazing though.
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May 31, 2020 14:50
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Haramstufe Rot posted:Please watch this extremely realistic and historically accurate fight scene I thought there'd be a few more boats at the Battle of Preveza
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May 31, 2020 15:36
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Haramstufe Rot posted:Please watch this extremely realistic and historically accurate fight scene  @ the airplane spin into the wall impalement, then the hard cut to some bedroom not one second later
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May 31, 2020 16:11
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EorayMel posted:
Priorities 
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May 31, 2020 16:28
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Galewolf posted:Honestly no idea except osmosis through social media and friends with young adult children. thanks! Galewolf posted:To be fair, Turkish cinema in 70's had hilarious takes on Ottoman history in order to capitalize on the anti-Greek sentiment those days. Haramstufe Rot posted:Please watch this extremely realistic and historically accurate fight scene
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May 31, 2020 16:35
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This is awesome. Seeing as Western society is on the brink of collapse as we speak, I'm curious to know how the fall of the Byzantine Empire went down. How did it effect the average person living in the city?
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May 31, 2020 18:11
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The Real Amethyst posted:This is awesome. This is always difficult to say anything definite about, but you have to consider that there wasn't really a Byzantine Empire in 1453 anymore beyond the name. And what was there was essentially a puppet state of the Republic of Genoa (they had supported the restoration of Greek Orthodox Emperors because the Venetians were the patrons of the Latin Crusader Emperors who had ruled since the Fourth Crusade). In a way the Empire had been dead a serious power since the Fourth Crusade, and was only really back as a formality almost. In 1453 Constantinople was seriously depopulated (more than half the population had died of the Black Death, and the city was depopulated even before that), what remained of the population actually lived in a couple of semi-separate villages inside the city walls itself, the Latin (mostly Italian) expatriate population was pretty significant and had extensive legal and commercial privileges. Even before the Fourth Crusade there were was an extensive population of Latins living in the city, and various Italian maritime Republics had secured extensive rights over commerce and shipping as well as privileges for their expatriate citizens. In 1182 riots targeted and killed large numbers of the Latin population. After the conquest the Turks enslaved much of the remaining civilian population (though I assume the Latins were mostly able to ransomed) and essentially resettled the city with Muslim colonists. Though the Christian population would also recover in time until by the end of the 15th century Constantinople was well on its way to recovering its position as a metropolis.
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May 31, 2020 18:32
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The Real Amethyst posted:Seeing as Western society is on the brink of collapse as we speak, I'm curious to know how the fall of the Byzantine Empire went down. How did it effect the average person living in the city? it is?
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May 31, 2020 18:48
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ChubbyChecker posted:it is? Western society has been on the brink of collapse for the last 4000 years.
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May 31, 2020 18:56
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Cheesemaster200 posted:Western society has been on the brink of collapse for the last 4000 years. true
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May 31, 2020 18:58
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Tell me about Turkish archaeology and how an everyday person feels about living on top of one of the various 5,000 year old incarnations of Troy.
