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I have to wonder what you'd consider a "victory". I think it's entirely plausible at this point that the Ukrainians may be able to get out of this with their sovereignty intact. Is that a victory? FWIW in my book Finland lost the Winter War, but they did get to keep their sovereignty. According to mainstream media, the negotiations in Turkey may actually be going somewhere, and even a temporary ceasefire probably favors the defender. You can sneer at Bellingcat all you want but it's pretty much indisputable fact that the Russians have made basically zero progress in over a week. They haven't been able to defeat encircled Ukrainian formations (in facts the pockets seem to be expanding), they can't protect their supply lines and they certainly aren't conducting any major offensives. It's starting to develop into a stalemate at this point and both sides are digging in. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Mar 20, 2022 |
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Mar 20, 2022 22:45
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This dude described the Ukrainian army as being like the Dirlewanger brigades. When you’re talking about radical leftists eating up Russian propaganda, that’s exactly what it’s like. The situation unfolding repeatedly in a different way than what is constantly parroted by pro Russia western sources is seemingly not enough to discredit them.
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Mar 20, 2022 23:46
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it does help that the entirety of the mainstream press has made overt propaganda for their preferred side their mission, making it extremely difficult to get any kind of reliable information on the conflict
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Mar 20, 2022 23:54
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TheFluff posted:
It's the mudseason. In WW2 the fighting essentially stopped in autumn and early spring because all the melting snow or rainfall would make most of the terrain unpassable, and roads were easy to ambush at etc. This war has turned to a siege conflict where Ukraine can't stop russian artillery from shelling them, while the russians can't have a real go at taking a city without forcing themselves through defended chokepoints. Let us not forget that the US conquest of Iraq in 2003 took five weeks, and that was on bone dry country with limited vegetation and complete air superiority. Even then they had traffic jams along major iraqi highways. My bet is on a settlement before summer when the Russian army can actually conduct operations for real. Postorder Trollet89 fucked around with this message at 23:58 on Mar 20, 2022 |
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Mar 20, 2022 23:55
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Kamrat posted:But does all M-voters want to join NATO? I think this will have a chance of splitting the party, I don't know if it's enough to make a dent however. In the long list of political issues, joining NATO is no dealbreaker. Compared to gang violence, the cost of electricity or gas, joining NATO is a non issue and I would assume this applies to most other parties (except V or MP). Most people realise that the so called Swedish neutrality have never existed.
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Mar 21, 2022 06:32
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TheFluff posted:I have to wonder what you'd consider a "victory". A victory would be not ceding any territory. TheFluff posted:You can sneer at Bellingcat all you want Thanks, I appreciate it. fnox posted:This dude described the Ukrainian army as being like the Dirlewanger brigades. No I did not. Stop lying. I was quite explicitly talking about Azov. Maybe check out some videos of what they're presently doing to suspected "saboteurs", "looters", etc. (i.e., Russian speakers), or read the OHCHR reports on their activities. My entire complaint was that weapons we finance will be distributed to these types. SplitSoul fucked around with this message at 07:25 on Mar 21, 2022 |
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Mar 21, 2022 07:05
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I wish Mette Frederiksen would ban discussing Ukraine in the Scandinavia thread.
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Mar 21, 2022 07:44
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fnox posted:When you’re talking about radical leftists eating up Russian propaganda, that’s exactly what it’s like. Could we avoid litigating Z-STAN posting outside the Ukraine conflict thread please? ^^^ præcis
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Mar 21, 2022 07:46
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 SplitSoul posted:But perhaps we are straying too far from the subject of crushing dissent, Putin style, in Scandinavia.
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Mar 21, 2022 09:06
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SplitSoul posted:A victory would be not ceding any territory. Lying? Maybe check out some videos on what is presently being done to civilians suspected of doing absolutely nothing but existing in occupied territory by Russia because this was what you were saying around that same time. For someone who's very, very concerned about fascism you sure don't give a poo poo about civilians getting slaughtered by militaristic, imperialist aggression if they inconvenience your political posture. SplitSoul posted:Are you honestly convinced that Putin intends to exterminate the population or something? SplitSoul posted:There's no realistic outcome where Ukraine doesn't eventually get crushed, it's just a matter of how long it will take. I don't see any indication that he wants to annex the entire country or get bogged down in endless insurgency like the U.S. Should the government stop you from saying things that are empirically wrong? No. Whatever sources are feeding you this poo poo though? It's probably a good idea for people to know who's paying them, so they can understand their bias and are better informed.
