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DACK FAYDEN posted:if you didn't laugh at Bombadil 2: Civil War we can't be friends, I don't make the rules
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Jun 14, 2023 17:51
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my only hope is that video games suck up the worst ideas.
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Jun 14, 2023 17:58
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Gollum was a portent of things to come.
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Jun 14, 2023 20:41
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https://twitter.com/getfiscal/status/1668987627318435840?t=jIDcIjwuE-LK3LQS9vjb1g&s=19
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Jun 15, 2023 05:08
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WoodrowSkillson posted:my only hope is that video games suck up the worst ideas.
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Jun 15, 2023 11:35
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WoodrowSkillson posted:https://twitter.com/getfiscal/status/1668987627318435840?t=jIDcIjwuE-LK3LQS9vjb1g&s=19 GetFiscal joke aside, I still marvel at how well Jackson was able to condense so much backstory into a 5 or 6 minute prologue at the beginning of Fellowship. Hit all the important notes: what the ring is, its origin, how and why it was lost, how it was found again, how it was found again, and why this instrument of armageddon is just chilling with Frodo's crazy rich uncle in the Shire. Nothing extraneous, just right. There's a bit of bloat elsewhere in the trilogy, but man that opening to Fellowship is incredible.
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Jun 15, 2023 14:02
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Don’t remake the LOTR movies, instead, do a horrible MCU cinematic universe of the Silmarillion. You can probably squeeze 10 awful movies out of them, culminating in a two part War of Wrath style cinematic event.
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Jun 15, 2023 20:01
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There were a number of moments in the Peter Jackson movies where I scratched my head at something they added or changed, but one addition that I thought was well thought out, fitting, and well executed was a little moment of Bilbo telling the story of the troll encounter from The Hobbit to a bunch of wide-eyed hobbit children during his birthday party.
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Jun 15, 2023 21:14
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Quinton posted:There were a number of moments in the Peter Jackson movies where I scratched my head at something they added or changed, but one addition that I thought was well thought out, fitting, and well executed was a little moment of Bilbo telling the story of the troll encounter from The Hobbit to a bunch of wide-eyed hobbit children during his birthday party. Yeah there were a lot of nice little touches like this, then you'd have head-scratchers like all the (notoriously xenophobic and reclusive) Lorien elves showing up at Helm's Deep after talking about how the elves were fading and the Age of Man was upon us and they weren't going to come save Man's bacon anymore, they were headed for the exit they have no need to march to war, war marches on their own borders etc etc or making out Faramir to be a dick upon meeting Frodo and Sam. Also having Arwen replace Glorfindel at the Ford I get why (why would Aragorn even bother with her when she's pretty much a non-entity in the books who just makes a pretty flag for him and sends him presents and is Elrond's daughter, she's very much an object of success/prize to be won which does not sit well with modern audiences) but still rubs me the wrong way.
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Jun 15, 2023 22:24
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The worst part of the trilogy is the ghost army that just cleans up the battle of the pellenor.
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Jun 15, 2023 22:26
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I honestly think the elves at helm’s deep thing would have been both better and more faithful if instead it had been Arwen and her brothers plus the Dunedain and some Rivendell elves (if you must)
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Jun 15, 2023 22:27
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Oracle posted:Yeah there were a lot of nice little touches like this, then you'd have head-scratchers like all the (notoriously xenophobic and reclusive) Lorien elves showing up at Helm's Deep after talking about how the elves were fading and the Age of Man was upon us and they weren't going to come save Man's bacon anymore, they were headed for the exit they have no need to march to war, war marches on their own borders etc etc or making out Faramir to be a dick upon meeting Frodo and Sam. The Helm's deep thing is actually a pity, originally they were supposed to be from Rivendell, not Lorien, and led by Arwen. Eventually Jackson decided this weakened Eowyn's plot too much, but they'd already shot all the Helm's Deep scenes with elves in them. So it got changed to Haldir, and Arwen got edited out.
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Jun 15, 2023 22:33
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I like how The Three Hunters chasing the Uruk Hai from the Falls of Rauros to the edge of Fangorn Forest over four days is one of the greatest feats of stamina ever seen in Middle Earth, and then in the movie the Elves of Lothlorien travel half the length of the Misty Mountains and across the Eastfold to Helms Deep in an afternoon.