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May 31, 2020 19:03
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In Turkish history, Byzantine decline goes back to 11th Century and the milestone is considered the Battle of Menzikert with Seljuk sultan Alp Arslan (Hero Lion in Turkish) in 1071. That's an old school Medieval Total War 2 poo poo with horse archer/archer center skirmishing and flanks closing on when the exhausted Byzantine center gets surrounded (also the Turkish mercenaries at the rear defecting to their homeboy side helped) and the right-wing noble going all "NO gently caress YOU DAD!" and not covering Emperors retreat is primo Byzantium.txt. Alp Arslan treated Diogenes fairly instead of chopping his balls off and sent him back to Constantinople to be blinded by hot pig iron on his return and sent to exile instead. Turkish and Islamic presence in Anatolia was pretty strong before then but that defeat gave Seljuks so much traction. Sidenote with Alp Arslan: He got killed due to what I can only describe as death by . His head vizier and famous philosopher/statesman Nizam-ul-Mulk (Rough translation: Order of the State) got assassinated by Hassan Sabbah and considered one of the most prolific ones if not the one.quote:He was obliged to surrender, however, and was carried as a prisoner before the sultan, who condemned him to death. Yussuf, in desperation, drew his dagger and rushed upon the sultan. Alp Arslan, who took great pride in his reputation as an archer, motioned to his guards not to interfere. He drew his bow, but his foot slipped, the arrow glanced aside, and he received the assassin's dagger in his chest. The second significant defeat against Seljuks was Battle of Miryakefalon where Byzantine army got MLG360Noscoped in an ambush by Kılıj Arslan (Sword Lion). Though it wasn't too big of a defeat and they defeated Seljuk the next year it's been touted as Turkey Numba One! event in schools. Byzantine Empire was basically a coalition (that term is used very loosely) of feudal Lords and noble families who would rather side with Turks (Seljuks, Ottomans and other major Beyliks) than to let their rivals gain power. By the time Ottomans established in Western Anatolia, they've been through so many poo poo including Crusades, 4th Crusade, Mongol Invasion pushing Turkic tribes and Khwaremi remnants further into Anatolia, Timurids (though Tamerlane wasn't too much of an enemy to Byzantium as Bayezid was but him taking İzmir / Smyrna from the Knights of St. John was an indirect blow to sea trade in Aegean and Mediterranean. Civil unrest, tanked economy, those gosh darn Venetians tryna steal their ducats, plague and getting raided the gently caress out by some horsey bois definitely sucked. It's argued that if Tamerlane didn't attack Bayezid, the fall of the city would've been much earlier. I have some suggested read for nerds out there: Halil Inalcık History of Ottoman Empire 1300-1600 He was an emeritus professor in Chicago University and is fluent in like seventy billion languages and pretty much the scholar when it came to Ottoman history, social and economic life. He had incredibly well-researched books in English and even more in Turkish. I legit felt sad when he died in 2016. Most of these books can ve found somewhere and some of them are in Kindle. quote:"The Policy of Mehmed II toward the Greek Population of Istanbul and the Byzantine Buildings of the City" (1968)[18] Thats pretty much from top of my head about the subject and god know I have forgot or flat out made mistakes but hashtag yolo. Galewolf fucked around with this message at 19:37 on May 31, 2020 |
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May 31, 2020 19:21
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Galewolf posted:Turkish and Islamic presence in Anatolia was pretty strong before then but that defeat gave Seljuks so much traction. Only really on the fringes. The frontier between the Byzantine Empire and the Islamic World had been pretty stable for about century or so when the Seljuk Turks began migrating and seizing power over remnants and various successor states of the Abbasid Empire. Manzikert essentially destroyed the Byzantine Anatolian armies and opened the floodgates for Seljuk conquest and settlement of the central Anatolian plateau. Even when the Byzantines made a recovery aided by the first couple of Crusades under the Komemnos emperors, they were never able to push the Seljuks off the plateau, as early as the 12th century Western writers were referring to central Anatolia as "Turcia", contrasted with western Anatolia which was "Romania". The Byzantines sort of seem to have miscalculated and underestimated the Seljuk Turks, in a cultural sense. They seriously seem to have believed that they could be assimilated and turned into Christian subjects. It's even doubtful if they truly understood them as Muslims in the same sense as the Arabs they had fought earlier. They attempted to woo and court them much the same as they had with the Rus and the Bulgars, giving lavish gifts, inviting dignitatries to Constantinople to see the sights and marrying off Byzantine princesses to Seljuk notables. But it's important to remember that the (Oghuz) Turks had very much converted to Islam on their own terms back in the 9th and 10th centuries and had effectively constructed a unique identiy Islamic-Turkish identity that held pretty strong and in turn by the 13th century or so had actually succeeded in assimilating the majority of the Christian Greek-speaking peasantry of Central Anatolia into Turkish-speaking Muslims. The Crusaders' impressions of the Turks and the Byzantines are kind of interesting (and the