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DrSnakeLaser posted:There's also this unsettling thing:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36Xro9csbbk I always wished Hunger Island picked up a bigger following if only because he first monster is both so silly and creepy.
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Oct 2, 2018 02:00
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i dont think i have any horror games to play this year. i guess i'm all caught up. call of cuthlhu will probably be bad but thats coming out the day before halloween so i dont count it. i dont have the patience to play the shovelware thats coming out all the time on steam
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Oct 2, 2018 09:04
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I finished Darkwood nearly a year ago and I still find myself thinking about the memorable/horrific stuff that happens in that game. I'd strongly recommend it if you enjoy super-depressing European body horror that strays away from jump-scares in favor of making the player dread investigating that barricaded closet with scratching sounds emanating from it. God-drat, what an ending.
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Oct 2, 2018 09:33
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SUPERMAN'S GAL PAL posted:I always wished Hunger Island picked up a bigger following if only because he first monster is both so silly and creepy. The first is creepy and janky, the second one just goes straight to forbidden siren 2 territory.
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Oct 2, 2018 16:34
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Here's another short horror game that trades heavy on atmosphere, not as effectively as Little Nightmares but is particularly good if you're into PS1-era horror or weird poo poo like petscop. 1. Little Nightmares 2. OK/NORMAL    Atmosphere is everything to a horror game. Jumpscares and spooky monsters will get you a scream or two, but it’s the atmosphere of dread and anticipation that truly captivates people. There are a lot of ways to go about this, of course, and the gaming world has access to some unique approaches like haunted video games and plays on classic, creepy aesthetics. That’s where you’ll find OK/NORMAL, dredging up blurred memories of indistinct polygonal horrors. It doesn’t do a lot with them, but there’s enough put into the experience to make it worth your while. If there’s a story to OK/NORMAL I’ll be damned if I can make it out. You play as a hovering marble statue, consigned to traverse floating checkerboard walkways in search of food and pills. Your helpful raincloud companion informs you that everything will be fine as long as you eat well and take your medicine, but that notion falls apart in a real hurry. It shouldn’t be hard to figure out that your ominous game world is going to become significantly more ominous, between the dramatic color shifts, glitched-out indicators, and unwelcome guests. The weirdness reaches a fever pitch as you augur towards your fate, though what that fate is may not be clear even after witnessing it. So yeah, it’s one of those games where a lot of stuff happens but it never really comes together to mean anything. You could consider that a bit of a spoiler, but it’s important to calibrate your expectations here. The scant bits of broken dialog from your raincloud bud and… other things won’t illuminate the circumstances surrounding your odd little sojourn, leaving you to speculate wildly on the point of it all. The atmosphere might suggest a broken or even haunted video game but the plot, if there even is one, gives no indication of that at all. Things start out weird and end up creepy, and you’re not going to ever know why. That’s fine, really, because atmosphere can honestly carry an entire game. I would be perfectly happy wandering around in one of the ruined seabases of SOMA without any explanation, and so I don’t mind playing through thumping, blood-red levels of this odd little game. But you can’t let the gameplay get in the way of that either, and OK/NORMAL stumbles there as well. Most levels are simple enough, following the trails of items to the exit, and then when things get stranger you spend a little time figuring out the gimmicks. But near the end of the game that shuts down hard with a banal key hunt across a sprawling level. Turns out there are no threats to harangue you here either, which goes a long way towards killing that priceless atmosphere that does so much work. There are other annoyances to mention, ones that risk turning off certain players hard right from the start. This being a retro-inspired game, you’ll be grappling with very literal tank controls for your statue-man where one stick moves forward and back and the other rotates his base. I didn’t have much trouble staying on paths and doing some basic platforming but I know that’s a hard sell for some. Death also restarts the entire level, so while it’s not too much trouble to avoid falling off the path you’re going to want to be extremely careful on longer levels. And honestly, as much as I love the old CRT PS1-style graphics, they make finding your way in the more garish levels far too difficult, and might even start hurting your eyes before you reach the conclusion. Despite these bumps in the road, I still enjoyed my journey in OK/NORMAL. It has a terribly unique look and feel, and makes good use of it to unnerve and confuse. The graphics are great for their purpose and the minimalist sound design is a great fit. Most of the levels were interesting, with some twisted around in unexpected ways. If not for the horrid key hunt and aggressive lack of plot this one would rate a lot higher, but it remains a valuable experience to behold. OK/NORMAL isn’t going to become your favorite horror game but it offers something creative and different, just in a smaller, more flawed package than you might expect.
