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fez_machine posted:
Pray tell me where are the adolescent concerns in Jingo, or in Night Watch. Hand a Discworld book to a teenager and half of the themes or humor would go right over their head. Or take Mort. Yeah, an exploration of death, that's for kids! Mars4523 fucked around with this message at 09:38 on Jul 6, 2016 |
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Jul 6, 2016 09:36
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fez_machine posted:I loathe GRRM, a lot, but his work tends to be very rooted in various adolescent concerns, there's a reason why many of his protagonists are teenagers or in their early twenties. There are protagonists who are much older, like Tyrion or Jaime, but the prime emotional movers tend to be young. FTFY. Someone in this thread is probably sporting a neckbeard and fedora. You also missed to call Mieville FANTASY FAN THRASH. Also, fantasy in general is mostly about protagonists that are teenagers/early twenties. Something, something about target audience.
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Jul 6, 2016 09:39
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Mars4523 posted:You really enjoy being wrong, don't you? "Pray tell me" when you missed me citing Night Watch as an example of mature work from Pratchett. Jingo is a bit of a line ball, but a key part of the adolescent sensibility is adult concerns without adult complexity. So it's very simplistic politics and cross-cultural analysis is pretty adolescent. As a teen, the last time I read and enjoyed Jingo (I would say it's a good book), I definitely got all the cross-dressing while infiltrating jokes, the boots stealing/futility of war and hatred themes, and the foreigners make you do disgusting things for their own amusement jokes.
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Jul 6, 2016 09:46
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Cardiac posted:FTFY. Someone in this thread is probably sporting a neckbeard and fedora. Sorry for the double post, but Mieville is very good and people should read his books. Yeah, the target audience for fantasy is kind of regressive and escapist. I wonder why I'm getting people real mad for just suggesting that Pratchett is a good author but maybe not the best?
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Jul 6, 2016 09:52
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Your opinions are kinda poo poo.
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Jul 6, 2016 10:01
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Klungar posted:My uncle gave these to me when I was a tween, but I couldn't get past the attempted rape by the main character near the beginning of the first one. Does it get better from there? Also guy knows like five verbs and just cycles through them. Rasped, clenched, gagged, then all over again. andrew smash posted:Zelazny pro read list: Lord of Light, Creatures of Light and Darkness, Isle of the Dead, This Immortal, The Doors of His Face The Lamps of His Mouth, then maybe Amber 1-5 if you want to keep going. Speaking of, one name that hasn't sounded yet is Ray Bradbury. He's not really a fantasy writer, but that's because he really occupies his own slot somewhere between that and magical realism. Doesn't have a series, but some of his short stories form cycles. Heartily seconding Bridge of Birds (duh), John Crowley and China Miéville who is practically and politically (which is totally the same, right) a complete twat but possesses a wonderful imagination.
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Jul 6, 2016 10:05
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Today, I found out that China Miéville is one of Theodore Beale's favourite SF/F authors. I'm having a hard time with this.
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Jul 6, 2016 10:15
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fez_machine posted:If you want Literary fantasy here are a few suggestions (beyond this anything published by the Fantasy Masterworks imprint is a good starting point): Am I doing it right?
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Jul 6, 2016 10:16
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chrisoya posted:Today, I found out that China Miéville is one of Theodore Beale's favourite SF/F authors. But Melville's a literal cultural Marxist. How does that even work? Jedit posted:Am I doing it right? I'd say so! Gets my thumbs up. But seriously find a fault with me marking Malazaan and the others as Fantasy Fan Trash. fez_machine fucked around with this message at 10:22 on Jul 6, 2016 |
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Jul 6, 2016 10:20
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chrisoya posted:Today, I found out that China Miéville is one of Theodore Beale's favourite SF/F authors. What if Beale got Chuck Tingle nominated because he's an unironic fan?