Byzantines nurtured similar hopes with the Normans of Sicily as they did with the Seljuk Turks and did not succeed against them either, those two together with eventually Venice were really constant thorns in Byzantium's side) in that right from the First Crusade the Franks regard the Byzantines as cowardly, duplicitious schemers who intend to use their military power (and lives) for their own benefit (a grievance was Nicea, where the Byzantines secretly negotiated with the Seljuk garrison to organize a surrender and moved in to occupy the city under the cover of night order to avoid a sack), and the Turks while enemies and infidels were admired and respected for their military capabilities (there's a weird bit in the Gesta Francorum where the author seems to theorize that if they could only cross-breed Franks wtih Turks they would have the perfect soldiers). This held true to the end of Byzantium and the crusading period, there was a quote I once read that I'll have to paraphrase from memory where a Western writer says of the Turks "they do not hate us so much for they do not truly fear us, while the schismatic Greek fear and hate us with all their hearts" (or something along those lines). Randarkman fucked around with this message at 20:18 on May 31, 2020 |
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May 31, 2020 20:15
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Mods change name to the turk thread
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May 31, 2020 21:42
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Milo and POTUS posted:Mods change name to the turk thread The Byzantine thread has fallen victim to external attacks and internal disunity, and has become the Turk thread. Despite briefly being the Venetian thread.
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May 31, 2020 23:35
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Tree Bucket posted:The Byzantine thread has fallen victim to external attacks and internal disunity, and has become the Turk thread. Despite briefly being the Venetian thread. Did anyone post cool shite about Venice, because the Venetian republic was a pretty interesting place. Even though actually holding office was restricted to the nobility there was great emphasis on all citizens having a stake in the city. This for instance resulted in Venetian trades and crafts being protected and guaranteed good wages and high prices for their goods, but they were also extremely protective of their trade and craft secrets (Venetian glassware for instance was highly sought after) so the state had a ccadre of executioners/assassins on hand to track down and murder any who left the city to practice outside of Venice in case they'd leak their secrets to the craftsmen of other cities. Also while Venice was highly republican and very inclusive in terms of citizenship for the time, laws were often very Draconian and punishments were typically carried out in secret as people were simply disappeared in the night to later turn up dead in the canals or a back-alley. It was simply how things were done there.
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May 31, 2020 23:59
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All I ever read about the Byzantine Empire was a hopelessly dysfunctional and corrupt state, perpetually in a state of decline, with a hated ruling class that was itself divided scheming against each other. Also a lot about brutal punishments like cutting off of noses and blinding. And yet it some lasted as an independent entity for what, 1,200 years? How the gently caress did it not collapse sooner?
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Jun 1, 2020 01:07
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Ramrod Hotshot posted:All I ever read about the Byzantine Empire was a hopelessly dysfunctional and corrupt state, perpetually in a state of decline, with a hated ruling class that was itself divided scheming against each other. Also a lot about brutal punishments like cutting off of noses and blinding. Closer to 2200. AFAIK there was no real break in the continuity of the roman state since the first lot of kings around (maybe) 750 BC.
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Jun 1, 2020 01:56
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Ramrod Hotshot posted:All I ever read about the Byzantine Empire was a hopelessly dysfunctional and corrupt state, perpetually in a state of decline, with a hated ruling class that was itself divided scheming against each other. Also a lot about brutal punishments like cutting off of noses and blinding. Yeah this is an extremely simplistic and even ignorant take. Weka posted:Closer to 2200. AFAIK there was no real break in the continuity of the roman state since the first lot of kings around (maybe) 750 BC. The Roman state went through several periods of fundamental change, it was still fundamentally recognized as Roman but things were far from static over taht long a lifespan. Also at times using "state" to refer to pre-modern societies and governments, even bureacratic and relatively advanced once like Byzantium does not truly do justice to how different modern states are in their degree of control over people and society for one.
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Jun 1, 2020 02:08
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Randarkman posted:Yeah this is an extremely simplistic and even ignorant take. I absolutely get what he means. What was the source of its stability? A residual respect for the Empire as an institution?
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Jun 1, 2020 02:22
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