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rudatron posted:Go read my posts again, my entire point was that it was natural that they might, but that that's not the long term goal. You keep throwing the word 'necessary' around, without realizing that that encapsulates your own bias - if you believe that some subgroup can only be protected by people inside that subgroup, then it is of course 'necessary'. I'm trying to challenge that assumption, but you don't want to hear it, so you keep spitting out this bullshit of "Wow you just want them to give up!!!". Your challenge was by saying that gay people don't face any major disadvantage any more.
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Mar 18, 2016 01:48
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rudatron posted:Go read my posts again, my entire point was that it was natural that they might, but that that's not the long term goal. You keep throwing the word 'necessary' around, without realizing that that encapsulates your own bias - if you believe that some subgroup can only be protected by people inside that subgroup, then it is of course 'necessary'. I'm trying to challenge that assumption, but you don't want to hear it, so you keep spitting out this bullshit of "Wow you just want them to give up!!!". Are you seriously saying that those marginalized groups should have just stayed the course and waited for the system to catch up with them? The squeaky wheel gets the grease; if black people didn't unite and stand up for themselves in the 60s, I'd be typing this on a keyboard that says "NO COLOREDS" engraved in the plastic. People love the status quo, especially when they can use it to poo poo on somebody else who can't do much about it.
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Mar 18, 2016 13:09
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Instead we just have motion sensors that can't see black people because they aren't the target demographic for nice things. Progress.
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Mar 18, 2016 17:03
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Ice Phisherman posted:Thanks, buddy. I've been thinking about it a lot lately. I'm glad to know I'm being read and not just pissing into the wind. this is also my hope. people will moderate out and hopefully keep the core of their views and some of their passion, without the dick headedness.
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Mar 18, 2016 17:52
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rudatron posted:It's really irresponsible to to assert that what rural towns need to do is transition to a service economy - there are real, hard economic limits to the number of service/knowledge jobs that can be sustained by a country like the US, even if we're assuming it is able to export those services to the world (an impossible challenge, especially since those jobs are the ones the countries abroad will want to keep). You need expand the manufacturing base, that's it, there's no other answer. Likewise there are hard economic limits on manufacturing. If you ignore market forces and build factories primarily to create jobs you wind up with a lot of products nobody wants to buy. It didn't work for the Soviets and it won't work for us either.
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Mar 23, 2016 19:24
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The idea that all physical needs are provided for already is absurd, though. Every roach-infested hovel in North America should be levelled and replaced with a tastefully appointed, energy-neutral three-story house before we can even begin to entertain that idea.
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Mar 24, 2016 09:55
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But guys, it's just so annoying when people whine about being treated respectfully.
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Mar 24, 2016 20:05
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glowing-fish posted:There has been many words written on the internet about right-wing populism, specifically around the rise of Donald Trump, but there is one question that I haven't read a convincing answer to: why now? gamergate (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 5, 2016 23:40
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Trump and GamerGate are related but it's not spontaneous. Since the thread's been a little quiet on the slapfight front I think I'll try rebooting it slightly. glowing-fish posted:The problem with all 7 of those factors is they date back to, respectively: 2010, 2010, c. 1990s, c.1970s, c. 2000s, pretty much forever, 2008 and c.2006. In other words, all the factors that I might think of that could explain the rise of Trump and the fall of the Republican elites were in place in 2012, if not earlier, and yet it wasn't until last summer that they came ripping forwards. I think you missed a key point in here. 9/11. It combined with the right-wing media to create a fearful society that Bush's presidency exploited to do what he wanted, but by 2008 America had bigger problems to worry about and Obama got in, which drove the GOP wild with rage, but they could have handled it if he hadn't won 2012. After their clearly-superior guys got trounced twice despite the rhetoric it's driven the GOP base into a panic that they'll never regain control of America, and so the boiling of rage has finally gone over a line that a Republican getting in has previously held off. 2012 onwards has been the boiling up that's created the situation we're in.
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Apr 9, 2016 15:31
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Tesseraction posted:Trump and GamerGate are related but it's not spontaneous. Trump isn't a new factor himself, I agree. He's not doing anything other than presenting a much more extreme, nakedly bigoted version of what the GOP has been pushing for so long. I'd say that the current terroism panic is no different than the Cold War era Red Scare, but with a more clear racist angle and an even more vague enemy that helped it fester.
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Apr 9, 2016 15:39
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Geostomp posted:Trump isn't a new factor himself, I agree. He's not doing anything other than presenting a much more extreme, nakedly bigoted version of what the GOP has been pushing for so long. I'd say that the current terroism panic is no different than the Cold War era Red Scare, but with a more clear racist angle and an even more vague enemy that helped it fester. Yep, the whipping up of a Muslim Terror coupled with the claims of Obama being a Muslim getting louder and louder as the positive-feedback loop spins up racial hatred more and more openly. Something else to consider is that populism is hard to do for most in the GOP as even the fringe characters like Santorum and Perry needed the backing of the GOPe, so when told to tone down the rhetoric they did. Trump acted similarly and called the bluff of the GOPe when told to tone it down. Trump is exceptional in that he actually can financially afford to alienate the establishment the other candidates might decry but ultimately bend the knee for.
