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So, my microwave died. It's an over the range 240V unit. What options do I have if the replacement is 120V? Seems like this is gonna be a pain in the rear end.
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Jan 22, 2022 01:01
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carticket posted:So, my microwave died. It's an over the range 240V unit. What options do I have if the replacement is 120V? Seems like this is gonna be a pain in the rear end. What wires are hanging out up there? If it's L, L and N, you might be in luck but there's probably a code violation in there somehow. My first thought was 'phase imbalance' but that would happen regardless. Technically though, if there's a neutral, you have 120 V L-N and 240 V L-L that was (hopefully) being fed by a properly installed 2-pole breaker. So even if you only short one line, it should still trip / protect stuff. If it's a fancier GFCI/AFCI/CFCI type though, it may get unhappy about the imbalance. FWIW, I installed 2-pole GFCI Square D QO breakers that work great on my kitchen MWBC -- no nuisance trips so far. I am not a licensed electrician though, so if one of them comments on why this is dis-allowed, I would listen. movax fucked around with this message at 01:20 on Jan 22, 2022 |
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Jan 22, 2022 01:18
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movax posted:What wires are hanging out up there? If it's L, L and N, you might be in luck but there's probably a code violation in there somehow. My first thought was 'phase imbalance' but that would happen regardless. It's got a proper 2 pole breaker (though I can't speak to the install). 14-50 plug, so it *should* have hot hot neutral. I'm still at work getting info relayed from home. There are not a lot of 240v OTR microwaves. Even some of the convection microwaves I'm coming across just take 120v. E: When I say not a lot of 240V OTR microwaves, I apparently mean just GE Advantium, which the broken one is (about 15 years old, so it lived a good life). It's also $1500 and retains the dumbest microwave control system. carticket fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Jan 22, 2022 |
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Jan 22, 2022 01:26
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carticket posted:It's got a proper 2 pole breaker (though I can't speak to the install). 14-50 plug, so it *should* have hot hot neutral. I'm still at work getting info relayed from home. If you've already got a neutral up there - worst case you have to swap the breaker on one end (to a single pole one) and the outlet on the other (just watch wire gauges). If not, I think you can mark one of the wires as neutral and just swap the breaker as well.
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Jan 22, 2022 02:57
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devicenull posted:If you've already got a neutral up there - worst case you have to swap the breaker on one end (to a single pole one) and the outlet on the other (just watch wire gauges). If I do this, what do I do with the other hot (on both ends)?
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Jan 22, 2022 03:03
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devicenull posted:If you've already got a neutral up there - worst case you have to swap the breaker on one end (to a single pole one) and the outlet on the other (just watch wire gauges). I was gonna post that, but stopped. Because we had recently done a code dive here where that's not really legal on those size conductors. Technically. I'd do it.
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Jan 22, 2022 03:04
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That was only for the ground wire (though another section may require white for neutral).
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Jan 22, 2022 03:23
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FISHMANPET posted:That was only for the ground wire (though another section may require white for neutral). Oh I thought that covered tagging the neutral too. Either way......carry on if this is a thing that needs to be done because it's old work and that's a reasonable enough excuse when done safely and tagged properly.
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Jan 22, 2022 03:27
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Obviously the way to do this is to repurpose it but not tag it because the tag draws attention to your crime. That is a joke. Label it clearly so that it doesn’t give someone a nasty surprise.
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Jan 22, 2022 03:36
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I will report back tomorrow when I get the microwave out and get into the wiring. I'm still not sure what the consensus is. Switch to a 1P 20A breaker and swap the outlet? What would I do with the extra hot?
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Jan 22, 2022 06:14
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Cap it.
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Jan 22, 2022 06:22
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Oh I didn't realize that run wasn't shared with something else -- yeah, I'd cut and cap + switch to a 1P breaker. Cover all bases -- de-energize the floating cable and cover the case if someone re-energizes it.
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Jan 22, 2022 06:30
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i can't wait to someday live in a house where everything is wired to code and the contents of junction boxes actually look anything like the youtube videos
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Jan 22, 2022 07:12
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1996 code but yeah it’s pretty great, any additions/modifications have been straightforward. The kitchen even has dual gfci circuits.
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Jan 22, 2022 10:57
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Out of sheer laziness, how bad an idea is it to just use something like this: https://bre.is/LHZ7nByT (home depot link) This is assuming it's not GFCI/AFCI at the breaker, though I don't believe it is.
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Jan 22, 2022 16:16
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carticket posted:Out of sheer laziness, how bad an idea is it to just use something like this: https://bre.is/LHZ7nByT (home depot link) Those are really intended for temporary use. I suppose you can choose your definition of temporary.
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Jan 22, 2022 16:23
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Motronic posted:Those are really intended for temporary use. I suppose you can choose your definition of temporary. I mean, it's not technically a permanent installation. If it won't burn the house down, then temporary will probably involve waiting until I have an electrician come over to run circuits for mini-splits, hopefully this summer.