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Mar 21, 2022 10:09
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SplitSoul posted:If they really believe it in their hearts, they can win? It worked for Vietnam and twice for Afghanistan. The price was terrible and the state was/is crippled for decades but they did prevent a lasting victory on the terms of the vastly superior military power.
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Mar 21, 2022 10:12
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fnox posted:Lying? Yes, you are lying, I never called the Ukranian army Dirlewanger Brigades, I used the expression specifically about the neo-nazis embedded within the national guard in continuation of my argument that we should not be arming neo-nazis. You know this already, because it was in reply to your own post. If I honestly believed that to be true, you would actually be seeing me cheer on Putin and not just feebly pretending I did, instead of maintaining that Ukraine has every right to defend itself, which you apparently glossed over in your McCarthyite fervor. fnox posted:Should the government stop you from saying things that are empirically wrong? No. Whatever sources are feeding you this poo poo though? It's probably a good idea for people to know who's paying them, so they can understand their bias and are better informed. If Putin is attempting to exterminate the Ukranian populace he's doing a pretty poor job of it so far, if that is supposedly (state-approved) "empirically true", I'll grant you that. Zudgemud posted:It worked for Vietnam and twice for Afghanistan. The price was terrible and the state was/is crippled for decades but they did prevent a lasting victory on the terms of the vastly superior military power. Yeah, not really excellent choices if you're arguing in favour of sparing Ukranian civilians, which has been my point the entire time. SplitSoul fucked around with this message at 11:48 on Mar 21, 2022 |
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Mar 21, 2022 11:42
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SplitSoul posted:Yes, you are lying, I never called the Ukranian army Dirlewanger Brigades, I used the expression specifically about the neo-nazis embedded within the national guard in continuation of my argument that we should not be arming neo-nazis. You know this already, because it was in reply to your own post. If I honestly believed that to be true, you would actually be seeing me cheer on Putin and not just feebly pretending I did, instead of maintaining that Ukraine has every right to defend itself, which you apparently glossed over in your McCarthyite fervor. McCarthyite, oh please, being wrong doesn’t make you a persecuted class. For someone who’s not cheering for Putin you sure love repeating exactly what he wants people to say. Sweden and other Scandinavian countries armed the Ukrainian army, which is overwhelmingly not neo nazis, and Ukraine is a sovereign, democratic nation that is being attacked and annexed by an autocratic, militaristic government that deems Ukrainian identity to be nonexistent. Those are the facts of the matter. How much of a loving ghoul do you have to be to say that Putin is doing a poor job of exterminating the Ukrainian populace? What, indiscriminate bombing of urban centers, with thermobaric weapons and cruise missiles, triggering the largest mass migration in Europe since the Yugoslavian wars, that doesn’t seem like an extermination policy to you? This affects Sweden directly, even if the Ukrainians were to do as you want them to and lay down their arms, let Russian tanks roll over them, those displaced people would still come to us, they wouldn’t have a home anymore to return to, and it’d be our fault to not give them the help they requested. fnox fucked around with this message at 12:53 on Mar 21, 2022 |
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Mar 21, 2022 12:48
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 fnox posted:McCarthyite, oh please, being wrong doesn’t make you a persecuted class. For someone who’s not cheering for Putin you sure love repeating exactly what he wants people to say. Sweden and other Scandinavian countries armed the Ukrainian army, which is overwhelmingly not neo nazis, and Ukraine is a sovereign, democratic nation that is being attacked and annexed by an autocratic, militaristic government that deems Ukrainian identity to be nonexistent. Those are the facts of the matter. From the very beginning I've said (in chronological order) the invasion isn't justified, that the Ukrainians have the right and prerogative to fight the invaders, that I indeed completely understand the inclination even if I think they'll lose, that nobody ITT supports Putin or the invasion nor is against providing some form of aid to Ukraine, that I'm not opposed to sanctions, that I followed Grozny being turned to rubble as it happened, and finally that my wish is to see as few dead Ukrainian civilians as possible. Extremely pro-Putin talking points, obviously. fnox posted:How much of a loving ghoul do you have to be to say that Putin is doing a poor job of exterminating the Ukrainian populace? What, indiscriminate bombing of urban centers, with thermobaric weapons and cruise missiles, triggering the largest mass migration in Europe since the Yugoslavian wars, that doesn’t seem like an extermination policy to you? No, because I understand words. SplitSoul fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Mar 21, 2022 |
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Mar 21, 2022 13:29
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Aside from this being obvious propaganda, isn't it just factually wrong that NATO is doing any collaboration outside of military stuff (including buying American merchandise)? Like, this seems to imply that NATO is the same as the general Western free trade whatever, when in reality, it's just a military alliance, including Turkey who definitely don't have full access to collaboration with the other NATO members.
