Canada Housing/Debt: Trust me, I'm a landlord.

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Guest2553: Aug 3, 2012

Joe Oliver tells realtors Ottawa will stay out of housing market because no bubble seen

not gonna lie a little bit of me is looking forward to the ruination that will ensue :unsmigghh:

# ? May 20, 2015 17:53

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# ? May 31, 2024 20:07

Coxswain Balls: Jun 4, 2001

Cultural Imperial posted:

So, no problem here. The debt ratios are ok because Canadians are getting wealthier through their real estate holdings.

How the gently caress do these mongs get jobs, never mind feed themselves? gently caress you Doug Porter. gently caress you Philip Cross

Government running a deficit: Irresponsible and unthinkable. You wouldn't balance a household budget by going into debt, that's just foolish.
Actual household going into debt: Interest rates are low right now, and that debt can be used to create wealth and spur productivity.

Ha ha ha loving hell.

# ? May 20, 2015 18:12

triplexpac: Mar 24, 2007; Suck it
Two tears in a bucket
And then another thing
I'm not the one they'll try their luck with
Hit hard like brass knuckles
See your face through the turnbuckle dude
I got no love for you

Guest2553 posted:

not gonna lie a little bit of me is looking forward to the ruination that will ensue

quote:

The government, which has made four changes to housing finance rules since 2008 to cool booming sales and rising prices, is satisfied with market dynamics today and isn�t seeking further reform, Oliver said.

So what, house prices keep going up up up but they decide "our job here is done"

Maybe I'm just biased because I live in Toronto.

# ? May 20, 2015 18:14

Juul-Whip: Mar 10, 2008

Coxswain Balls posted:

Government running a deficit: Irresponsible and unthinkable. You wouldn't balance a household budget by going into debt, that's just foolish.
Actual household going into debt: Interest rates are low right now, and that debt can be used to create wealth and spur productivity.

Ha ha ha loving hell.

Consumers and their desires, not government, are the engine of the economy.

# ? May 20, 2015 18:21

Guest2553: Aug 3, 2012

Maybe the resulting crash is a 'gently caress you' to pockets of liberal voters? :iiam:

I could believe it's an attempt to create the conditions for an economic hulk smash before an election loss which can then be blamed on the ruling party a few years down the road during the next election bid, but that takes a level of foresight I don`t believe most politicians posses.

I just don't want my increased TFSA limits to go away :ohdear:

# ? May 20, 2015 18:22

Postess with the Mostest: Apr 4, 2007; Arabian nights
'neath Arabian moons
A fool off his guard
could fall and fall hard
out there on the dunes

Coxswain Balls posted:

Government running a deficit: Irresponsible and unthinkable. You wouldn't balance a household budget by going into debt, that's just foolish.
Actual household going into debt: Interest rates are low right now, and that debt can be used to create wealth and spur productivity.

Ha ha ha loving hell.

The paper basically ended on exactly the opposite of that.

quote:

Most Canadians are managing their debt levels responsibly, with no evident strain to either their incomes or their balance sheets. Government is the only sector of our economy that has a structural problem managing its debt, notably the provinces, where debt levels continue to rise even before the largest demands of an aging population are made on our antiquated health care system.

# ? May 20, 2015 19:13

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

Hahaha

# ? May 20, 2015 19:17

Juul-Whip: Mar 10, 2008

"our antiquated healthcare system"

loving death by guillotine for every Fraser fellow

# ? May 20, 2015 19:18

Jan: Feb 27, 2008; The disruptive powers of excessive national fecundity may have played a greater part in bursting the bonds of convention than either the power of ideas or the errors of autocracy.

THC posted:

"our antiquated healthcare system"

I suppose the only solution to this is to privatize health care, right, Mr. Philip Cross!?

# ? May 20, 2015 20:12

blah_blah: Apr 15, 2006

Baronjutter posted:

A mortgage isn't a debt it's an investment. This is seriously the way many many people think. It doen't matter how big your mortgage is because prices always go up, so in the end you will always make money. it's no different than forcing your self to invest X dollars a month in a retirement plan, in fact it's better because you can't live inside a retirement plan as you pay into it. Renting is like living in the hollowed out husk of your long dead dignity.