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Jun 15, 2023 22:34
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The rangers and Elrond's sons already arrive like, just a day or two after Helm's deep, right? just move that up by a few days. You can have Arwen replace her brothers if you want.
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Jun 15, 2023 22:57
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Sylink posted:The worst part of the trilogy is the ghost army that just cleans up the battle of the pellenor. This has always been my vote. Yeah way to just cheapen all the sacrifice you've just finished drumming into everyone's heads, if Aragorn had arrived five minutes sooner you could have saved Theoden and about 5000 soldiers/riders etc Tangentially: anyone know what Olsen's problem is with the Witch-king breaking Gandalf's staff at the gate of Minas Tirith in one of the extended edition scenes? He always gripes about it as his single biggest complaint on a conceptual level with the films, but he doesn't ever explain why exactly. I assume it's a thing about how Gandalf totally outranks him on the scale of Maiar vs wraiths etc, but that seems like a weirdly DBZ-power-levels kind of thing to get hung up on
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Jun 15, 2023 23:10
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cheetah7071 posted:The rangers and Elrond's sons already arrive like, just a day or two after Helm's deep, right? just move that up by a few days. You can have Arwen replace her brothers if you want. Or be accompanied by them, yeah that would make a hell of a lot more sense and be more faithful to the books rather than ‘Lorien out of nowhere from the top rope!’ sweet geek swag posted:The Helm's deep thing is actually a pity, originally they were supposed to be from Rivendell, not Lorien, and led by Arwen. Eventually Jackson decided this weakened Eowyn's plot too much, but they'd already shot all the Helm's Deep scenes with elves in them. So it got changed to Haldir, and Arwen got edited out. Yes, because god forbid we have two female characters with agency and complex motivation actually doing stuff, why people might get confused. Jackson whiffed on that call. Also they should’ve just been Dunedain the twins and Arwen and no elves at all. (Elrond’s kids are technically half-elven and get a choice). Oracle fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Jun 15, 2023 |
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Jun 15, 2023 23:21
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Data Graham posted:Tangentially: anyone know what Olsen's problem is with the Witch-king breaking Gandalf's staff at the gate of Minas Tirith in one of the extended edition scenes? He always gripes about it as his single biggest complaint on a conceptual level with the films, but he doesn't ever explain why exactly. I assume it's a thing about how Gandalf totally outranks him on the scale of Maiar vs wraiths etc, but that seems like a weirdly DBZ-power-levels kind of thing to get hung up on
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Jun 15, 2023 23:22
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The elves at helms deep was ok. It tied into the themes and was like … arguably realistic
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Jun 15, 2023 23:22
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I don’t think the elves fight again. So it was nice to see them once
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Jun 15, 2023 23:22
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DACK FAYDEN posted:The best I got is that it's a really awkward juxtaposition with Gandalf breaking Saruman's staff, since that's pictured as him exerting divine authority to destroy the symbol of Saruman's authority and power? If I had to guess I'd say it was to demonstrate why Gandalf didn't square up with the Witch-King and have a supernatural throwdown. It's a little easier to show "even with the upgrades he's outclassed" than to tell all the backstory about how and why the Valar have forbidden the Wizards to go toe-to-toe with the Enemy because of what happened in the War of Wrath and Beleriand sinking etc. Why Olsen has a particular dislike I don't know. When did he say that?
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Jun 15, 2023 23:26
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Gandalf def outranks him at that time Maybe.
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Jun 15, 2023 23:29
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euphronius posted:I don’t think the elves fight again. So it was nice to see them once In the book it was made a point after the fact that the elves of Lorien and Mirkwood both had their own wars against Sauron's forces in the north and bringing it onscreen made sense in a visual medium. I'm kinda mixed on the movie changes since a lot of the most-quoted movie lines among fans aren't in the books at all and some the scenes that seem questionable in a strict adaptation sense got intense positive reactions up to outright cheering in the theaters I was in at the time.