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Mar 21, 2022 17:45
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Double murder on a school in Malmö, apparently a student killed two school employees. What a horrorshow. 
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Mar 22, 2022 01:37
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BonHair posted:This is especially infuriating when property taxes have been hollowed out for years because they've been locked at 2001 property levels or so. And now they're gonna update the values but keep the total revenue the same as last year by lowering the tax rate.
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Mar 22, 2022 01:47
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evil_bunnY posted:TAX ME GODDAMNIT.
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Mar 22, 2022 04:05
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BigglesSWE posted:Double murder on a school in Malmö, apparently a student killed two school employees. What a horrorshow. And the rest plays out with a tedious inevitability: racists hear about violence at a Malmö school and immediately start ranting about how immigration is tearing the country apart. Culprit turns out to be a white guy. Racists quietly slink off to find more brown people, imaginary or otherwise, to get mad about.
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Mar 22, 2022 11:23
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Beeswax posted:And the rest plays out with a tedious inevitability: racists hear about violence at a Malmö school and immediately start ranting about how immigration is tearing the country apart. Culprit turns out to be a white guy. Racists quietly slink off to find more brown people, imaginary or otherwise, to get mad about. Yeah it's just next to where I live. Again it seems to be the sadly typical kind of school attack: young white guy with mental instability that school has been warning about several times before the actual attack without proper mental care being involved. Not surprisinly, after the identity started to leak, the online racists are now feverishly trying to find out if he has romani connection because of his last name, which is a rather common Swedish name that some romani groups adopted a few generations ago. lilljonas fucked around with this message at 11:39 on Mar 22, 2022 |
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Mar 22, 2022 11:34
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lilljonas posted:Yeah it's just next to where I live. Again it seems to be the sadly typical kind of school attack: young white guy with mental instability that school has been warning about several times before the actual attack without proper mental care being involved. Latin seems such an odd school for this among the gymnasiums in Malmö. Back in the days it was dominated by girls and considered a nice school with well adjusted pupils. Nothing about it sticks out as specific to Malmö, no guns, white perpetrator ( especially given the percentages in Malmö), so it could have happened anywhere as we have seen before. I have teacher friends in Malmö, who are probably quite shocked now.
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Mar 22, 2022 12:08
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Cardiac posted:Latin seems such an odd school for this among the gymnasiums in Malmö. Back in the days it was dominated by girls and considered a nice school with well adjusted pupils. It doesn't fit in the trope of "scary Muslim terrorist" no, but it does fit in with the more common actual pattern of attacks (misfit white middle class guy with mental problems). But yeah, it's a testament to how we're misled to believe that there are spaces that are safe from horrible events because they're bastions of middle class, while youth mental health problems is found across the spectrum of society.
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Mar 22, 2022 12:33
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Cardiac posted:Nothing about it sticks out as specific to Malmö, no guns, white perpetrator
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Mar 22, 2022 13:20
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I'm off to the shops, anyone want anything?