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Jul 6, 2016 10:20
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fez_machine posted:But Melville's a literal
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Jul 6, 2016 10:21
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fez_machine posted:But seriously find a fault with me marking Malazaan and the others as Fantasy Fan Trash. They're not. Especially Discworld, as you've had explained to you with all the success of trying to fill a black hole by throwing in meringues. Trash fiction doesn't try to say anything meaningful, doesn't try to create investment or development in the characters, and doesn't try to build a narrative beyond the One Cool Idea the author thinks he had. It's not required to like all fiction, but dismissing anything you don't like as trash is lazy criticism and anti-intellectual.
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Jul 6, 2016 10:38
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Jedit posted:They're not. Especially Discworld, as you've had explained to you with all the success of trying to fill a black hole by throwing in meringues. Trash fiction doesn't try to say anything meaningful, doesn't try to create investment or development in the characters, and doesn't try to build a narrative beyond the One Cool Idea the author thinks he had. It's not required to like all fiction, but dismissing anything you don't like as trash is lazy criticism and anti-intellectual. One small correction: I didn't say Discworld was trash, I said it was "Literally For Children". Maybe, just, maybe I used too much hyperbole when I said "Trash". I should have written "Junk". fez_machine fucked around with this message at 10:44 on Jul 6, 2016 |
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Jul 6, 2016 10:41
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fez_machine posted:I guess because all taste is subjective there's no point listening to other people at all nor voicing our opinions. There's absolutely nothing shared or in common between anybody or any piece of fiction, it's all subjective. Nothing can be compared because we are physically incapable of experiencing another person's subjectivity. Yes well your opinion of Terry Pratchett was voiced as 'doesn't quite reach that other level' or 'up against the best of the genre doesn't rank' which were some compelling arguments that I couldn't hope to match. 'Subjectively he is the best' is certainly far short of either of those things you said about him.
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Jul 6, 2016 10:43
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"Literally for children" sort of implies, well, literally for children. And outside of his YA stuff, I mean, no, none of it's literally for children. It's adult fantasy, it was written as adult fantasy, it is sold as adult fantasy. Most of it is appropriate for children, sure, and most can readily be related to by children, but the fact that it can be well-consumed by children does not make it literally for children. And this is me being absolutely pedantic, of course, but oh well.
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Jul 6, 2016 10:47
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Chairchucker posted:Yes well your opinion of Terry Pratchett was voiced as 'doesn't quite reach that other level' or 'up against the best of the genre doesn't rank' which were some compelling arguments that I couldn't hope to match. 'Subjectively he is the best' is certainly far short of either of those things you said about him. Again I have just one small correction, I said against the best of non-genre fiction he doesn't rank, so y'know against Nabakov or Austen.
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Jul 6, 2016 10:48
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fez_machine posted:Again I have just one small correction, I said against the best of non-genre fiction he doesn't rank, so y'know against Nabakov or Austen. It would not be inaccurate to say that Jane Austen was the Terry Pratchett of her day. Northanger Abbey is a straight up parody of the gothic novel, and all of her books have satirical commentary on society. You're quite literally only saying that Austen is better than Pratchett because she wrote her books 200 years ago
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Jul 6, 2016 11:25
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fez_machine posted:Again I have just one small correction, I said against the best of non-genre fiction he doesn't rank, so y'know against Nabakov or Austen. Oh OK because in your opinion but not backed up by anything, he's not as good as writers in a completely different genre, he can't be considered amongst the best in the genre being talked about, cool. Oh also another correction to my original point, I missed the other opinion you voiced of Sir Terry Pratchett, that his Discworld books were 'Literally for Children', a thing that, with the exception of the Tiffany Aching books, Maurice and his Educated Rodents, and maybe one or two others, is categorically not true, as others have mentioned. But sure, me posting my opinion was worthy of your little rant.