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Jan 22, 2022 16:31
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carticket posted:I mean, it's not technically a permanent installation. If it won't burn the house down, then temporary will probably involve waiting until I have an electrician come over to run circuits for mini-splits, hopefully this summer. I'd roll with that.
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Jan 22, 2022 16:35
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The sketchy bit is that the appliance cord is only designed to survive 20A, but the nearest upstream breaker will supply 50A before tripping. GFCI vs not shouldn't matter at all. They trip when Live1+Live2+Neutral > a few mA because that implies current is going somewhere unintended. It doesn't matter if Neutral is 0 (only using it for 240), one of the lives is 0 (only using it for 120), or all three are nonzero (mix), only the sum matters.
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Jan 22, 2022 23:29
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Foxfire_ posted:The sketchy bit is that the appliance cord is only designed to survive 20A, but the nearest upstream breaker will supply 50A before tripping. There are other adapters that have a 20A breaker in them. I can probably grab one of those instead. E: I have heard that imbalanced loading across the two legs can also cause a trip for GFCI.
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Jan 23, 2022 04:21
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carticket posted:There are other adapters that have a 20A breaker in them. I can probably grab one of those instead. Not since the early early 2000s when current amplifiers were "expensive." Now, each leg gets its own current sense amp and they sum in software. The old units had one sense amp and all three legs went through one loop. Depending on how the legs were glued into the loop, one leg could have more effect than the other.
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Jan 23, 2022 05:17
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Realted to wiring, insomuch as it's outlet and switch covers. Anyone have a good source for raised/extended Decora/GFCI style outlet wall plates? I found these: https://www.kyleswitchplates.com/deep-beveled-single-gfci-decora-rocker-switch-plate-covers/ But they seem a little pricey for a single plate. I've got upwards of two dozen to replace, so I'd rather only spend a LITTLE more than a regular cover plate, not almost 10x more. Simply getting a raised cover plate seems a LOT easier than having to remove every single old box and replace them with deeper ones, since the old, metal, 70's era boxes don't really fit the newer style decora or GFCI outlets. I haven't looked in person at Lowe's or HD, but an online search didn't turn up much, but also both of those companies have God-awful searching.
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Jan 25, 2022 16:24
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I'd call up a local electrical supply house and see if they stock or could order them for you.
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Jan 25, 2022 18:03
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I’d like to swap all of my outlets. Who makes the best TR duplex?
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Jan 27, 2022 01:39
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eddiewalker posted:I’d like to swap all of my outlets. Who makes the best TR duplex? The Leviton stuff is fine, especially if you upgrade to the 'commercial grade'. Personally, I only use the commercial grade outlets for areas that will see tons of insertions (heh), like the kitchen, workshop, and wherever you tend to plug in vacuums and things. Replacing an outlet that wears out in 8 years vs. 12 years isn't really that big of a deal. Switches on the other hand, go higher quality always. Mushy switches suck from day one, and you die a little inside every time you flip it and it feels like pushing a spoon through cake batter.
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Jan 27, 2022 15:13
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If you're buying a lot, keep in mind that they sell 10 packs for both outlets and switches. That will help you save a few bucks. If you're swapping them all, keep in mind all of the locations for GFCIs. Outdoor outlets need to be WR as well as GFCI.
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Jan 27, 2022 19:53
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B-Nasty posted:Switches on the other hand, go higher quality always. Mushy switches suck from day one, and you die a little inside every time you flip it and it feels like pushing a spoon through cake batter. Lutron mechanical switches are very satisifying / very clunky. Love 'em.
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Jan 27, 2022 20:31
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I think a lot of my outlets are original from the 70s and plugs just fall out. I bought 10 packs from Menards at the last house, but they didn’t feel high quality and the TR slots were annoying. The Lowes 10-packs were Eaton, which I’ve never tried. Home Depot is a little far, but I’m willing to drive if their brand is “the one.” I know I’ve seen YouTube teardowns of outlets showing there’s a tangible difference in good outlets, but I don’t remember what won.
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Jan 27, 2022 21:42
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Menards sells Legrand, Lowes does Eaton, and Home Depot has Leviton. I don't know if there are any other major players in the that market. I would never touch the "Smart Electrician" house brand stuff at Menards. I think they'll all pretty much have comparable products at comparable prices, if you want a nicer receptacle or switch you pay more for whatever that brand's premium or commercial products are. It can be a bit confusing standing in the aisle looking at so many options trying to find the right one, but eventually you'll be able to figure out how the seemingly identical offerings line up. Last outlets I bought I wanted 20 amp and eventually found the ones that were $6 a piece and were both TR and WR and self-grounding. Maybe someone like Motoronic will chime in but I doubt any one brand is better than the other, just that each brand has different tiers of quality. I will say that my FIL brought a bunch of Eaton stuff when he came to help do some electrical, the receptacles actually have a stripper built into them if you're desperate. I also don't like the Eaton outlet covers, they're a hard plastic and a bit smaller than the Legrands I get at Menards, which are a flexible Nylon. Though the Eaten covers seem to be the perfect size to go on those grey PVC indoor/outdoor boxes (if you're using them indoors!!!!)
