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Mid-Life Crisis posted:I’m not sure how a cease fire is actually beneficial to the complicated situation at hand. These are two militaries at war. Hamas wants to hide and just restart again. All of this is predicated on Israel's ability to continue subjecting the Palestinian people to apartheid and genocide. Israel's goal is to kill or drive them out of Gaza. Even if they managed to miraculously eliminate Hamas without harming a single non-Hamas Palestinian, they would just go on to continue the displacement and genocide of Palestinians. This is not two militaries at war, it is one side slowly strangling a captive population to death, and the other side resisting by any means available. Also you might want to get your facts straight because this recent attack did not happen on "yon kippur".
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Oct 19, 2023 15:01
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:The difference between other wars and this one is the overt willingness to use it’s own citizens as fodder to advance the war effort that Hamas employs. Armies that actually defend the will of the people wouldn’t stoop that low on such a large scale. Bad news for this argument: https://archive.ph/zS3Kf quote:Increasingly, Ukrainians are confronting an uncomfortable truth: The military’s understandable impulse to defend against Russian attacks could be putting civilians in the crosshairs. Virtually every neighborhood in most cities has become militarized, some more than others, making them potential targets for Russian forces trying to take out Ukrainian defenses. Pretty sure the difference between this war and other wars is Israel’s willingness to bomb civilians and civilian areas, and the west’s willingness to support them in doing so.
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Oct 19, 2023 15:04
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:There’s no persuading posters trying to turn I/P into a black and white issue. For daring to discuss the intricacies that leaders around the world are navigating right now I’ve been red texted for giving the explanations for how Biden is taking his stance and drawing his line in the sand right now. Maybe show a little more basic understanding of and empathy towards the situation if you want anyone to take you seriously? So far, you've shown little but arrogant ignorance - it's not surprising you're getting pushback.
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Oct 19, 2023 15:05
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:There’s no persuading posters trying to turn I/P into a black and white issue. For daring to discuss the intricacies that leaders around the world are navigating right now I’ve been red texted for giving the explanations for how Biden is taking his stance and drawing his line in the sand right now. Why do you think Biden sent the 2nd Navy Carrier group to the Eastern Mediterranean?
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Oct 19, 2023 15:06
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Fuschia tude posted:The UN Guiding Principles on Internal Displacement in fact defines Internally Displaced Persons as "persons or groups of persons who have been forced or obliged to flee or to leave their homes or places of habitual residence, in particular as a result of or in order to avoid the effects of armed conflict, situations of generalized violence, violations of human rights or natural or human-made disasters, and who have not crossed an internationally recognized state border." (source) Not only are they not mutually exclusive as you claimed, the former is in fact an absolute subset of the latter, by definition, according to your own source! ICC has made exceptions such as pertinent to this situation. https://www.ictj.org/sites/default/files/ICTJ-Research-Brief-Displacement-Criminal-Justice-Andreu-Guzman.pdf It may unanimously be considered a crime against humanity, but not necessarily a war crime. Which is the ground those supporting Israel are going to stand on. As mentioned earlier, if Israel tries to move the borders after ground invasion, the shaky argument falls apart.
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Oct 19, 2023 15:06
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brain smoothie posted:Do you guys think that if it was inappropriate and antisemitic to use more broadly, perhaps Alan Dershowitz would be pretty likely to call it out as such? Of course not. There is no correlation between what Dershowitz says and the truth, and a negative correlation between what's inappropriate and what he's likely to call out. If you actually asked him, of course he would say it's antisemitic to accuse Israel of blood libel, because he's Alan Dershowitz. Don't use him to set any standard.
