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Stalin wanted to acquire as much of Manchuria as possible before the conclusion of the war and forces were being redeployed to that part of the world from the European theatre. The forces involved were massive. In the event the USSR has 1.5 million soldiers versus the 1 million of the Japanese. To this end it directly serves Stalin's interests to prolong the war between Japan and the USSR for as long as possible. (This is the same guy that just watched the Warsaw uprising and let his armies stand idly be as it was ruthlessly suppressed by German forces.) From what I understand the Japanese were somehow delusionally hoping that the USSR would broker some kind of negotiated peace to end the war. The USSR were playing delaying tactics, promising to meet and not and just trying to keep the hope that a negotiated peace was possible for as long as possible. The "Battlefield" documentary series (Leyte Gulf episode) even claims that the USSR warned Japan of the air attack on Formosa, hoping to prolong the war further. (Cannot find a more credible source on this) After the hiroshima bomb was dropped, the Soviet invasion of Japan in Manchuria started 3 days later. There were more than a little shenanigans in Japanese politics at this time with an attempted coup and a wax recording. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C5%ABj%C5%8D_incident Attribution of events in this can be tricky. The US narrative likes to position the fact that dropping the bombs ended the war. Even though in strategic military terms dropping an atomic bomb or the massive bombing raids as were being conducted to destroy Japanese cities varied little. The invasion of Manchuria of 1.5 million soviet soldiers and a certain end to any kind of negotiated peace seems like a more likely reason (to me anyway) as to why Japan surrendered when it did. Although, Stalin at least must have been concerned that Japan would surrender after the first atomic bomb as he invaded Manchuria shortly after. Or the timings might have just been coincidental.
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Apr 24, 2017 05:20
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IIRC the Soviet invasion was timed for the absolute last day to get some sort of agreed-upon concession for joining the war before that date.
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Apr 24, 2017 05:34
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ArchangeI posted:There are a couple of holes with that theory, foremost the fact that the US leaned heavily on the Soviet Union to enter the war in Asia. Stalin demanded supplies and equipment, and only declared war after they had been delivered. The US knew that the Soviets were entering the war, because they asked them to. It makes no sense to ask them to and then try to end the war before they do. Everything you've said is correct, but I don't think it undercuts a US motivation to preempt the Soviet invasion. They certainly wanted them in, because if the invasion of the home islands was going to have to go ahead, you want as many troops as possible busy elsewhere. But if your wonder-weapon has even a possibility of ending the war early, then you don't need a Soviet intervention, because you already have all the keys to victory in your hand, so it's still bonus points to you if you can win before your allies join the fight. BattleMoose posted:Although, Stalin at least must have been concerned that Japan would surrender after the first atomic bomb as he invaded Manchuria shortly after. Or the timings might have just been coincidental. Yeah, the bombs being dropped didn't influence Stalin one bit, the invasion of Manchuria began exactly when he had agreed to begin it at Potsdam. Though there certainly was pressure to get the bombs dropped before then, if possible. If memory serves, the biggest thing holding them back was weather.
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Apr 24, 2017 05:44
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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PittTheElder posted:If memory serves, the biggest thing holding them back was weather. Trinity was July 16th which is about twenty days before Hiroshima. I can't find information on when Little Boy was actually ready to go but Fat Man didn't arrive in Tinian until July 28 where it had to be checked, rechecked, and checked again. I suppose Nagasaki/Kokura could've happened a couple days earlier but that's a pretty expedited schedule. Like I said though, couldn't find information on when Little Boy was ready in my admittedly brief search. I suspect it was ready earlier due to its slightly easier manufacturing and the earlier date of Hiroshima. But Trinity tested the gun design version of Fat Man so maybe not.
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Apr 24, 2017 06:06
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No, Little Boy definitely was an easier weapon to assemble. And yeah the weather delay wasn't long, on the order of 1-2 days if memory serves, but I'd have to go recheck Making of the Atomic Bomb to be sure.
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Apr 24, 2017 07:04
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WW2 Data We get started on German Artillery Projectiles. What colour system did they use? What markings were stamped on the projectiles, and which ones were stencilled? What is the meaning for the numbers after Panzergranate? (Hint: It's not the year!) What marking was used for tropical climates? All that and more at the blog! Jobbo_Fett fucked around with this message at 12:16 on Apr 24, 2017 |
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Apr 24, 2017 11:20
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Jobbo_Fett posted:WW2 Data link appears ded 
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Apr 24, 2017 11:22
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Tias posted:link appears ded Should be fixed
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Apr 24, 2017 12:16
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As has been stated, the key thing to note is that the Atomic Bombs were not dropped as a unique effort to end the war - they should be seen as an escalation of the ongoing strategic bombing campaign, with two bombings close together to demonstrate to the Japanese that the escalation was not a one off. Crucially for the surrender argument, it should be noted that the political decision to deploy the weapons was made by Truman in ~April 1945 and from then until August he gets the occasional update from the military planning teams but crucial decisions are all made by the military. Indeed, Truman is only notified of each actual bombing after the fact, the second time of which he changes the policy so that no more can be dropped without his explicit say-so. So 'did the Atomic bombs force Japan to surrender?' is an interesting question, but it should be placed in a context where the actions of the US government don't particularly indicate that they expected this to be the straw that broke the back of Japanese intransigence. The other problem is that all the contemporaneous Japanese sources lied through their teeth to everyone and themselves both during the war and afterwards. When it's possible to have serious disagreement over whether Hirohito was a passive actor up till the surrender or an enthusiastic driver of imperial policy, it's impossible to ever really know what happened in those meetings.