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Oct 2, 2018 16:49
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Meallan posted:Have you seen the death mark playthrough? If so does it look good? I like horror VNs and I'm looking foward to it. I've finished the first chapter. It's a little slow to start but it's a strange good kind of creepy. (and sadly some fan service that feels tacked in). It's not 100% voice acted (far from it) and there's gameplay elements that remind me of Corpse Party : Book of Shadows. Life threatening decisions are timed so that's an extra layer of stress.
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Oct 2, 2018 17:09
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Damnit someone criticizing SOMA without me here. The terror in that game wasn’t the multiple selves existing. That’s common sci-if by now. The terror for me was the constant thought of being trapped alone in the bottom of the ocean forever. It gets worse the deeper and deeper it gets. I felt suffocated playing SOMA. Had the plot been about one person alone trying to survive at the bottom of the ocean with a broken AI as company. The game would been more effective. The main character should not have been voice acted. It would still need to have the pressure suit grated to the body though. No escape via death You are stuck at the bottom of the ocean forever. They should have stuck with one ending and had you wandering the ocean floor alone and in the dark forever.
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Oct 2, 2018 17:52
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Any ps4 people want to give some goon games of Friday the 13th a shot?
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Oct 2, 2018 18:34
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Did Frictional do creator commentary for SOMA? Everything about their library makes me suspect the Big Non-Switcharoo at the end was genuinely meant to be a reveal, and that yes, they just botched it that hard. Getting more insight into their design process would help a lot on at least understanding what was intentional, and what wasn't.
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Oct 2, 2018 19:06
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DropsySufferer posted:The main character should not have been voice acted. disregarding the context of this statement, i'd argue that Simon is maybe the game industry's single most compelling argument in favor of silent protagonists christ, he was the worst
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Oct 2, 2018 19:11
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Discendo Vox posted:Did Frictional do creator commentary for SOMA? Everything about their library makes me suspect the Big Non-Switcharoo at the end was genuinely meant to be a reveal, and that yes, they just botched it that hard. Getting more insight into their design process would help a lot on at least understanding what was intentional, and what wasn't. Not as far as I know, but Catherine literally shouts at Simon for refusing to accept it and getting mad at her despite how hard she tried to explain it to him. There was nothing in the game that suggests it was supposed to be a big reveal. Like if you want to connect it back to their prior games, it felt like a cute way of having both a bad and good ending at once instead of like in Amnesia where the multiple different endings were mutually exclusive. edit: Like maybe at some point they did intend to have it be a thing, but either way the game's story as it currently exists explicitly lays it out well in advance of it happening. First implicitly when you come across other copied people, then all but explicitly when you find out Simon 1 lived and died in Vancouver, and finally Catherine just lays it all out for you before you go to the final areas. TGLT fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Oct 2, 2018 |
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Oct 2, 2018 19:32
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Oh right, that’s the PS+ thing, huh. May as well give it a go!
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Oct 2, 2018 20:02
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The decisions are just so inexplicable. I do know from past commentary and making of playthroughs that Frictional have a really...uneven...sense of design principles and workflow that's repeatedly become a huge obstacle in their design process. Some sort of series of cuts and revisions might explain some of those bad decisions. It's a company that's succeeded in significant part due to going really all in on sound design and visual design, but their writing and game design are incredibly underdeveloped by comparison. Something I want to highlight, setting aside the novelty of the concepts involved; even the most strident defenses of SOMA online, including in this thread, have to spend a paragraph or so trying to come up with some excuse for Simon's decisions, behavior, intelligence, and role. This isn't a game that was designed or promoted around "you're playing a person with a really low IQ, some sort of psychosis or cognition problems" (and such a game would be incredible!), but that's literally what I'm seeing people fall back on. It's really, really rough for a player to have to, in the first person, have "you" repeatedly fail at things, fail to understand things, and make poor decisions. All the different forms of total divorce from agency and engagement really makes me feel like Frictional wanted to make a first person movie, or a novel. Either of these would have worked much better. Oxxidation posted:disregarding the context of this statement, i'd argue that Simon is maybe the game industry's single most compelling argument in favor of silent protagonists I think part of the problem is too much of the game's activities depend on social interaction with other minds or "minds". Simon has to talk to other characters to move things along too frequently in the game as released. If the devs had made Simon mute (and the setting would made that easy to justify), what moments would have been lost? Simon also acts as an emotional crutch. He spends a lot of time doing stated horror, telling the player how they are supposed to feel about things. It's interesting to think about why this works in, say, Silent Hill 2, and not in SOMA. Is it because so much of it's vocal? Is it the subject matter? Is it because Simon's dumb? James isn't exactly a rocket scientist, and it could be argued that parts of the game revolve around him not getting what's going on...I think the distinction is that player understanding and James' understanding evolve at roughly the same pace for a much larger part of the game, until you get the big reveal and the previously established shared perspective is basically put in torsion. ...I should think about how parallel cognition works as an engine to generate identification with the player character. Having the player character thinking and realizing things at the same time as, or ahead of, the player, may help with establishing association with them.