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Oct 19, 2023 15:08
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:If they don’t cross an international border it’s recognized by the United Nations as “internal displacement”, not “forced displacement”, which therefore doesn’t make it a war crime. It’s still an ethnic cleansing. And the US government can say all it wants about opposing genocide, but its actions speaks louder than its words. They keep protecting and funding a genocidal apartheid regime in Israel and vetoed a UN resolution that would have created a cease fire
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Oct 19, 2023 15:09
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Fister Roboto posted:All of this is predicated on Israel's ability to continue subjecting the Palestinian people to apartheid and genocide. Israel's goal is to kill or drive them out of Gaza. Even if they managed to miraculously eliminate Hamas without harming a single non-Hamas Palestinian, they would just go on to continue the displacement and genocide of Palestinians. This is not two militaries at war, it is one side slowly strangling a captive population to death, and the other side resisting by any means available. I mean, it's still two militaries at war. I think it really needs to be emphasized that Hamas is the legitimate government and military of Gaza, they are not terrorists, jihadis, radical islamists or "fighters" The explicit framing of Hamas as a terrorist organization is one of the ways that the west dehumanizes the people of the Gaza strip and enables their genocide. I know that's not what you are doing here, but I still thought this should be said Fister Roboto posted:Also you might want to get your facts straight because this recent attack did not happen on "yon kippur". But, soft! what light through Yon Kippur breaks? It is the east, and Palestine is the sun
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Oct 19, 2023 15:12
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I haven't seen this posted so far but it's new from Al-Jaz's digital investigation team and, for me at least, is the most compelling interpretation of evidence so far (only in so far as it debunks the idea that it was a Palestinian group's rocket demonstrated by evidence that Israel has put forward). It hasn't mounted a competing theory but I think it points more towards an Israeli strike. https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1714984258358391057 ummel posted:This doctor is a hero and a saint, and I'm not trying to infer anything in particular. Sterile, medical grade vinegar is always preferred for the sterility, but vinegar and bleach are commonly used in wound care procedures (not together lol) when the infection isn't deep and you're getting regular treatment/debridement of the wound. I've seen posts from orgs about them running out of antibiotics and supplies, so this is probably all they have left, regardless of how deep the wound is. Even if supplies will now come in from Egypt, will they even be able to make it all the way north to the hospitals he's at? I can't imagine a truck convoy not being bombed by drones, assuming the roads are even clear enough. Absolute hero. I can't imagine the trauma he's going to be living with if he makes it out alive. This is epochal non-combatant bravery. He's been tracking the steady stream of diminishing supplies. First they ran out of the common antiseptic compound (whose name I forget) so they started using soap. Clearly they're out of soap. The wounds he's dealing with must be horrific. The hospital itself cannot be a sterile place anymore. People must be screaming and moaning constantly. They're operating without anaesthetic. Children are both wounded but extraordinarily traumatised and in shock. There's barely room to move. Concrete dust must be all over the place. Truly apocalyptic conditions. Reminds me of Stalingrad/Leningrad civilian accounts.
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Oct 19, 2023 15:16
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:If they don’t cross an international border it’s recognized by the United Nations as “internal displacement”, not “forced displacement”, which therefore doesn’t make it a war crime. Jesus christ
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Oct 19, 2023 15:16
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:ICC has made exceptions such as pertinent to this situation. https://www.ictj.org/sites/default/files/ICTJ-Research-Brief-Displacement-Criminal-Justice-Andreu-Guzman.pdf Where are the doctors supposed to move their operation to, and how?
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Oct 19, 2023 15:17
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Engorged Pedipalps posted:I mean, it's still two militaries at war. I think it really needs to be emphasized that Hamas is the legitimate government and military of Gaza, they are not terrorists, jihadis, radical islamists or "fighters" hamas literally launched a coup in 2007 to get rid of their political rivals within the Palestinian electoral system and there hasn't being an election in gaza for 17 years, their legitimacy is dubious at best
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Oct 19, 2023 15:20
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:It may unanimously be considered a crime against humanity, but not necessarily a war crime. Wow you really did find a way to make an "it's actually ephebophilia" style argument.
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Oct 19, 2023 15:20
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Typo posted:hamas literally launched a coup in 2007 to get rid of their political rivals within the Palestinian electoral system and there hasn't being an election in gaza for 17 years, their legitimacy is dubious at best It's more accurate to say that Fatah tried and failed to coup Hamas with US and Israeli support after Hamas won that election. Say what you will about them, they do have a more authentic claim to legitimacy than any other political entity in Gaza.
