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Alchenar posted:No that was 'pretend to be good'. The actual change happened in the arena (which was 'yesterday'). Oh, when did he switch to actual change by your estimation? I remember he ended up doing something that was kind of selfless but don't remember what. e X posted:All pep talk asides, Roy still has a point. When the Linear Guild attacks, there really isn't much they can do t this point. I mean, I love it when OotS goes out of its way to show that D&D rules aren't everything, but right now, they are kind of hosed. I think their best trump card now is they have Tarquin's favorite son.
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Mar 22, 2013 14:53
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I'm pretty sure at this point the only plan that the Order stand a chance of success with is 'blow up the gate and then scram before the Linears catch up to them'.
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Mar 22, 2013 14:53
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Is one Gate enough to hold back the Snarl, or whatever's behind the gate now? What if Basic monsters or something start leaking into the world when Girard's Gate goes up?
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Mar 22, 2013 14:56
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greatn posted:Oh, when did he switch to actual change by your estimation? I remember he ended up doing something that was kind of selfless but don't remember what. He probably meant loosing the T-rex to save 2 dudes he really had no reason to like, but suddenly didn't want to die horribly. e: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0784.html http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0807.html The Rooster fucked around with this message at 15:02 on Mar 22, 2013 |
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Mar 22, 2013 14:57
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The Rooster posted:He probably meant loosing the T-rex to save 2 dudes he really had no reason to like, but suddenly didn't want to die horribly. It's Belkar's first moment of empathy regarding another person. General empathy is typically associated with being good but Rich (and pretty much every good DM/storyteller stuck with the 3x3 morality matrix) uses it as a guideline for general behavior and allows for deviations so WHO THE HELL KNOWS either way I hope I didn't start the Great Alignment Derail. If you read this, and are thinking about replying regarding alignment, just loving don't.
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Mar 22, 2013 15:02
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Yeah, I wouldn't call if an alignment shift, and am totally uninterested in any sort of tedious alignment debate as well. But it is a huge CHARACTER shift, which is what his character needed. But even then, he deliberately kept his actions from Roy, who dismissed the possibility that Belkar was involved.
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Mar 22, 2013 15:06
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FMguru posted:Elan looks so wounded when Roy tells him his spellcasting abilities (and him personally) don't count for anything. Yeah, Roy might have a good head on his shoulders for strategy, but once he can't make a situation add up he tends to fall apart. This is pretty much an unwinnable situation for them now, at least going by the numbers. The only reason they have to keep going, as Belkar pointed out (more or less) is that they have no choice. Although with as many bad guys converging on the gate as there are right now, it's not unlikely the gate'll be destroyed not by our heroes but by different villains fighting over it. Belkar's probably dead today, and V might be in demon pawn mode any minute. Is the Order likely to lose any more members today? They might actually have to go recruiting.
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Mar 22, 2013 15:08
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I have to hand it to Rich. During the lead up to Durkon's vamping, I was really looking forward to Belkar finally dying. I'd just about had it with the little poo poo, and now this. A genuine moment of clarity, and real character development (as opposed to the fake kind done for the benefit of others)? I'm actually kind of dreading the Oracle's prophecy coming true now, instead of anticipating it.
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Mar 22, 2013 15:08
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I'll just say someone who is a horrible person and does horrible things but has empathy for others and sometimes feels regret or wants to help I'd at the very least "more good" than someone who is the same but never has empathy, feels regret, or wants to help, even if they're still bad to the bone, B-b-b-b-b-baaaaaaad.
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Mar 22, 2013 15:09
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Shugojin posted:If you read this, and are thinking about replying regarding alignment, just loving don't. Too late, I'm already wri  I think that Belkar is going through a significant change. This might even be a step on the road to his redemption. I really want to see Belkar 'rehabilitated' enough (but still an rear end in a top hat) to become a genuinely likable character.
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Mar 22, 2013 15:09
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Oh there's literal in-strip proof that Belkar is still evil - he's effected by the Holy spell. But as a character he's genuinely shifting.