Withering sarcasm aside, most of the middle class was a lot better off when forced savings through a mortgage and pension were the norm.

# ? May 20, 2015 21:27

Juul-Whip: Mar 10, 2008

Jan posted:

I suppose the only solution to this is to privatize health care, right, Mr. Philip Cross!?

No, no, not privatize. They just want a private option, because the idea that sick people deserve good, timely health care whether they're rich or not is so quaint and old-fashioned.

# ? May 20, 2015 21:32

brucio: Nov 22, 2004

Here's some video of the guy getting lobbed softballs by the CBC

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/household-debt-is-under-control-in-canada-fraser-institute-says-1.3080638

# ? May 21, 2015 02:17

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

lol what the gently caress is shopify? I can't even be bothered to loving google it because who loving cares about a canadian tech ipo

# ? May 21, 2015 03:43

Postess with the Mostest: Apr 4, 2007; Arabian nights
'neath Arabian moons
A fool off his guard
could fall and fall hard
out there on the dunes

Cultural Imperial posted:

lol what the gently caress is shopify? I can't even be bothered to loving google it because who loving cares about a canadian tech ipo

Easy to use shopping cart software.

# ? May 21, 2015 03:46

I would blow Dane Cook: Dec 26, 2008

It's like spotify but with shops - actual sales pitch

# ? May 21, 2015 03:46

Femtosecond: Aug 2, 2003

They're listing on the TSX and NY Stock Exchange. What does that mean? Should I buy the NYSE one for when the Canadian economy implodes?

# ? May 21, 2015 04:30

blah_blah: Apr 15, 2006

Cultural Imperial posted:

lol what the gently caress is shopify? I can't even be bothered to loving google it because who loving cares about a canadian tech ipo

Still better than hootsuite

# ? May 21, 2015 04:58

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

more like poopsuite

# ? May 21, 2015 05:01

Lexicon: Jul 29, 2003; I had a beer with Stephen Harper once and now I like him.

Far and away the worst thing about Hootsuite is being subjected to Ryan Holmes' interminable thinkpieces every other week by the entirety of the adoring Canadian media establishment.

# ? May 21, 2015 05:32

blah_blah: Apr 15, 2006

Lexicon posted:

Far and away the worst thing about Hootsuite is being subjected to Ryan Holmes' interminable thinkpieces every other week by the entirety of the adoring Canadian media establishment.

Well, it's probably illegally hiring unpaid interns after receiving over 100m in VC funding. But that's up there.

# ? May 21, 2015 10:03

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

I set up a Shopify site for a client of mine. It didn't suck very much, which is more than I can say for HootSuite.

# ? May 21, 2015 10:18

sbaldrick: Jul 19, 2006; Driven by Hate

Cultural Imperial posted:

lol what the gently caress is shopify? I can't even be bothered to loving google it because who loving cares about a canadian tech ipo

Shopify is a fairly interesting company that does what it does pretty well, but it's not cutting edge high tech. It's just trying to make selling poo poo easy.

# ? May 21, 2015 18:15

Lexicon: Jul 29, 2003; I had a beer with Stephen Harper once and now I like him.

Welp http://www.scmp.com/comment/blogs/article/1804916/something-grotesquely-wrong-vancouvers-housing-market-and-time

Ian Young posted:

Something is grotesquely wrong with Vancouver�s housing market, and the time for denialism is over

The realisation that something is grotesquely awry with Vancouver�s housing market has reached a tipping point.

Fuelled by the special sauce of Chinese wealth - and good old Fear of Missing Out - prices are now at levels that have decoupled from the local economy, with an average detached price of about C$1.4 million (HK$8.9 million). So far, so normal for Vancouver.

But the past couple of months have witnessed a kind of awakening.

Eveline Xia - herself a Chinese immigrant - helped get the ball rolling with her very first tweet on March 18, in which the 29-year-old environmental scientist created the hashtag #donthave1million, and posted a plaintive cry about the drain of young Vancouverites being priced out of the city she loves. �To thrive, does @CityofVancouver not need people like you and me?� she asked.