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Oct 19, 2023 15:23
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:ICC has made exceptions such as pertinent to this situation. https://www.ictj.org/sites/default/files/ICTJ-Research-Brief-Displacement-Criminal-Justice-Andreu-Guzman.pdf Even if they are right, it's hardly a justification for committing it.
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Oct 19, 2023 15:25
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:ICC has made exceptions such as pertinent to this situation. https://www.ictj.org/sites/default/files/ICTJ-Research-Brief-Displacement-Criminal-Justice-Andreu-Guzman.pdf Once again, the very source you cite says "The crime of forced displacement is a notion that comes from international law. Indeed, an international legal framework has developed with the instruments and jurisprudence to criminally prosecute forced displacement as a war crime or a crime against humanity, whether the displacement in question is internal or across international borders." Thus, contrary to your claim that "internal displacement" is defined as exclusive to "forced displacement", it is in fact a subset of it. And despite your claim that the former is a crime against humanity, not a war crime (and another implication that these are similarly mutually exclusive classes), it in fact states "The treatment of forced displacement—especially internal displacement—as a crime is the result of a long process in which the jurisprudence of international tribunals has played an essential role. Despite the absence of the crime of forced displacement from its statute, the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda (ICTR) addressed displacement through the crime against humanity of “inhuman acts,” while the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia’s (ICTY) statute did include deportation and the transfer of civilians as war crimes, and deportation as a crime against humanity." (emphasis mine)
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Oct 19, 2023 15:29
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VitalSigns posted:Is quibbling about whether an action is a war crime or merely sparkling crimes against humanity particularly solid ground to stand on either way? I’m not advocating for any side. I’m discussing the shaky justifications western leaders must be sticking to in order to justify their current stance.
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Oct 19, 2023 15:42
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brain smoothie posted:Bad news for this argument: March 2022, for context. Hong XiuQuan posted:Absolute hero. I can't imagine the trauma he's going to be living with if he makes it out alive. This is epochal non-combatant bravery. Chlorhexidine, basically medical grade soap. It's what they use now instead of "antibacterial" soap because it doesn't cause resistance to eventually rise. It would almost always be sterile for what he's using it for. The downside to using regular soap is that it usually isn't sterile. Might not have bacteria growing in it, but fungal spores, etc. can be present. So when you're doing surgery and you sew up, you may seed different infections behind that can be even harder to treat than bacterial.
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Oct 19, 2023 15:43
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:I’m not advocating for any side. I’m discussing the shaky justifications western leaders must be sticking to in order to justify their current stance. Where are the doctors supposed to move their operation to, and how?
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Oct 19, 2023 15:46
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:I’m not advocating for any side. I’m discussing the shaky justifications western leaders must be sticking to in order to justify their current stance. Where and how should the doctors move the overflowing hospitals full of people? Answer the question you little coward (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 19, 2023 15:48
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Why should Israel be able to force the closure of hospitals at will under threat of murder?
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Oct 19, 2023 15:56
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Darth Walrus posted:Say what you will about them, they do have a more authentic claim to legitimacy than any other political entity in Gaza. They haven't faced the electorate since 2006. Their claim to legitimacy expired long ago.
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Oct 19, 2023 15:59
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tagesschau posted:They haven't faced the electorate since 2006. Their claim to legitimacy expired long ago. I mean, yeah, but 'we haven't held elections since 2006 because the last time we competed in and won one, the governing party tried to coup us and replace us with a Mossad torturer' is a pretty good excuse.