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Jul 6, 2016 11:28
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Jedit posted:It would not be inaccurate to say that Jane Austen was the Terry Pratchett of her day. Northanger Abbey is a straight up parody of the gothic novel, and all of her books have satirical commentary on society. You're quite literally only saying that Austen is better than Pratchett because she wrote her books 200 years ago No, it's because they are better written. Northanger Abbey is a subtle parody of the gothic novel, Pratchett's parodies have the subtlety of a sledge hammer, still funny. Austen's best works aren't parodies though, just as Prachett's best aren't either. Chairchucker posted:Oh OK because in your opinion but not backed up by anything, he's not as good as writers in a completely different genre, he can't be considered amongst the best in the genre being talked about, cool. I've posted more detail on my opinion of Terry Pratchett than 1. they're not as good as the best literature has to offer and 2. they are written with an audience of children in mind, but yeah I guess those two points about sum up my opinion. The only thing that's actually annoyed me so far in this several pages long derail, was you invoking subjectivity which is the coward's defence against opinion and criticism.
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Jul 6, 2016 11:49
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fez_machine posted:
Not sure what this is supposed to actually mean, how can subjectivity be a 'coward's defence' against opinion, a thing that is clearly subjective?
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Jul 6, 2016 11:56
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anilEhilated posted:China Miéville who is practically and politically (which is totally the same, right) a complete twat but possesses a wonderful imagination. I attended a lecture given by Mieville a few months ago. When I first saw him, I thought he was part of security because of his shaved head, his suit, and the dozen earrings in one ear that looked like an earpiece at first glance. He talked about the complications of how race gets depicted in fiction, using specifics which I can't remember, just that there's no easy solution because the obvious answers have different problems. I asked him if someone could create a society with different cultures without direct 1:1 parallels to real stereotypes and races, and he said that readers will always see parallels regardless of the author's intent. Honestly, nothing about how he acted or what he said struck me as the least bit twattish. 
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Jul 6, 2016 12:02
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Solitair posted:I attended a lecture given by Mieville a few months ago. When I first saw him, I thought he was part of security because of his shaved head, his suit, and the dozen earrings in one ear that looked like an earpiece at first glance.
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Jul 6, 2016 12:36
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anilEhilated posted:Admittedly, I've never seen or heard him live, just going off his writing; and I think he has some good points when he talks books (like the idea happy endings are problematic with fantasy because the last thing you want to do in a story that alters reality is reaffirm the status quo) but I still believe that whenever the word "politics" is uttered, his eyes catch a mainacal glint. Maybe it's just politics related to Marxist issues like class and economics. I wish I could find video of the lecture I attended (University of Richmond, April 19 2016) so I can remember more specifics.
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Jul 6, 2016 13:00
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Drifter posted:Phillip Pullman's Dark Materials trilogy is REALLY good, starting with the Golden Compass. - it was popular enough to have a big screen movie (that was absolute poo poo) made from it, too. If anybody does decide to read these books at some point, be forewarned that as the series progresses, they become less and less about telling a story, and more about how awful the Catholic church it. It gets bad enough that by the end of the third book the entire Church is just cartoonishly evil. The series ends with the tween protagonists killing God and then jacking off by stroking each other's spirit animals
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Jul 6, 2016 13:04
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Internet Wizard posted:If anybody does decide to read these books at some point, be forewarned that as the series progresses, they become less and less about telling a story, and more about how awful the Catholic church it. It gets bad enough that by the end of the third book the entire Church is just cartoonishly evil. The series ends with the tween protagonists killing God and then jacking off by stroking each other's spirit animals It's even worse than that. The first event you describe is so underplayed as to be absurd. They Kill God and barely even seem to notice they did it.
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Jul 6, 2016 13:35
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You know, Walter Moers has written some fantastic fantasy books. 13.5 Lives of Captain Bluebear and the rest of his Zamonia series is well worth a read. They share a similar whimsy of Dr Seuss, but are novels.
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Jul 6, 2016 14:17
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Jedit posted:It's even worse than that. The first event you describe is so underplayed as to be absurd. They Kill God and barely even seem to notice they did it. The first is genuinely good, though, fairly light on the philosophising, lots of fantastic action, great twist at the end. But I'd suggest not reading further - 2 has some good parts, sadly those are the ones that don't deal with the two main protagonists, and 3 is just a bloated, disjointed mess. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Jul 6, 2016 |
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Jul 6, 2016 16:10
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chrisoya posted:Today, I found out that China Miéville is one of Theodore Beale's favourite SF/F authors. Liberals can afford to be a lot pickier with the politics of their authors than conservatives can.