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Jan 27, 2022 22:09
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FISHMANPET posted:I doubt any one brand is better than the other, just that each brand has different tiers of quality. Yeah, it's this. And there are still some off brands that have like, actual backstabs (not the kind that clamp on with the side terminal). These are to be avoided at all costs. Also, Home Depot sells GE outlets in addition to Levitton. I like the Levitton TR ones they stock (the most expensive ones, which aren't all that expensive). Plugging things into them the first few times sucks, but the TR mechanism loosens up. I really doubt you need to get into commercial territory and don't think you'd find much difference in a resi situation. Things start getting nuts when you get into stuff like isolated ground which you absolutely do not need outside of some very special circumstances, none of them in your home.
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Jan 27, 2022 22:23
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FISHMANPET posted:Menards sells Legrand, Lowes does Eaton, and Home Depot has Leviton. I don't know if there are any other major players in the that market. I would never touch the "Smart Electrician" house brand stuff at Menards. Hubbell, if you really need that mid-century "they don't build em like this anymore" hipster cred
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Jan 27, 2022 23:42
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eddiewalker posted:I’d like to swap all of my outlets. Who makes the best TR duplex? The ones at the bottom shelf in the 10-pack in the shape and color you want. Same with the plastic covers. Just round up to the nearest 10pack unless you have a 100% accurate count that ends at a multiple of ten, then buy 2-3 extras. Always nice to just have an outlet ready when one inevitably dies on you, or a friend needs one.
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Jan 28, 2022 22:42
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Also worth noting that when I bought receptacles and switches to replace all of mine, it was like, 15-20% cheaper to get the receptacles and faceplates on Amazon than at any of the chains around me. Switches were cheaper at HD though.
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Jan 28, 2022 22:57
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I just worry about counterfeit products on Amazon.
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Jan 29, 2022 00:07
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15% to 20% is not enough savings to justify the risk of counterfeit electrical components from Amazon, imo. And if it were 50% cheaper you'd know it was fake. In short, this is not the kind of thing to buy from Amazon. Best case scenario, you're getting the factory seconds like you get from Walmart.
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Jan 29, 2022 00:15
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BonerGhost posted:15% to 20% is not enough savings to justify the risk of counterfeit electrical components from Amazon, imo. And if it were 50% cheaper you'd know it was fake. In short, this is not the kind of thing to buy from Amazon. Best case scenario, you're getting the factory seconds like you get from Walmart.
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Jan 29, 2022 01:36
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Electrical is the rare field where it's worth it to track down the local supply house that has no web presence and may or may not have a listed phone number because the pricing is usually better than big box hardware stores, they usually aren't dicks about cash counter sales to the public, and on some items (looking at you Old Work Boxes) the quality is light years beyond what any hardware store carries.
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Jan 29, 2022 01:41
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Parts counter employees can also be helpful for a project. Though there may be signs posted all over that they aren't electricians, they sure know a hell of a lot more than anyone at a general hardware store. Also you can usually get a question or two answered from an electrician who is waiting on their order.
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Jan 29, 2022 02:10
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So, lots of snow coming tomorrow, got my generator all setup. One thing I figured I'd ask: do I actually need to worry about grounding the generator separately from the connection to the house? If so, can I just throw some copper and wrap it around my well head (~8" metal pipe going straight down for who knows how far, it's 600 ft deep) and call that good enough?
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Jan 29, 2022 06:37
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Rufio posted:Parts counter employees can also be helpful for a project. Though there may be signs posted all over that they aren't electricians, they sure know a hell of a lot more than anyone at a general hardware store. Also you can usually get a question or two answered from an electrician who is waiting on their order. Can confirm "I need a box, that has a thingy, that you can attach to a dingus to do a job", the counter guy stares at you like you're a puppy who just poo poo on his carpet for about 10 seconds, then says "You mean a duplex new work box with the hammer bracket?" then goes and grabs one from the back. It's exactly what you just so poorly described, and it then cost you about $2. It's also how I learned that you need to use a hydraulic compression crimp for ground wire splices, AND that they'll rent the $4000 gun to you for about $25/day, and since you're cool, they didn't bother charging you for the 2nd and 3rd day since nobody else asked for it. carticket posted:So, lots of snow coming tomorrow, got my generator all setup. One thing I figured I'd ask: do I actually need to worry about grounding the generator separately from the connection to the house? If so, can I just throw some copper and wrap it around my well head (~8" metal pipe going straight down for who knows how far, it's 600 ft deep) and call that good enough? Ideally it'll be connected via a separate wire to wherever your neutral/ground bonding point is, but in the absence of enough give a gently caress to do that, grounding it to the well pipe should also work fine.
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Jan 29, 2022 06:43
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