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Oct 19, 2023 16:04
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https://twitter.com/mualphaxi/status/1714853498951540756 It's always funny when journalists are perplexed whenever they see polls of trust in media and are shocked that nobody trusts them. Edit: link to article https://archive.ph/XiUQx
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Oct 19, 2023 16:06
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tagesschau posted:They haven't faced the electorate since 2006. Their claim to legitimacy expired long ago. They can't have legitimate elections under the current regime for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is the virtual guarantee that the United States and Israel will meddle in their election process We used "free and fair" elections as a way to install compliant governments all over South America, you can virtually guarantee that we would do the same in Palestine
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Oct 19, 2023 16:14
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LGD posted:Yes, that is in fact the specific, and specifically debunked, claim I've been responding to the entire time, and not whatever made up nonsense people seem to want to attribute to me because I object to people spreading genocidal propaganda. When was this debunked? The head of Israeli Search and Rescue (Golan Vach) said he had personally seen a baby with the head cut off. https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/unverified-allegations-beheaded-babies-israel-hamas-war-inflame-social-rcna119902
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Oct 19, 2023 16:24
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NovemberMike posted:When was this debunked? The head of Israeli Search and Rescue (Golan Vach) said he had personally seen a baby with the head cut off. Did you read the article? quote:On Wednesday, a spokesman for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told CNN that babies and toddlers were found with their “heads decapitated” in southern Israel after Hamas’ attack. By Thursday morning, an Israeli official told CNN the government had not confirmed claims of the beheadings.
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Oct 19, 2023 16:35
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Darth Walrus posted:I mean, yeah, but 'we haven't held elections since 2006 because the last time we competed in and won one, the governing party tried to coup us and replace us with a Mossad torturer' is a pretty good excuse. Engorged Pedipalps posted:They can't have legitimate elections under the current regime for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is the virtual guarantee that the United States and Israel will meddle in their election process This approach makes Hamas' claim to legitimacy non-falsifiable. Very strong "the lurkers support me in e-mail" energy.
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Oct 19, 2023 16:36
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:I’m not advocating for any side. I’m discussing the shaky justifications western leaders must be sticking to in order to justify their current stance. Yes, you are advocating for one side. You clearly stated that hospitals were a "shroud of righteousness" aka fake hospitals and you want the doctors and patients to leave but won't respond about how to do so. If you "aren't advocating for both sides, then please outline how you think Israel is equally bad. Edit: Please be clear though, when I have questioned you on supporting war crimes, wanting hospitals to be bombed, and saying ghoulish things in general I AM NOT taking a side re: you versus all of the other people pointing out how horrendous you are. I am impartial and merely making observations and asking questions. The Sean fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 16:37
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There were supposed to be elections in Palestine in 2021. Fatah cancelled them
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Oct 19, 2023 16:41
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Tortilla Maker posted:Did you read the article? Yes? The state does not confirm or deny but individuals that would have reasonably seen it have seen it? Are we going to turn around and say that the only confirmation we trust is an Israeli spokesman?
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Oct 19, 2023 16:41
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tagesschau posted:This approach makes Hamas' claim to legitimacy non-falsifiable. Very strong "the lurkers support me in e-mail" energy. It's falsifiable if there's another governing entity within Gaza with a stronger claim to legitimacy. Based on available evidence, there pretty clearly isn't.
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Oct 19, 2023 16:43
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NovemberMike posted:Yes? The state does not confirm or deny but individuals that would have reasonably seen it have seen it? Are we going to turn around and say that the only confirmation we trust is an Israeli spokesman? "Some guy said something, we can't confirm it and aren't going to bother to investigate" is not exactly evidence unless you're predisposed to want to believe it.