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Oct 2, 2018 20:05
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Oxxidation posted:disregarding the context of this statement, i'd argue that Simon is maybe the game industry's single most compelling argument in favor of silent protagonists It helps that having no personality means the personality also can't be awful.
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Oct 2, 2018 20:06
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Discendo Vox posted:This isn't a game that was designed or promoted around "you're playing a person with a really low IQ, some sort of psychosis or cognition problems" (and such a game would be incredible!)
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Oct 2, 2018 20:08
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Remember that other multiplayer slasher game? Last Year? It got a trailer, and apparently exclusive to the Discord Store.
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Oct 2, 2018 20:15
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Coolguye posted:Hey kind of cribbing off this, did anyone ever play HEKTOR? I tried to play it for a bit but the game really didn't grab me in the first hour of play, it felt like a maze runner with a soft time limit due to the antipsychotics I had to keep popping so I bounced off hard. Does it get better at all? It gets much worse, the game should've been named MIGRAINE if anything. catlord posted:apparently exclusive to the Discord Store loving lol, just why
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Oct 2, 2018 20:17
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Yardbomb posted:loving lol, just why Interesting...Discord is hoping to use its voice and text chat userbase to set itself up as a potential giant-killer.
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Oct 2, 2018 20:25
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Discendo Vox posted:Interesting...Discord is hoping to use its voice and text chat userbase to set itself up as a potential giant-killer. And it's going to flounder and people will begrudgingly use it for the couple games locked away on it, same as ever.
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Oct 2, 2018 20:28
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catlord posted:Remember that other multiplayer slasher game? Last Year? It got a trailer, and apparently exclusive to the Discord Store. Worth noting, it's only exclusive to the Discord store for a time period. I think any independent developer knows that being brand-new-platform exclusive forever is giant death knell.
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Oct 2, 2018 20:33
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Discendo Vox posted:The decisions are just so inexplicable. I do know from past commentary and making of playthroughs that Frictional have a really...uneven...sense of design principles and workflow that's repeatedly become a huge obstacle in their design process. Some sort of series of cuts and revisions might explain some of those bad decisions. It's a company that's succeeded in significant part due to going really all in on sound design and visual design, but their writing and game design are incredibly underdeveloped by comparison. really it's because entertainment tends to be escapist in nature and losing the ability to project yourself in never bodes well James and the player only have suspicions of what the gently caress is going on before the climax of SH2. The story is paced and formatted well. You dont lose the escapist nature of the fantasy projection that you need it to work. By contrast Simon and the player have been repeatedly explained exactly what the gently caress is going to happen to him in the end and it still comes off as a shock to him and not you, severing the escapism and making you think hes a giant idiot, mostly because hes a giant idiot.