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Mar 22, 2013 15:16
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I'm still fuzzy on what, exactly, the downside to giving the Linear Guild the Gate is. They don't know the ritual; what're they gonna do with it except fight Xykon?
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Mar 22, 2013 15:17
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CapnAndy posted:I'm still fuzzy on what, exactly, the downside to giving the Linear Guild the Gate is. They don't know the ritual; what're they gonna do with it except fight Xykon? Lose to Xykon.
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Mar 22, 2013 15:18
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Alchenar posted:Oh there's literal in-strip proof that Belkar is still evil - he's effected by the Holy spell. But as a character he's genuinely shifting. I'm pretty sure Holy affects any non-Good actually.
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Mar 22, 2013 15:23
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greatn posted:I'm pretty sure Holy affects any non-Good actually. Yeah, it effects neutral just as much as evil.
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Mar 22, 2013 15:27
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greatn posted:I'm pretty sure Holy affects any non-Good actually. It's like we are 870 strips ago again. "Does unholy blight affect neutral characters?" "sorta." "What about V?" "The joke is that he's evil, stop overthinking it".
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Mar 22, 2013 15:35
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drat, Belkar. His last line was genuinely heartfelt. I am starting to suspect he might sacrifice himself to seal/destroy this gate, and that will be how the prophecy will be fulfilled.
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Mar 22, 2013 15:48
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ikanreed posted:It's like we are 870 strips ago again. "Does unholy blight affect neutral characters?" "sorta." "What about V?" "The joke is that he's evil, stop overthinking it". I'm not saying he's not, I'm just saying the spell would work regardless.
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Mar 22, 2013 15:49
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I literally have no idea what to expect anymore, the order is really really screwed. I love Belkars smack down though. This entire book has seen some genuine, not pretending character growth from him. Oh god did that 9 day stretch ruin me though. The wait for new comics is horrible now.
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Mar 22, 2013 16:06
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Message posted:Golly, I wonder if Rich is okay. :ohdearsmiley: Works like a charm.
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Mar 22, 2013 16:23
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I agree with how great Belkar was in that strip. Berating Roy at that time was absolutely right. Great writing.Whybird posted:I'm pretty sure at this point the only plan that the Order stand a chance of success with is 'blow up the gate and then scram before the Linears catch up to them'. That can work for the Linear Guild, but if Xykon arrives to a wrecked gate, is there much to stop him from just going on ahead to the one after that? I doubt it. Something has to happen here to delay Xykon.
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Mar 22, 2013 17:16
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:I agree with how great Belkar was in that strip. Berating Roy at that time was absolutely right. Great writing. I forget, is there any particular reason to expect that Xykon is going for this gate and not the dwarf one? Is there going to be a massive showdown between the Linears and the Sticks, with much drama and rending of breasts and gnashing of teeth, and a skin-of-their-teeth Stick victory... Only to have the gate erupt/disappear/whatever the Ritual would make the other gates do as Xykon and Redcloak successfully do the ritual over in Dwarf lands unopposed by PCs?
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Mar 22, 2013 17:28
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Ursine Asylum posted:I forget, is there any particular reason to expect that Xykon is going for this gate and not the dwarf one? The Oracle said so 550 strips ago.
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Mar 22, 2013 17:36
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Roy asked the Oracle which gate Xykon would go first out of Kraagor's and Girard's, and the Oracle said Girard's. Technically he asked which gate he'd first come within a hundred miles of which leaves the door open for Xykon to just enter that radius, say "actually I'm just gonna get sand all in my joints, turn around everyone, we're going North" but, y'know. e: oh yeah, it was a 1000 ft.-radius. A little less plausible I suppose.