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Oct 19, 2023 16:47
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tagesschau posted:This approach makes Hamas' claim to legitimacy non-falsifiable. Yes. Private Witt posted:Link to this? This would be the first hard evidence that could support that it was the Israelis. https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/statu...ingawful.com%2F I can't find the original live stream of this at the moment but I watched about 20 minutes of this recorded broadcast elsewhere online and can confirm there was an Israeli bombing run going on in the area with many similar fireballs as you can see in this compilation It is a fact that the IOF were conducting operations in the area with high explosive bombs, they hit multiple targets in the area both before and after the hospital
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Oct 19, 2023 16:48
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The Sean posted:Yes, you are advocating for one side. You clearly stated that hospitals were a "shroud of righteousness" aka fake hospitals and you want the doctors and patients to leave but won't respond about how to do so. What I am pointing out is that physicians running the hospital are crossing a line between Hippocratic oath and Geneva protections when the reality is of hospitals being used as headquarters for militia and cover for missile/rockets/whatever and total clearance of the area of all civilians (internal displacement) has been made patently clear so as to avoid even further harm in the ground war which is mounting up right now. Then point out that the west must only be supporting this in so far that they allow for passage to the south and they allow for humanitarian aid in the south. The latter they aren’t providing right now, which is undermining the support the west is giving them right now. Ref: Biden’s own statements the last two days. Bibis refusal to Biden’s request to allow aid to the south is quite embarrassing for Biden from all sides he is facing right now. Pretty embarrassing he is getting snuffed by everyone in a vain trip right now. If he comes back without Israel making any concessions or Israel crossing the shaky justifications they’re skirting as is, I don’t see how he can survive it. Either he keeps supporting Israel and readily goes down in history as another bloodthirsty neocon or he withdraws support and.. things get pretty ugly if other Arab nations decide to get involved. It’ll be quite interesting to see how Biden’s trip goes. Unfortunately I see Biden as the only hope Palestinians have right now for getting Israel to stop crossing over into ethnic cleansing territory. Mid-Life Crisis fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 16:53
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fool of sound posted:"Some guy said something, we can't confirm it and aren't going to bother to investigate" is not exactly evidence unless you're predisposed to want to believe it. Ok, so the debunking is "We have named primary sources that were confirmed in the area and in charge of efforts confirming it, but a secondary source cannot confirm or deny within days while an active war is going on so it is 100% blood libel"? The IDF spokesman's statement is confusing but between the breaking nature of the story, the disconnect any IDF spokesman in Tel Aviv would have, the way that "beheading" is a forensic assessment that could be more complex than just "babies without heads" and the fact that the IDF is at least two people that are going to have different religious, moral and practical concerns and not a single person I don't think you can call it a debunking.
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Oct 19, 2023 16:56
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They've already been in ethnic cleansing territory for decades, now they have (not are crossing, HAVE) crossed into full on attempted genocide.
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Oct 19, 2023 16:57
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:What I am pointing out is that physicians running the hospital are crossing a line between Hippocratic oath and Geneva protections when the reality is of hospitals being used as headquarters for militia and cover for missile/rockets/whatever and total clearance of the area of all civilians (internal displacement) has been made patently clear so as to avoid even further harm in the ground war which is mounting up right now. Do you actually have a source for this as a standard enough feature of the current conflict to warrant bombing hospitals?
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Oct 19, 2023 16:59
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:What I am pointing out is that physicians running the hospital are crossing a line between Hippocratic oath and Geneva protections when the reality is of hospitals being used as headquarters for militia and cover for missile/rockets/whatever and total clearance of the area of all civilians (internal displacement) has been made patently clear so as to avoid even further harm in the ground war which is mounting up right now. 1. Do you have any evidence of this actually happening other than IOF reports? I've seen this used as justification before but never seen actual evidence of it occurring. I think you need more than a soldiers post hoc justification to rationalize bombing a hospital 2. This is literally ethnic cleansing
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Oct 19, 2023 16:59
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Mister Fister posted:https://twitter.com/mualphaxi/status/1714853498951540756 This is typical for the NYT, a few years ago they even publish op-eds that are basically like "Feeh, I'm just so BORED of talking about Palestine, what a bunch of losers why don't get they just get a job". I know op-eds aren't actual news, but they're happy to publish and give a platform to the idea that Palestinian civilians dying is kind of bad I guess maybe but hey what can you do, Israel has the right to blow them up. I'm sure they already have a few along those lines now of like actually this is a Very Complicated matter it's not just 100% bad that Israel routinely blows up civilians like they do every time. EDIT: Ah yeah there's the good stuff, this is complicated, therefore it's not worth expressing yourself about it. Fuckers. https://web.archive.org/web/20231018072621/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/17/opinion/social-media-israel-palestine.html
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Oct 19, 2023 17:00
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