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Oct 2, 2018 20:53
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Discendo Vox posted:...I should think about how parallel cognition works as an engine to generate identification with the player character. Having the player character thinking and realizing things at the same time as, or ahead of, the player, may help with establishing association with them. Related to this (though not necessarily to horror), this is part of one of the better twists in Persona 5. Without getting TOO specific, though even the vague synopsis might be a bit of a spoiler... there's a character in the game that's very clearly a bad guy trying to gently caress you over. He acts like he's cooperating, even joining your party, but everything from his behavior to meta-stuff makes it scream "hello this dude's gonna betray you". Then he totally does, and it's almost frustrating, because it was obvious to you the player and now your character's in a poo poo situation that would be easily prevented if your character was as observant as you are... ...until the flashbacks begin, and it's revealed that your protagonist character DID know, started hashing out a plan to deal with it well in advance, the rest of your party is in on it, and you getting betrayed was actually part of YOUR plan to gently caress over the dude that's trying to gently caress you over. The player shifts gears from a slight, brief disconnect with their character, to immediately feeling clever because the protagonist was clever and the oh-so-satisfying resolution starts to take shape. The protagonist in P5 is, notably, not very talkative but for things the player has them say. This is one of the few times where what the player and the character know/are doing are not totally in sync, but it's used intentionally to a really powerful effect.
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Oct 2, 2018 20:56
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Lunatic Sledge posted:Related to this (though not necessarily to horror), this is part of one of the better twists in Persona 5. The only thing this really speaks to are the godawful standards for characterization in the RPG genre, or really video games as a whole.
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Oct 2, 2018 21:27
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Discendo Vox posted:Something I want to highlight, setting aside the novelty of the concepts involved; even the most strident defenses of SOMA online, including in this thread, have to spend a paragraph or so trying to come up with some excuse for Simon's decisions, behavior, intelligence, and role. This isn't a game that was designed or promoted around "you're playing a person with a really low IQ, some sort of psychosis or cognition problems" (and such a game would be incredible!), but that's literally what I'm seeing people fall back on. It's really, really rough for a player to have to, in the first person, have "you" repeatedly fail at things, fail to understand things, and make poor decisions. Oh, this is horseshit. You are literally arguing that Simon is mentally impaired because you dislike his characterization because you refuse to actually engage with it. Simon is a guy slowly dying of an incurable brain injury. The last thing he knows is that he's going for an experimental treatment that has a chance of helping him, and then he suddenly wakes up in a decrepit underwater research station populated entirely by robots that think they're people or weird techno-organic abominations. Then the one seemingly sane person he meets is also a robot and whoops, turns out Simon is a robot too! The actual Simon died centuries ago and this Simon is just the latest in a long line of AI constructs that have been used as testing platforms! And he's living on a doomed planet! And literally the only hope he has of escape is firing a computer into space! But hey, he doesn't make flawless decisions therefore he's the Worst Protagonist Ever. I realize everyone likes to think that in a stressful situation they would be completely calm and collected, but the reality is that most people aren't and consequently make poor decisions or ignore obvious signs. Simon is in an incredibly stressful situation and posters in this thread are claiming he's an idiot because he desperately grasps at a straw offered by a sociopath who's sole interest in life is making sure the ARK gets launched. quote:I think part of the problem is too much of the game's activities depend on social interaction with other minds or "minds". Simon has to talk to other characters to move things along too frequently in the game as released. If the devs had made Simon mute (and the setting would made that easy to justify), what moments would have been lost? All of Catherine's characterization, which relies on bouncing off of Simon and how she manipulates him? The brief philosophical discussions Simon has with her during transitional moments which lay out the game's themes? The dream sequence that makes it clear what WAU is doing to the people it captures, thus creating the argument that killing WAU is morally wrong? This is the video game equivalent of that one guy who argues "Well, you could have just gotten in an airplane and flown away from the monster in It Follows, therefore its a garbage movie."
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Oct 2, 2018 21:32
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1stGear posted:But hey, he doesn't make flawless decisions therefore he's the Worst Protagonist Ever. I realize everyone likes to think that in a stressful situation they would be completely calm and collected, but the reality is that most people aren't and consequently make poor decisions or ignore obvious signs.
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Oct 2, 2018 21:37
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Coolguye posted:hey kind of cribbing off this, did anyone ever play HEKTOR? i tried to play it for a bit but the game really didn't grab me in the first hour of play, it felt like a maze runner with a soft time limit due to the antipsychotics i had to keep popping so i bounced off hard. does it get better at all? It’s the loving worst. The sanity effects are nauseating, the procedural level generation means you just run forward until the game lets you progress, and there’s a hallway where you have to listen to a graphic rape be re-enacted.