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Mar 22, 2013 17:36
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My Lovely Horse posted:Roy asked the Oracle which gate Xykon would go first out of Kraagor's and Girard's, and the Oracle said Girard's. Redcloak has explicitly said that Xykon will, on a semi-regular basis, jaunt off and nobody knows where he goes (although most recently it seems like most of it was putting together his giant phylactery castle in another plane). "Xykon being within 100 miles of X" is a lot different than "He's going to make a move on the gate at X", and doubly so if you consider that this was pre-Soon's Gate, which means well before the Familicide spell-- there's 6 months of offscreen Xykon time in there, if I'm not mistaken. I don't actually think that Ron would pull something like this off-panel, but if at any point Xykon was in the area for shits and giggles (or scouting out the other gate locations based on the diary), the illusionary protection would have still been intact and he could have fulfilled the prophecy without ever knowing the gate was actually there. e: If it's 1000 feet that makes it less likely but, again, if he had the exact location from the diary but couldn't see past the illusions in place...it's unlikely, but it would be an interesting twist to have happen. Alliterate Addict fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Mar 22, 2013 |
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Mar 22, 2013 17:44
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I was way off about the actual distance but still, yes that is a valid concern and it is also how the Oracle's prophecies usually go. Only way to tell for sure is hang around the gate and see what comes through the door first, Xykon or the apocalypse.
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Mar 22, 2013 17:47
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Can Xykon teleport? It seems like getting him and Redcloak and MiTD and maybe a couple others near the gate shouldn't take more than a few minutes.
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Mar 22, 2013 18:03
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CapnAndy posted:I'm still fuzzy on what, exactly, the downside to giving the Linear Guild the Gate is. They don't know the ritual; what're they gonna do with it except fight Xykon? The plan, and the reason that Nale's still alive, is that Nale will provide an "in" to negotiating with Xykon as a former employee. Personally, I think that Xykon won't remember Nale anymore than he does Roy. Meanwhile, Redcloak probably does remember Nale, but about the only thing the Linear Guild can provide to Xykon is a replacement cleric so there's no good reason for Redcloak to back the Guild's play, unless he thinks Zz'ditri's easier to control than Xykon, but then we don't know if Z's powerful enough for the arcane half of the ritual. In short, thanks to Nale's providing misleading intelligence regarding his own usefulness, there's a pretty good chance that it will come down to a battle between the Linear Guild and Team Evil. On the other hand, "selling" his services to people he ultimately seizes control from and betrays is Tarquin's main shtick, so it may come down to a negotiated settlement after all. I'm not really sure what's going to happen...there are too many variables. Team Evil, Linear Guild, IFCC controlled V, the Order....there are a lot of ways this could yet go down. I'm really looking forward to seeing what happens next. greatn posted:Can Xykon teleport? It seems like getting him and Redcloak and MiTD and maybe a couple others near the gate shouldn't take more than a few minutes. He certainly can. The question is how close Xykon will be able to teleport in. On one hand, this Gate is probably protected by decent anti-scrying magic. Or at least it was. The question now is, how many of those spells are still active without any Draketooth still alive to recast it? I don't know. It's another wildcard. What it does mean is that between the spells that Xykon is having Redcloak cast and what may or may not be left of the anti-teleport defenses, Rich has the leeway to explain any result, from "right now" to "too late, Gate's already blown", to anything in between.
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Mar 22, 2013 18:32
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While we know that Xykon will end up within 1000 feet of Girard's gate first, what we don't know is why Recloak has focused in on that gate over Kraagor's. He doesn't interrogate O-Chul over what monsters are guarding the tomb, he asks about Girard's illusions. By the time they're ready to teleport out, it's apparently been settled that Windy Canyon is their destination. It feels like since we already knew the plot sequence, Rich didn't feel the need to show the villains coming to the foregone conclusion, but it's slightly mysterious.
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Mar 22, 2013 23:09
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greatn posted:Can Xykon teleport? jng2058 posted:He certainly can. We've never seen him cast a Teleport spell, not even during the siege when it would have come really handy, and he's a sorcerer. Yeah, if those bounty hunters can get hold of a Teleport scroll than Xykon surely can as well, but we've never seen him use any scroll at all. I would place a decent bet on Rich having decided that an unspoken part of Xykon's "gently caress wizards" shtick was a distaste for casting magic from a piece of paper. (I mean, he actually had him learn the "Moderately Escapable Forcecage".) It would both be a solid piece of characterisation, and it would help rein in the 'there's a spell for any problem' issue a bit.