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Jul 6, 2016 16:30
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The Shannara tv show is on Netflix so I decided to give it a try. Its been a long, long time since I read the books and I only read the original trilogy, but I don't remember it literally being set in post apocalyptic Seattle is that a thing that I missed when I was young?
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Jul 6, 2016 16:40
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Reason posted:The Shannara tv show is on Netflix so I decided to give it a try. Its been a long, long time since I read the books and I only read the original trilogy, but I don't remember it literally being set in post apocalyptic Seattle is that a thing that I missed when I was young? That stems from Brooks' The Word and the Void series, a modern(ish) day prequel series that leads into Shannara.
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Jul 6, 2016 16:49
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anilEhilated posted:To be fair, neither does the reader. That book is half a book too long. Isn't that the point? Been years since I read it but god is ancient and barely alive and was never divine. His angels usurped him long ago.
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Jul 6, 2016 17:42
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Ornamented Death posted:That stems from Brooks' The Word and the Void series, a modern(ish) day prequel series that leads into Shannara. Ah ok. God this show is bad.
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Jul 6, 2016 18:20
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Reason posted:Ah ok. God this show is bad. Just like the book!!!!!
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Jul 6, 2016 18:37
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Strategic Tea posted:Isn't that the point? Been years since I read it but god is ancient and barely alive and was never divine. His angels usurped him long ago. I admit I haven't read it in a while though so it's quite possible I blanked out the deicide.
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Jul 6, 2016 18:47
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anilEhilated posted:I meant the climactic battle with the usurper which takes about half a page and takes place roughly two thirds into the book. I don't remember God ever being present or relevant to anything in that series. It's been a while since I've read that, though.
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Jul 6, 2016 19:52
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Reason posted:The Shannara tv show is on Netflix so I decided to give it a try. Its been a long, long time since I read the books and I only read the original trilogy, but I don't remember it literally being set in post apocalyptic Seattle is that a thing that I missed when I was young? It's not just in the prequel series-- it's not really played up in Elfstones but as the series goes on it becomes clearer and clearer that it's post-apocalyptic in some way or another, so I can see having to address that right away when moving to a visual medium. I think it could have had a neat effect. Shame it apparently didn't?
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Jul 6, 2016 20:29
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Mars4523 posted:I don't think he's referred to as God. He's just a very old, feeble, and possibly senile spirit who, IIRC, one of the main characters takes a moment to comfort as he dies.
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Jul 6, 2016 20:55
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neongrey posted:It's not just in the prequel series-- it's not really played up in Elfstones but as the series goes on it becomes clearer and clearer that it's post-apocalyptic in some way or another, so I can see having to address that right away when moving to a visual medium. I think it could have had a neat effect. Shame it apparently didn't? I just plowed through and finished Mark Lawrence's Prince of Thorns and Prince of Fools trilogies and it also does the whole in the future where humans "Builders" hosed up big time with an atomic war and implied loving with constants of reality (supercollider) allowing "magic" to happen and humans have reverted to feudal style fantasy world, with remnants of reinforced concrete buildings being used as castles and AI as ghosts in the world. I enjoyed that those a lot and Fools was really good, so now I'm having "drat what now..." feels
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Jul 7, 2016 02:06
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Xaris posted:Yeah I vaguely remember that though even as a kid I thought that poo poo was kind of poorly written. Does his later works get better? I think I only read elf stones or something. I only ever read the first seven-- they steadily improved, they were decent enough for what I was consuming as a teenager, but I doubt they'd hold up super well now. I'm not sure how good the more recent stuff is. But he's sort of an artifact of when he started writing, I think.
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Jul 7, 2016 02:18
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DACK FAYDEN posted:It's implied that he's God because his carriage-crystal-case-thing was being escorted by a cadre of angels in the middle of a raging battle when they could be fighting instead, but there's no explicit confirmation that I remember. You're right, no explicit reference but it is very heavily implied. Like to the degree where if you're paying attention to the themes of the trilogy, there is very little room to miss it.
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Jul 7, 2016 02:56
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