It hit a nerve. Fellow millennials jumped on board #donthave1million, posting their own tales of real estate woe.

Around the same time, a petition sprang up on change.org, demanding that BC Premier Christy Clark and local mayors �restrict foreign investment in Greater Vancouver's residential real estate market�. The petition had about 24,000 supporters as of Wednesday.

The various online and media rumblings will take solid form at a rally for affordable housing in downtown Vancouver on Sunday at noon.

Yet there are still plenty of misunderstandings about the forces at play, on both sides of the debate.

One position states there�s nothing particularly unusual about Vancouver�s housing situation. Yet this neglects the fact that the city�s unaffordability is now globally exceptional, exceeded only by that of Hong Kong.

Foreign money might be a factor, concede some, but it must similarly influence other markets, right? Not really � since immigration data demonstrates that the influx of rich immigrants to Vancouver (80 per cent of them Chinese) is unmatched by any other city in the world, at least in terms of wealth-migration schemes that clearly define asset benchmarks.

Others seek to frame unaffordability as inevitable, since Vancouver is a city of limited land supply. But plenty of other cities are in the same boat: New York and Singapore spring to mind. Both are expensive cities, but Vancouver has left them in the dust in terms of unaffordability. If Vancouver (price/income ratio 10.6) could achieve the affordability of New York (6.1), or Singapore (5.0) I�m betting that Eveline Xia would be dancing down Main Street.

Surely Vancouver has always been unaffordable? A quick check of the stats will show that as recently at 10 years ago, Vancouver�s price/income ratio was in dancing territory, at 5.3.

As for the perennial low-rates argument, pretty much everywhere has low rates. It tells us nothing about what makes Vancouver�s market special.

An exceptional cause must be found for an exceptional situation, and for Vancouver, that can be found quite easily in wealth migration, which exploded in the past decade.

Vancouverites still struggle to grasp the scale of this influx to their modestly-sized city. From 2005-2012, about 45,000 millionaire migrants arrived in Vancouver under just two wealth-determined schemes, the now-defunct Immigrant Investor Programme and the still-running Quebec Immigrant Investor Programme. Let�s put that in perspective. The entire United States only accepted 9,450 wealth migration applications in the same period under its famous EB-5 scheme, likely representing fewer than 30,000 individuals.

So, Vancouver has recently received more wealth-determined migration than any other city in the world, by a long stretch. This, in a city with some of the lowest incomes in Canada.

The flipside to these various misunderstandings is the current focus on Australian-style restrictions on foreign ownership (Canada doesn�t even bother to track foreign ownership, let alone restrict it). Such restrictions might be an admirable goal, but I very much doubt they would have much impact on Vancouver.

That�s because I have not encountered a single real estate purchase in Vancouver that would have definitely been proscribed by restricting �foreign� ownership. Not one. The concept of the foreign investor dominating Vancouver�s market may indeed be a myth, since �foreign� buyers typically have residency rights or dual citizenship in Canada, or are able to make their purchase via a suitably endowed proxy (ie: a spouse or child with residency).

Foreign buyers probably aren�t to blame for Vancouver�s unaffordability. But foreign money probably is. And cracking down on the foreignness of funds will prove much harder than dealing with the foreignness of buyers, even if the will to do so exists.

Another factor often neglected is that a successful �fix� for unaffordability would crush a great many people, probably as many as it helps. In peril would be a real estate and development industry that employs thousands. Anyone who already owns a home would also be at risk. Thousands of elders banking on their homes as a retirement nest egg. Thousands of recent buyers facing the terrifying prospect of negative equity, with mortgages far exceeding the value of their homes.

It�s no surprise the politicians are treading carefully.

Yet it would be a mistake to weigh the issue in cold terms of winners and losers, cost and benefit - because it is a fundamental matter of fairness. Is it fair that so many people have been so vastly enriched, through no great credit of their own, at the expense of so many who have been impoverished, ruined, or simply forced out of their city, through no great fault of their own? The dividing line isn�t one of intelligence, or diligence, or any other worthiness � mainly, it�s a demarcation of age, between those who were old enough to have bought before the wildest market rises, and those who were not.