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Jun 15, 2023 23:36
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Lemniscate Blue posted:If I had to guess I'd say it was to demonstrate why Gandalf didn't square up with the Witch-King and have a supernatural throwdown. It's a little easier to show "even with the upgrades he's outclassed" than to tell all the backstory about how and why the Valar have forbidden the Wizards to go toe-to-toe with the Enemy because of what happened in the War of Wrath and Beleriand sinking etc. I couldn't point to a particular time he says it, he just drops it occasionally in various episodes of either ExLOTR or Other Minds & Hands, with the preface that "I've talked about this a million times before so I don't want to belabor it" Maybe I'll goad him into talking about it again if I have nothing better to do on Tuesday night
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Jun 15, 2023 23:38
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The movie’s Witchking vs Gandalf is a really weird and bad bit of adaptation of a climactic scene that (you would think) practically films itself, and they rightly cut it in the theatrical version, since it’s pointless except to explain why Gandalf isn’t carrying his stick later.DACK FAYDEN posted:The best I got is that it's a really awkward juxtaposition with Gandalf breaking Saruman's staff, since that's pictured as him exerting divine authority to destroy the symbol of Saruman's authority and power? Also got cut from the theatrical edition weirdly enough. Someone hates staff explosions
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Jun 15, 2023 23:39
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You would not part an old man from his walking stick?
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Jun 15, 2023 23:46
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skasion posted:The movie’s Witchking vs Gandalf is a really weird and bad bit of adaptation of a climactic scene that (you would think) practically films itself, and they rightly cut it in the theatrical version, since it’s pointless except to explain why Gandalf isn’t carrying his stick later. Flinging his hood back to reveal a headless crown would've been amazing. The Witch King's lines in the movie aren't too dissimilar from what's in the book.
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Jun 15, 2023 23:47
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the scene is completely flipped on its head. In the book, Gandalf stands firm, and seems on the verge of throwing down before the horns start blowing in the movie, he gets owned instantly and has to be saved by the horns
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Jun 15, 2023 23:51
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Data Graham posted:Tangentially: anyone know what Olsen's problem is with the Witch-king breaking Gandalf's staff at the gate of Minas Tirith in one of the extended edition scenes? He always gripes about it as his single biggest complaint on a conceptual level with the films, but he doesn't ever explain why exactly. I assume it's a thing about how Gandalf totally outranks him on the scale of Maiar vs wraiths etc, but that seems like a weirdly DBZ-power-levels kind of thing to get hung up on I think the Jackson portrayal is the power-level type one, where it wants to portray Gandalf as weaker to than the Witch-King. In comparison, the encounter at the gate in the book is a demonstration of Gandalf's capital-A Authority - he proclaims The Siege of Gondor posted:"You cannot enter here", said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. "Go back into the abyss prepared for you! Go back!"
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Jun 15, 2023 23:58
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If there's one weak point to the books it's that the bad guys are built up with words to be extremely powerful and threatening, but then they fail to ever actually accomplish anything on screen. The ring wraiths get it the worst. First the Gaffer blows one of them off and refuses to take a message, then they get chased off by a few hobbits and one man at Weathertop, then they get drowned in a river, then one of them gets their pegasus shot down by Legolas, then the Witch King gets chased off by Gandalf and finally stabbed to death by another hobbit. The main thing they actually accomplish is taking Osgiliath which happens off screen. Since Sauron is off screen for the whole book and the orcs are mostly interchangeable the Witch King has to stand in as the main threat for most of the series. I can understand why Jackson wanted to build him up a little.
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Jun 16, 2023 00:34
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Also it's one thing to write about the pall of nerve-sapping dread the Nazgul exude and that's why they're terrible to confront, and another thing entirely to communicate visually why Gondor's finest are wetting their breeches at the sight of some dudes in cloaks
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Jun 16, 2023 02:44
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Caradhras is the most successful villain in the book
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Jun 16, 2023 03:12
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euphronius posted:Caradhras is the most successful villain in the book That's a good point. I love the idea of evil mountains and cruel trees
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Jun 16, 2023 03:18
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euphronius posted:Caradhras is the most successful villain in the book I mean the Balrog did kill Gandalf, even if the final score was 1-1
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Jun 16, 2023 03:45
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I thought about Balrog but in the end he mostly failed. If you assume his job was to stop the Ring
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Jun 16, 2023 04:54
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Why would you assume that? Why not rather assume Sam was Sauron's spy all along?