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Mar 22, 2022 14:23
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Beeswax posted:I'm off to the shops, anyone want anything? Yes please.
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Mar 22, 2022 14:52
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lilljonas posted:It doesn't fit in the trope of "scary Muslim terrorist" no, but it does fit in with the more common actual pattern of attacks (misfit white middle class guy with mental problems). But yeah, it's a testament to how we're misled to believe that there are spaces that are safe from horrible events because they're bastions of middle class, while youth mental health problems is found across the spectrum of society. Yeah, exactly. Well put. This one hits relatively close to home, since one of the victims is likely just one or two people away, based on local information. Mental health issues have been a non priority for the last thirty years or so.
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Mar 22, 2022 16:48
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https://twitter.com/moderaterna/status/1506266450612338700?s=20&t=eCi2f4IMU6Ci2GS-Iwkbug Is this moderaterna just being dumb, or a signal to the wealthy donors that they're open to some very large leaps to the right?
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Mar 22, 2022 20:58
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Feliday Melody posted:https://twitter.com/moderaterna/status/1506266450612338700?s=20&t=eCi2f4IMU6Ci2GS-Iwkbug Yes
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Mar 22, 2022 21:15
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Feliday Melody posted:https://twitter.com/moderaterna/status/1506266450612338700?s=20&t=eCi2f4IMU6Ci2GS-Iwkbug Recent polls are showing that while Moderaterna are not losing that many voters, they are losing their stranglehold on "owning" several political topics. This is something political wonks love to focus on, so I guess they want to really makes sure to hammer home that they hate poor people?
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Mar 22, 2022 21:15
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Feliday Melody posted:https://twitter.com/moderaterna/status/1506266450612338700?s=20&t=eCi2f4IMU6Ci2GS-Iwkbug Remember when they tried to rebrand themselves "The workers party", now they're doing the opposite, at least it's more honest. 
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Mar 22, 2022 21:22
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Feliday Melody posted:https://twitter.com/moderaterna/status/1506266450612338700?s=20&t=eCi2f4IMU6Ci2GS-Iwkbug As an occasional M voter that poo poo is enough to turn me into a card carrying Vpkare. Just stay S lite you idiots.
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Mar 22, 2022 21:30
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M was never not dumb.
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Mar 22, 2022 21:45
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My favourite response: https://twitter.com/brokep/status/1506317753514438665?s=21
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Mar 23, 2022 04:24
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https://twitter.com/kaptenynkrygg/status/1023941407105593345
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Mar 23, 2022 12:17
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Gat drat I hate that Thatcher quote. The first time I saw it I had to be convinced it was meant unironically, because it’s so colossally stupid it takes actual effort to articulate how wrong it is.
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Mar 23, 2022 13:47
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It makes perfect sense for M to start brandishing “gotcha” bytes from notable right wing ghouls in the sense that the Swedish right has decided to go all in on culture war nonsense, as they see the American right employ it. Which is why EBT started touting Blue Lives Matter talking points after the police murder a while back. When your actual substantial politics can’t be reliably sold (“gently caress the poor” has bad optics, after all) you make up your own dumb issues to rally around, like “socialism”, whatever the hell that means in the modern context. Hanif Bali already made his obligatory edgelord transphobic take in relations to the big todo Americans are currently making of trans people in sports. We’ll get a lot more of those “wink wink whistle whistle” bullshit come September.
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Mar 23, 2022 14:08
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Hanif Bali almost ran me over and wasn't even in his booster seat.
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Mar 23, 2022 17:53
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In today's edition of Two Bad Persons Fighting: Lars Adakutsson (retired newscaster/old school anti-abortion KD politician) leaves his political assignments due to Busch being a bully. https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/5G4Mem/lars-adaktusson-lamnar-kd-post
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Mar 24, 2022 13:34
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Lars Adaktussons Frisyr/Bette Davis eyes posted:han har ett mäktigt hår Sadly not even his frisyr is graceful these days.
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Mar 24, 2022 13:46
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I get the feeling EBT tries to run her ship much like Åkesson: der Führerprinzip can NOT be questioned!
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Mar 24, 2022 15:57
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