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Apr 24, 2017 12:23
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BattleMoose posted:This is the same guy that just watched the Warsaw uprising and let his armies stand idly be as it was ruthlessly suppressed by German forces.) Point of fact here though there was an attempt by the Soviet comprised Polish army to relieve Warsaw, and there seems to be disagreement here and a reasonable explanation that the Soviets were at the end of their logistical tether; attempting to liberate Warsaw would've been costly, and perhaps made them vulnerable to a counterattack.
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Apr 24, 2017 12:58
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Or you could let people who would oppose Stalin and the communists after the war die out. I guess Stalin didn't want supply aircraft landing on Russian airfields after they dropped supplies for Warsaw because of a counter-attack or something.
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Apr 24, 2017 13:21
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It can be from both columns. After 3 years of seeing the Germans turn around and smash every Soviet offensive that was even a little over-ambitious any sensible person in Stalin's shoes would have let Bagration stop where planned. On the other hand, Stalin certainly took advantage of the Poles misplaying their hand for the sake of his post-war plans for Europe. Note that the Soviet offensive doesn't get going again after the offensive fails - the advances from August to the end of December are all about gaining ground in the north and south to knock out the Axis minors and cut off AGN.
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Apr 24, 2017 15:07
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Today is Confederate Memorial Day in Alabama and Mississippi. Five other states celebrate it on different days including Louisiana on Wednesday. They're kicking off the week by tearing down four Confederate memorials in New Orleans, which has made racists so salty that the workers tearing them down have to wear masks and non-descript work clothes to avoid retribution. I dunno what the big deal is, this about state rights not rac-  ]Oh. Oh my.
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Apr 24, 2017 16:11
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Should be fixed Still dead Edit: Wait now it works Libluini fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Apr 24, 2017 |
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Apr 24, 2017 16:20
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zoux posted:I dunno what the big deal is, this about state rights not rac- Thats actually not a civil war monument, but the monument to The Battle of Liberty Place. The original monument inscription was even worse, if you can believe it.
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Apr 24, 2017 16:24
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Wikipedia says it was dismantled today? Shame, would have been better to draw a big cock and balls on it or something I think.
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Apr 24, 2017 16:55
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OwlFancier posted:Wikipedia says it was dismantled today? Here's a story on it. The other three slated to come down are honoring RE Lee, PGT Beauregard and Jefferson Davis. Article notes that the city council voted to take them down in 2015, but had to defeat a bunch of legal challenges before they could.
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Apr 24, 2017 17:00
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Part 1: Arriving in South Africa Part 2: The Reality of Combat/Getting Stuck In/WATERSPORTS! Part 3: March Marching Madness/Trench Sniping/CANADIANS! Part 4: Boer Guns, Hunger Marches and Bloody Charges With The Gordon Highlanders Part 5: Occupying Pretoria, Rest And Christmas In South Africa. quote:
The open battle between large concentrated armies phase of the war is over, but the Boer commandos will not surrender despite the states being occupied. New tactics are brought in with railways, signal stations, mounted patrols and block houses to fight and eventually wear down the Boer Commando. Amongst all this the infamous concentration camps pop up and the very property and farms of these men is seized and burnt. The latter elements of this conflict will not be forgotten and would lead to turmoil that will come to cause problems in the coming Great War and the people of South Africa for generations to come. SeanBeansShako fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Apr 24, 2017 |
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Apr 24, 2017 17:19
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Oh jeez. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/24/russians-storm-replica-reichstag-military-disneyland-patriot-park quote:Nearly 2,000 people have taken part in a re-enactment of the 1945 storming of the Reichstag by the Red Army in a “military Disneyland” on the outskirts of Moscow.
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Apr 24, 2017 17:44
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Alchenar posted:The other problem is that all the contemporaneous Japanese sources lied through their teeth to everyone and themselves both during the war and afterwards. When it's possible to have serious disagreement over whether Hirohito was a passive actor up till the surrender or an enthusiastic driver of imperial policy, it's impossible to ever really know what happened in those meetings. Seriously, the decision making processes going on within the Japanese government are fascinating. I keep hoping that maybe there's still records of all this stuff that historians will get to access one day, but something tells me the same contemporaneous actors would have destroyed them all.