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Oct 2, 2018 21:41
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Yardbomb posted:It gets much worse, the game should've been named MIGRAINE if anything. Too Shy Guy posted:It’s the loving worst. The sanity effects are nauseating, the procedural level generation means you just run forward until the game lets you progress, and there’s a hallway where you have to listen to a graphic rape be re-enacted. v glad i paid a mighty 1 dollar when it was on deep steam sale for it then thank you both
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Oct 2, 2018 21:42
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Discendo Vox posted:Something I want to highlight, setting aside the novelty of the concepts involved; even the most strident defenses of SOMA online, including in this thread, have to spend a paragraph or so trying to come up with some excuse for Simon's decisions, behavior, intelligence, and role. This isn't a game that was designed or promoted around "you're playing a person with a really low IQ, some sort of psychosis or cognition problems" (and such a game would be incredible!), but that's literally what I'm seeing people fall back on. It's really, really rough for a player to have to, in the first person, have "you" repeatedly fail at things, fail to understand things, and make poor decisions. No one's inventing anything. In the first scene where Simon meets Catherine, Simon says "How could anything possibly matter when you know you're a stupid robot in a stupid dead world" and Catherine's response amounts to "hey can you keep your poo poo together long enough to help me with this thing?" That is their relationship dynamic. Catherine calls Simon an rear end in a top hat at one point because Simon is, frequently, an rear end in a top hat. Catherine's open about being a copy and understands that, at one point referring to the actual human being Catherine. Simon on the other hand asks if he'll "have his hand back in the ark" like it's heaven because he really really needs it to be heaven. SOMA's not some sort of deep character study that requires thirteen replays beneath the blessing of the Blood Moon to understand what's happening, nor am I suggesting that. Quite the opposite - that it doesn't hide anything and pretty plainly states what it is and is about. It's ideas are neat and its approach to its ideas are neat, but it's ultimately very up front and straight forward about what it is. It certainly could have done a number of things better. The monster designs were neat but the stealth sections were ultimately a total waste, and the game was at its best when it just let you explore the stories of an almost completely dead world. Creating a Simon copy that was very clearly you the player character in full would have at least been interesting even if the story works well enough without it. catlord posted:Remember that other multiplayer slasher game? Last Year? It got a trailer, and apparently exclusive to the Discord Store. It looks neat, but man I wish it had better character design on the killer side. The hobo what stabs you and The janitor what looks like lovely undertaker are just some weak poo poo. Also Prison Bane. I forgot about Prison Bane. TGLT fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Oct 2, 2018 |
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Oct 2, 2018 22:24
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1stGear posted:Oh, this is horseshit. You are literally arguing that Simon is mentally impaired because you dislike his characterization because you refuse to actually engage with it. Not my argument. I am saying that other people, people who like the game, have to spend time trying to rationalize the problems with the character's responses, to the point of absurdity. Like you do! Which is a sign that something didn't work well. If people are continuously having to decide if the protagonist is some combination of desperate, an rear end in a top hat, and stupid to explain the gap that forms between them and the player, something is wrong. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Oct 2, 2018 |
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Oct 2, 2018 22:29
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Although this shouldn't be an excuse to constantly make gullible main characters all the time; I don't think Simon was especially stupid to "not get it" as far as how consciousness works with brain copies and in fact I would venture to say that most people in the world, even smart ones, wouldn't immediately get it. It goes completely against everything we have experienced and it's completely outside of the realm of our experiences after all. That isn't to say that you should always make characters who aren't in the knowhow of how their specific in game universe works; but I also don't think he's stupid for not getting this.
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Oct 2, 2018 22:41
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I had zero issues with Simon's characterization in SOMA and I always find it a little bewildering how much people dislike him. The entire plot of the game is a matter of perception and acceptance, and I had no problem believing Simon would respond to events differently and less rationally than I did. For me personally I think it added to the horror at times, trying to identify with Simon and imagining how clearly I would be able to think while evading creatures at the bottom of the ocean in a decaying installation. I thought the final scene was particularly heartbreaking, because I saw it coming and I just knew he would take it like he did.
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Oct 2, 2018 22:48
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TGLT posted:It looks neat, but man I wish it had better character design on the killer side. The hobo what stabs you and The janitor what looks like lovely undertaker are just some weak poo poo. Also Prison Bane. I forgot about Prison Bane. I've seen so much negative on the killer designs pretty much from the very start, I'm surprised they didn't take one or more back to the drawing board or at least try and spice them up a bit between then and now.