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Jun 16, 2023 05:33
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Monglo posted:Why would you assume that? A new shocking twist to add into the remake trilogy.
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Jun 16, 2023 05:36
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Oracle posted:Or be accompanied by them, yeah that would make a hell of a lot more sense and be more faithful to the books rather than ‘Lorien out of nowhere from the top rope!’ I think he should have kept Arwen too, but it wasn't a simple call. There's a real risk that Arwen's presence seriously marginalizes Eowyn's despair. The movies already had a problem with establishing that Eowyn's despair was not specifically because Aragorn rejected her. If Arwen actually shows up and Eowyn is basically immediately sidelined there's a chance that aspect gets even worse. That being said, if they had played up Eowyn's martial reasons for wanting to join the battle, it might have been better overall. Given how badly Peter Jackson handled throwing an audible with Tauriel in the Hobbit movies though, I'm not sure he could have handled Eowyn's plotline with the proper sensitivity.
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Jun 16, 2023 05:56
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sweet geek swag posted:I think he should have kept Arwen too, but it wasn't a simple call. There's a real risk that Arwen's presence seriously marginalizes Eowyn's despair. The movies already had a problem with establishing that Eowyn's despair was not specifically because Aragorn rejected her. If Arwen actually shows up and Eowyn is basically immediately sidelined there's a chance that aspect gets even worse. That being said, if they had played up Eowyn's martial reasons for wanting to join the battle, it might have been better overall. Given how badly Peter Jackson handled throwing an audible with Tauriel in the Hobbit movies though, I'm not sure he could have handled Eowyn's plotline with the proper sensitivity. I feel like I read somewhere that Tauriel's love interest plot got fiated by the money people who wanted romance in their fantasy fanboy orc-filled movie so's not to bore the girlfriends who just came cuz Legolas is cute.
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Jun 16, 2023 06:01
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OctaviusBeaver posted:If there's one weak point to the books it's that the bad guys are built up with words to be extremely powerful and threatening, but then they fail to ever actually accomplish anything on screen. The ring wraiths get it the worst. First the Gaffer blows one of them off and refuses to take a message, then they get chased off by a few hobbits and one man at Weathertop, then they get drowned in a river, then one of them gets their pegasus shot down by Legolas, then the Witch King gets chased off by Gandalf and finally stabbed to death by another hobbit. The main thing they actually accomplish is taking Osgiliath which happens off screen. Since Sauron is off screen for the whole book and the orcs are mostly interchangeable the Witch King has to stand in as the main threat for most of the series. I can understand why Jackson wanted to build him up a little. At Weathertop they're surprised that they got resisted. They don't know who Aragorn is and didn't expect anyone to resist them at night like that. But also they stab Frodo and withdraw because they think that he will get quickly overcome by the wound. And it's a fair assumption to make - most men would have quickly turned into wraiths from it. They don't know enough about Hobbits to know how tough they are.
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Jun 16, 2023 06:46
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I agree with the extended edition scene where Gandalf gets owned by the Witch King… it shouldn’t have been played that way. I also agree with the idea that the Black Riders just aren’t that formidable in the books. They have a +5 aura of Instill Fear, but they really aren’t very capable, other than that. This whole thing was much better in the films. I’ve said it before and purists will not agree, but I think most of the changes Jackson/Walsh/Boyens made do work, when you take into consideration what they were dealing with. That is, trying to adopt this voluminous book into three films, and needing to reel in the non book-readers as well as the longtime Ringheads. Needing to reel in people who knew nothing about the book, into a cinema experience, and hooking them into to a point where they’d want to see all three of them, waiting a year in between each one. I discovered the book around 1981 when I was a kid playing dungeons and dragons, and I guess I could have been classified as a “purist” when the films came out, but they won me over. Watching the extended editions of Fellowship, Towers, and then the theatrical cut of Return is the best way to do it IMO. I try to do that once a year or so, and it’s always fun. Having said all that, is there serious talk about a reboot now, and someone is going to do it all over again?
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Jun 16, 2023 07:04
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