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Apr 24, 2017 17:45
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feedmegin posted:Point of order, 10 shillings was 120 pence, or half of a pound. This wasn't one of those crazy bastardised New Shillings I recall from my childhood I asked our Historian who originally transcribed these diaries we've got and the man himself hasn't got a clue. It certainly wasn't him with the evidence above what with his age being at least in his seventies. There doesn't appear to be a name at all on the other ones. I must find out who did the hard work though! Fangz posted:Oh jeez. The most worrying part of all this is that it isn't the Nazi Reichstag building.
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Apr 24, 2017 17:54
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PittTheElder posted:Seriously, the decision making processes going on within the Japanese government are fascinating. I keep hoping that maybe there's still records of all this stuff that historians will get to access one day, but something tells me the same contemporaneous actors would have destroyed them all. There's probably still some incredibly dank stuff that the imperial household agency will never, ever, ever let see the light of day.
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Apr 24, 2017 17:56
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SeanBeansShako posted:The most worrying part of all this is that it isn't the Nazi Reichstag building. It seems more embarrassingly immature than annoying. Makes me wonder how the Daily Mail would re-organise an re-enactment.
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Apr 24, 2017 18:01
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It reminds me of kiddie Peter The Great playing soldier, which was super serious reinacment that actually got a few children of nobles killed.
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Apr 24, 2017 18:56
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Fangz posted:It seems more embarrassingly immature than annoying. Makes me wonder how the Daily Mail would re-organise an re-enactment. Reverse dunkirk to go capture calais or something.
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Apr 24, 2017 18:58
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Nah, It'd be the Victorian version of Waterloo.
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Apr 24, 2017 18:58
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SeanBeansShako posted:It reminds me of kiddie Peter The Great playing soldier, which was super serious reinacment that actually got a few children of nobles killed. Always have your army classified as an after school club for tax reasons.
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Apr 24, 2017 19:28
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SeanBeansShako posted:The most worrying part of all this is that it isn't the Nazi Reichstag building. idk I think the resemblance to the current glass dome is unintentional, now the original Reichstag looked like this  but in 1945 it war reduced to this  which isn't far from this  but also not too far from this, so I can see the confusion. 
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Apr 24, 2017 19:31
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SeanBeansShako posted:Nah, It'd be the Victorian version of Waterloo. Waterloo except Wellington defeats *both* the French and the Prussians. Nenonen posted:idk I think the resemblance to the current glass dome is unintentional, now the original Reichstag looked like this I think it's still a bit more like the modern building, since it's missing the statue on the front of the roof.
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Apr 24, 2017 19:50
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It's a pretty cut-rate model of either building.
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Apr 24, 2017 19:58
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zoux posted:Today is Confederate Memorial Day in Alabama and Mississippi. Five other states celebrate it on different days including Louisiana on Wednesday. Not quite right. Louisiana is June 3, which is a state holiday but not actually a day off even for state employees.
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Apr 24, 2017 20:11
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:It's a pretty cut-rate model of either building.
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Apr 24, 2017 20:18
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SeanBeansShako posted:It reminds me of kiddie Peter The Great playing soldier, which was super serious reinacment that actually got a few children of nobles killed. Could you make a longer post about this?
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Apr 24, 2017 20:21
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ulmont posted:Not quite right. Louisiana is June 3, which is a state holiday but not actually a day off even for state employees. My mistake. Also, in looking at the history of that memorial I posted earlier, the white supremacy language was added to it in the 30's and in the 70's they erected a monument next to it that basically said "we don't agree with that monument".
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Apr 24, 2017 20:22
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I mean people reenact Picket's Charge at Gettysburg itself here in the US, soooooo
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Apr 24, 2017 20:24
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Acebuckeye13 posted:I mean people reenact Picket's Charge at Gettysburg itself here in the US, soooooo They should've re-enacted the taking of the Reichstag in Berlin, where it used to be.
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Apr 24, 2017 20:26
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Fangz posted:Makes me wonder how the Daily Mail would re-organise an re-enactment. A bunch of fat white dudes in red coats shooting minorities. 
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Apr 24, 2017 20:58
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So basically fox hunting parties taken the next logical step?
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Apr 24, 2017 21:35
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Pontius Pilate posted:But Trinity tested the gun design version of Fat Man so maybe not. That's kind of incorrect, Trinity was a test of an implosion weapon, on the exact same principle as Fat Man. There was a design for a gun type bomb using plutonium (which is the closest thing I can think of to a gun type Fat Man, it was called Thin Man), but it wouldn't have been workable without an obscenely large projectile velocity (and long bomb), as plutonium-240 contamination would have made it start fissioning to early and fizzle.
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Apr 24, 2017 23:05
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Fangz posted:Oh jeez. I actually think this is cool.
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Apr 24, 2017 23:06
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