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Oct 2, 2018 22:54
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Discendo Vox posted:Something I want to highlight, setting aside the novelty of the concepts involved; even the most strident defenses of SOMA online, including in this thread, have to spend a paragraph or so trying to come up with some excuse for Simon's decisions, behavior, intelligence, and role. This isn't a game that was designed or promoted around "you're playing a person with a really low IQ, some sort of psychosis or cognition problems" (and such a game would be incredible!), but that's literally what I'm seeing people fall back on. It's really, really rough for a player to have to, in the first person, have "you" repeatedly fail at things, fail to understand things, and make poor decisions. The way I deal with Simon is to pretend he doesn't exist, tone him out and ignore him... that is my excuse.The reason why I like SOMA in spite of the awful plot is because I'm willing to take the atmosphere above all else. I'll agree though if you want to talk about the story and plot it's crap besides the setting. I would not call it a masterpiece of gaming or anything like that. They just happen to cover one of my basic fears very well despite the plot. Hell for me would be being stuck a mile under the ocean in the dark forever.
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Oct 2, 2018 22:59
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1stGear posted:offered by a sociopath hilarious that you go on a tear about misunderstanding characterization and then sneak this nugget in there
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Oct 2, 2018 23:08
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DropsySufferer posted:The way I deal with Simon is to pretend he doesn't exist, tone him out and ignore him... that is my excuse.The reason why I like SOMA in spite of the awful plot is because I'm willing to take the atmosphere above all else. I'll agree though if you want to talk about the story and plot it's crap besides the setting. I would not call it a masterpiece of gaming or anything like that. They just happen to cover one of my basic fears very well despite the plot. Hell for me would be being stuck a mile under the ocean in the dark forever. Frictional do atmosphere better than perhaps anyone. I really, really wish they'd team up with folks who could help with other core aspects of game design.
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Oct 2, 2018 23:13
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Oxxidation posted:hilarious that you go on a tear about misunderstanding characterization and then sneak this nugget in there If your primary reaction to people killing themselves over your project is "Man, this is really going to mess up my project", you aren't a good person.
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Oct 2, 2018 23:42
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Goons don't understand human psychology, news at 11.
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Oct 2, 2018 23:59
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Too Shy Guy posted:I had zero issues with Simon's characterization in SOMA and I always find it a little bewildering how much people dislike him. The entire plot of the game is a matter of perception and acceptance, and I had no problem believing Simon would respond to events differently and less rationally than I did. It's just replacing having a real counterargument with insulting everyone who didn't like the game. You know, your bog-standard, stereotypical internet idiody. Personally, I'm of the opinion that the simple fact that so many people are even complaining about the characterization at all is sufficient reason to believe that there's some kind of problem there, whatever it is in specific, at least as far as the people complaining are concerned. Cardiovorax fucked around with this message at 00:04 on Oct 3, 2018 |
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Oct 3, 2018 00:01
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Cardiovorax posted:Nobody wants realistic video game characters. I disagree.
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Oct 3, 2018 00:05
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Cardiovorax posted:The problem is more the way 1stGear is framing that as the "realistic" option for people who "don't want to pretend they're toughguys." That's because this is bullshit. Nobody wants realistic video game characters. Realistic is the SOMA protagonist curling up in a corner and wibbling to himself until the base implodes. Realistic is the 99.999% of humanity that die in a zombie apocalypse, which the average person (meaning you, me and most everyone else) would do. That's not who you want to play, though, or who want to play, or even who 1stGear wants to play. We all want to play the exceptional kind of person who not only survives in that kind of situation, but succeeds, because otherwise there is no game. I do. I love roguelikes where you mostly die and never finish the game. I think Hide and Shriek is a good video game that is worth more than a bajillion Destinies because it tried something novel, even if it's really not that great in the end. Give me the fresh weird dumb poo poo. Give me the video where the main character breaks down in a corner, and then dies. Let's ignore that in fact people do brave or at least desperate poo poo especially when it's their last choice, give me the video game where you play the coward who refuses to do anything and runs away, and then dies. Give me the video game where you only get one life period ever after which the game locks you out, and it's the zombie apocalypse. Give me the zombie apocalypse video game where I can play a stupid idiot who dies. Battle Royale - One Shot and Then You're Dead and If You Win The World's Dead So Have Fun Idiot.
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Oct 3, 2018 00:08
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