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Mar 23, 2013 00:36
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Danzou posted:While we know that Xykon will end up within 1000 feet of Girard's gate first, what we don't know is why Recloak has focused in on that gate over Kraagor's. He doesn't interrogate O-Chul over what monsters are guarding the tomb, he asks about Girard's illusions. By the time they're ready to teleport out, it's apparently been settled that Windy Canyon is their destination. It feels like since we already knew the plot sequence, Rich didn't feel the need to show the villains coming to the foregone conclusion, but it's slightly mysterious. Back in strip 300 when they were picking between the last three gates, Girard's was ruled out because it was across the ocean and getting 88 legions of hobgoblins across the ocean was a logistical nightmare. Kraagor's, on the other hand, would've required fighting their way through 8 human nations. Again, a bit of a logistical nightmare and a timesink, which is why they went for Azure City. Now that they're traveling light, they don't have to worry about the hobgoblin army anymore, but presumably, they figured it'd be easier for the three of them to just travel to the Western Continent and overcome Girard's illusions than to travel through a bunch of human-controlled territory and then have to clear out a labyrinth full of nasty monsters on top of that.
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Mar 23, 2013 00:51
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Have they taken any time to loot the Draketooth clan's quarters? I mean, a family of illusionists drops dead and their remains go untouched for months, there should be one or two usable magic items lying around. Elan may be a crap spellcaster but he could probably spoof a wand.
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Mar 23, 2013 01:28
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NihilCredo posted:We've never seen him cast a Teleport spell, not even during the siege when it would have come really handy, and he's a sorcerer. Yeah, if those bounty hunters can get hold of a Teleport scroll than Xykon surely can as well, but we've never seen him use any scroll at all. You can see Greater Teleport under 7th level on the spell list that O'Chul hands over to Roy on strip 670.
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Mar 23, 2013 01:29
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It really confuses me that Belkar isn't everyone's favorite character.
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Mar 23, 2013 01:45
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Toussaint Louverture posted:It really confuses me that Belkar isn't everyone's favorite character. He spent most of the strip as a one-trick wonder, and that trick was being a murderous douchebag. He's been growing on me since the Mark of Justice was removed.
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Mar 23, 2013 02:03
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ConfusedUs posted:He spent most of the strip as a one-trick wonder, and that trick was being a murderous douchebag. Belkar used to be my least favourite character until the removal of the Mark of Justice gave him some character depth. Now he's brilliant and I don't want to see him go, which is really surprising given how much of a strain I thought he put on the story earlier.
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Mar 23, 2013 02:20
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Toussaint Louverture posted:It really confuses me that Belkar isn't everyone's favorite character. The problem isn't that Belkar's not a great character, it's that there are so many other great characters to choose from. Like my favorite character is V, mostly because I think the whole familicide thing was incredibly hosed up but really interesting character-wise. I think at this point, you could make a pretty good argument for any of the main heroes/villains being the best character, and probably a bunch of the secondary characters as well. It's pretty amazing that Rich can have such deep characterization about DnD stick figures.
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Mar 23, 2013 02:32
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Y'know, it's been a while since we've seen Ian Starshine and his buddy... Roy could really use the backup right now, think they're going to show up as the high-level adventurers they're supposed to be? Though I don't think a pair of rogues are going to change the Order's fortunes a lot...
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Mar 23, 2013 02:53
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The problem with negotiating with Xykon is he got a lot crazier and meaner since Nale last ran into him. So that'll be interesting! People have already called it and I think I agree that I wouldn't be suprised if he ends up murdering the new linear guild
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Mar 23, 2013 02:56
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RentACop posted:The problem with negotiating with Xykon is he got a lot crazier and meaner since Nale last ran into him. So that'll be interesting! People have already called it and I think I agree that I wouldn't be suprised if he ends up murdering the new linear guild Bets on Nale's intelligence rarely pan out, but I wouldn't be surprised if he knows that too and is just hoping to escape at the right moment and let his dad and his dad's killer lizard get vaporized.
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Mar 23, 2013 03:26
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