Wherever you stand on the matter, the time for denialism is over. At the very least, Vancouver deserves its long-overdue debate about the root causes of the unaffordability crisis, and what to do about it.

The bolded paragraph, if true, is a pretty amazing stat. But please, tell me more about how Vancouver's uniquely expensive status in both Canada and the world derives mostly from the locals on loose credit [the same terms of which are available anywhere in the country].

# ? May 21, 2015 18:17

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

Australia's foreign ownership restrictions have done nothing so far. I think that's a good clue.

# ? May 21, 2015 18:27

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

Yeah now that more and more apparent actual stats on foreign money and ownership percentages (something like 50% of houses and 60%+ condos) I'm starting to buy into the whole "RICH CHINESE" are to blame for most of what's wrong with Vancouver (well it's housing market anyways).

# ? May 21, 2015 18:28

Risky Bisquick: Jan 18, 2008; PLEASE LET ME WRITE YOUR VICTIM IMPACT STATEMENT SO I CAN FURTHER DEMONSTRATE THE CALAMITY THAT IS OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM.; Buglord

The solution to the Vancouver problem is to not live in Vancouver :shrug:

Just cut it loose and call it, Hong Kong Far West.

# ? May 21, 2015 18:32

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

Baronjutter posted:

(something like 50% of houses and 60%+ condos)

Citation plz

# ? May 21, 2015 18:32

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

jm20 posted:

The solution to the Vancouver problem is to not live in Vancouver Just cut it loose and call it, Hong Kong Far West.

Everyone who isn't a real-estate speculator should just move out and leave the city Vancouver-themed chinese investment ghost city. They can all go to Prince George and buy 500k houses.

# ? May 21, 2015 18:33

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

quote:

If you have noticed a persistent ringing in your ears lately, take heart as we all are hearing it. It is the sound of government cash registers as they rake in revenue from Vancouver’s record-breaking real estate market.

What you will certainly not hear above the din is any politician saying they will make any changes that could risk driving down housing prices. That is because they are too dependent on the dollars it brings into government coffers.

In you still think that an elected official will come to the rescue of those trying to buy into Vancouver’s hyper-inflated single-family housing market, please note the following.

There are 757 million reasons why the B.C. government will not intervene. That figure represents the total the amount in dollars the government raised in property transfer taxes in the last fiscal year. Buying and selling homes is big business in B.C., and that figure could go as high as $1 billion if 2015 sales projections hold.

There are nearly 1.9 billion reasons why Mayor Gregor Robertson will keep his mouth zipped over double-digit property assessment increases across our city. The City of Vancouver issued $1.88-billion worth of residential permits in 2014. Overall this represents a 77 per cent increase over 2008.

The mayor is consistent in his view that he thinks the city is cash-starved — so why would he dare to turn off the flow of revenue home-building provides? One might surmise then that Robertson’s talk about housing affordability is as empty as the homes he wants citizens to report on a snitch website.

Then there is the thorny politics of home prices. If you are in the market already as a homeowner, chances are you are praying that your real estate investment will continue to appreciate. Many of us lament the loss of affordability, but none of us are likely to respond by selling to the lowest bidder.

Furthermore, homeowners are more likely to vote, and if their home price drops because of political intervention, you can kiss their support goodbye at election time.

Some assert that as long as home prices continue to rise, politicians at city hall have job security. They point to the last time Vancouver experienced any prolonged property price depreciation in 1999 to 2002. It was during that time that the incumbent NPA council was routed by Larry Campbell and COPE.

Rest assured that our mayor and council understand there are political consequences for putting the squeeze on home price values.

This does not mean elected officials are impervious to pressure from citizens. Tens of thousands have already signed a petition at Change.org demanding our politicians restrict foreign investment in our real estate market. They cite similar policies tried in Australia and England to cool — albeit unsuccessfully — spiking real estate prices overseas.

Opposition politicians have naturally seized the issue, although one has to wonder if they would do the same in government. An NDP Member of Parliament is demanding that government provide resources to study the impact of foreign investment in housing.

The terms of reference for this kind of plan alone would be daunting. There are approximately 4,000 municipalities in Canada, and most of them would love to have Vancouver’s revenue growth statistics.

The question is even more basic for the federal government. Why would you use limited tax dollars on a project whose end-goal is to deflate tax revenue from the real estate market?

It is debatable if any plan to curb foreign investment would even work. An Australian study determined that domestic buyers — taking advantage of low interest rates — have overwhelmingly driven up real estate prices in that country.

Do not despair, however, because our politicians can do something about housing affordability: allow more of it to be built.

The laws of supply and demand are no different here in B.C. than anywhere else. We have seen since the increase of development of attached housing that prices of condominiums have levelled off. This is happening in spite of some well-documented involvement of foreign buyers.

Barring a significant increase in interest rates, however, Vancouver’s limited supply of detached homes will continue to appreciate in value. That means we will continue to hear another sound.

The ringing of alarm bells over declining affordability.

mike@mikeklassen.net

@mikeklassen

http://www.vancourier.com/opinion/government-intervention-unlikely-in-vancouver-real-estate-market-1.1941361

You should all know that mike klassen is a loving NPA stooge so take that into account.

# ? May 21, 2015 18:35

Juul-Whip: Mar 10, 2008

Lexicon posted:

Welp http://www.scmp.com/comment/blogs/article/1804916/something-grotesquely-wrong-vancouvers-housing-market-and-time

The bolded paragraph, if true, is a pretty amazing stat. But please, tell me more about how Vancouver's uniquely expensive status in both Canada and the world derives mostly from the locals on loose credit [the same terms of which are available anywhere in the country].

It's a combination of "RICH CHINESE" [and other nationalities] and "locals on loose credit" and other contributing factors, it doesn't have to be just one or the other. Overly focusing on rich immigration, saying it's all the fault of "the Chinese", or demonizing the immigrants themselves for taking the opportunity we've offered them is clearly ignorance and racism.

# ? May 21, 2015 18:37

Risky Bisquick: Jan 18, 2008; PLEASE LET ME WRITE YOUR VICTIM IMPACT STATEMENT SO I CAN FURTHER DEMONSTRATE THE CALAMITY THAT IS OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM.; Buglord

Baronjutter posted:

Everyone who isn't a real-estate speculator should just move out and leave the city Vancouver-themed chinese investment ghost city. They can all go to Prince George and buy 500k houses.

Vancouver is honestly a lost cause for house ownership, I'm looking forward to the day when a dual income family of doctors and lawyers doesn't qualify for a real estate mortgage due to lack of income.

# ? May 21, 2015 18:50

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

jm20 posted:

Vancouver is honestly a lost cause for house ownership, I'm looking forward to the day when a dual income family of doctors and lawyers doesn't qualify for a real estate mortgage due to lack of income.

We've got a long way to go, then, I know people barely making $50k who've been approved for mortgages of $600k+.

You seriously think the banks are turning off that credit faucet before an implosion that makes the US subprime look like a puff of smoke?

FFS, I was getting stuff done at the bank last week and after turning down a credit limit increase to $10k because I lost my job, they became even MORE pushy about getting the increase saying poo poo like how I would need it even more now and what if I needed a safety net. I don't want a safety net with 20% interest, wtf is wrong with these idiots. :psypop:

Rime fucked around with this message at 19:00 on May 21, 2015

# ? May 21, 2015 18:55

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

White trash making 60k year qualify for million dollar mortgages. Just finance your down payment.

# ? May 21, 2015 18:56

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

Just like my rage over the census and scientists being muzzled/threatened I have a similar rage for real-estate and finance stats, or the lack of them. How the gently caress can the city, province, or feds make any sort of coherent policy on housing when all we have are the 2nd hand stats that the realestate industry decides we should see, and a ton of support important things aren't even recorded or tracked?

It should be public knowledge exactly how much of an effect "chinese money" is having on the region. It should be known the exact balance of cash purchases vs mortgages vs incomes vs downpayments. It should also be known where all this foreign money is coming from and any legal/ethical issues with said money.

# ? May 21, 2015 19:00

Juul-Whip: Mar 10, 2008

Baronjutter posted:

Just like my rage over the census and scientists being muzzled/threatened I have a similar rage for real-estate and finance stats, or the lack of them. How the gently caress can the city, province, or feds make any sort of coherent policy on housing when all we have are the 2nd hand stats that the realestate industry decides we should see, and a ton of support important things aren't even recorded or tracked?

It should be public knowledge exactly how much of an effect "chinese money" is having on the region. It should be known the exact balance of cash purchases vs mortgages vs incomes vs downpayments. It should also be known where all this foreign money is coming from and any legal/ethical issues with said money.

They don't care. They don't want to touch it because it could deflate and suddenly we won't have the "richest middle class in the world". They want the property values sky-high so they can keep income taxes low and so boomers can be paper millionaires. It prints money.

# ? May 21, 2015 19:03

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

THC posted:

They don't care. They don't want to touch it because it could deflate and suddenly we won't have the "richest middle class in the world". They want the property values sky-high so they can keep income taxes low and so boomers can be paper millionaires. It prints money.

And when it comes tumbling down they can just shrug and say "How could we have seen this coming, real-estate is unpredictable". Just like Harper not wanting economic or social or environmental stats proving his policies are a disaster the government doesn't want housing stats to prove their policies are a disaster or that they should have had alarm bells ringing years ago.

It's like a nuclear plant's safety policy being to disable the safety systems and silence the alarms then plead ignorance after the meltdown. They don't actually care about the results, just not being blamed in the ensuing disaster.

# ? May 21, 2015 19:06

Risky Bisquick: Jan 18, 2008; PLEASE LET ME WRITE YOUR VICTIM IMPACT STATEMENT SO I CAN FURTHER DEMONSTRATE THE CALAMITY THAT IS OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM.; Buglord

Rime posted:

We've got a long way to go, then, I know people barely making $50k who've been approved for mortgages of $600k+.

You seriously think the banks are turning off that credit faucet before an implosion that makes the US subprime look like a puff of smoke?

FFS, I was getting stuff done at the bank last week and after turning down a credit limit increase to $10k because I lost my job, they became even MORE pushy about getting the increase saying poo poo like how I would need it even more now and what if I needed a safety net. I don't want a safety net with 20% interest, wtf is wrong with these idiots.

Well 600k wont buy you a house in Vancouver, and jobs over 50k in Vancouver are few and far between. When the Vancity crash comes, it will be a sight to behold.

Sucks about your current situation, but the banks trying to scoop you for 20% loans is pretty capitalist right there. You should've replied you already have an account setup at moneymart :laugh:

Cultural Imperial posted:

White trash making 60k year qualify for million dollar mortgages. Just finance your down payment.

:CMHCDOWNS: should be a thing

THC posted:

They don't care. They don't want to touch it because it could deflate and suddenly we won't have the "richest middle class in the world". They want the property values sky-high so they can keep income taxes low and so boomers can be paper millionaires. It prints money.

"...a problem for 'Stephen Harper's granddaughter to solve,' Joe Oliver says"

# ? May 21, 2015 19:08

Franks Happy Place: Mar 15, 2011; It is by weed alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the dank of Sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by weed alone I set my mind in motion.

jm20 posted:

:CMHCDOWNS: should be a thing

# ? May 21, 2015 19:11

tagesschau: Sep 1, 2006; D&D: HASBARA SQUAD
THE SPEECH SUPPRESSOR

Remember: it's "antisemitic" to protest genocide as long as the targets are brown.

Baronjutter posted:

(something like 50% of houses and 60%+ condos)

CMHC posted:

< 3% condos

# ? May 21, 2015 19:14

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# ? May 31, 2024 20:07

Jan: Feb 27, 2008; The disruptive powers of excessive national fecundity may have played a greater part in bursting the bonds of convention than either the power of ideas or the errors of autocracy.

jm20 posted:

The solution to the Vancouver problem is to not live in Vancouver Just cut it loose and call it, Hong Kong Far West.

I have a simpler solution. Change all address numbers to 4. :v:

# ? May 21, 2015 19:15

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