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Apr 9, 2016 16:37
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Theodore Roosevelt was much like Trump. In a time when Socialism/Communism was gaining popularity his presidency made capitalism popular again. He too was a tremendous bit of a diva. Politics is cyclical. We've seen this before. The pendulum swings.
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May 10, 2016 15:45
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maporfic posted:Theodore Roosevelt was much like Trump. In a time when Socialism/Communism was gaining popularity his presidency made capitalism popular again. He too was a tremendous bit of a diva. Teddy was in no way Trump unless you want to count every politician who's ever had popular support as similar. For one thing TR had a clear set of policy goals, many of which involved increasing regulation on corporations, and reigning in the corruption that had become so prevalent in the Gilded Age. His rise also wasn't fueled primarily by racism, religious bigotry, xenophobia.
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May 10, 2016 23:57
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galagazombie posted:Teddy was in no way Trump unless you want to count every politician who's ever had popular support as similar. For one thing TR had a clear set of policy goals, many of which involved increasing regulation on corporations, and reigning in the corruption that had become so prevalent in the Gilded Age. His rise also wasn't fueled primarily by racism, religious bigotry, xenophobia. Well there was a bit of xenophobia, to be quite honest. But then his was much less then that of WW.
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May 10, 2016 23:58
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The use of racism in campaigning was not invented by Trump, hell it's been a political tool since politics as we know it really took off. His xenophobic populism is not new, either. The power of his campaign has been the devil-may-care attitude that's harder to finance in America's ridiculously finance-oriented political scene.
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May 11, 2016 00:02
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Crowsbeak posted:Well there was a bit of xenophobia, to be quite honest. But then his was much less then that of WW. Everyone one back then was somewhat racist/xenophobic. I meant to say it wasn't a central part of his campaign strategy or appeal to voters.
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May 11, 2016 00:34
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Trump is more of a "know nothing" (more Levin than Fillmore) than a TR. If you want a presidential candidate, maybe if you squint you could see a WJB but he's more of a Wallace on steroids.
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May 11, 2016 02:15
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galagazombie posted:Everyone one back then was somewhat racist/xenophobic. I meant to say it wasn't a central part of his campaign strategy or appeal to voters. You might be correct if you're specifying within the US only. For his foreign adventures, TR would be very much at home with the neocons today.
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May 14, 2016 15:21
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Tesseraction posted:Trump and GamerGate are related but it's not spontaneous. I'll elaborate (and hopefully won't get probated for it this time). What we are seeing is a split between liberalism and progressivism, two ideologies that are, at their core, quite different, but have become synonymous since the progressive era of the 1890s early 1900s. That's starting to change, however. I wrote more about this trend on my blog last year. http://drakus79.tumblr.com/post/127448197384/progressivism-vs-liberalism Here's the relevant snippet quote:But what happened to the classical liberals? These Thomas Jefferson liberals who still believed in limited government and didn’t necessarily support all of the new government programs, however good intentioned they were. It’s hard to say. The ideology definitely didn’t go away. As mentioned before, a lot of them became libertarians or objectivists, we have Ayn Rand to thank for that. But I think most of them, at least at first, stuck with the Democrats and evolved from classical liberals into the liberals of today. But the ones that stuck to their classical liberal principles (and keep mind it’s been over a hundred years so this is a change over the course of generations) probably switched parties eventually. The split between the classical liberals and the progressives has pretty much already happened. So it had been building for awhile, but Gamergate was the turning point, the pushback that started the avalanche, which brought the conversation critiquing PC culture, college safe spaces, etc to the main-stream. Soon after gamergate, you started to see people even in the mainstream, who normally considered themselves liberal, standing up to PC culture and actually taking notice and supporting the ideas of the alt right, whereas before they were seen as a fringe group. The working class, which had always been seen as being on the side of the left, has been slowly realigning with the alt right ever since. Gianthogweed fucked around with this message at 16:37 on May 14, 2016 |
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May 14, 2016 16:20
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Gianthogweed posted:So it had been building for awhile, but Gamergate was the turning point I'm sorry, but no. What on Earth? Gamergate was an expression of trends, it wasn't the catalyst or cause. I just reject your observation that there was some turning point after gamergate. Maybe online, with an understanding that these people are a loud internet minority, but that's a pretty key difference, especially if you're talking about Trump.
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May 14, 2016 17:14
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This idea that gamergate is going to turn all millennialist conservative is loving hilarious. Also a loving tumbler blog?
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May 14, 2016 17:19
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I'd say gamergate definitely represented a point where a bunch of shitheads were suddenly able to easily recognize each other and galvanize which can't be hand-waved away. And there WAS a huge surge in anti-sjw rhetoric after said galvanization. Funny part being the entire catalyst for the movement turned out to be a lie but when has that ever stopped them.
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May 14, 2016 17:29
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Like, you don't directly compare Gamergate and Black Lives Matter, but you sort of invite the comparison by mentioning "twitter wars" between the two and talking about how identity politics may have alienated classical liberals, and that seems like a pretty illustrative comparison. Black Lives Matter has had huge penetration in mainstream political culture. Clinton and Sanders both had to adopt that movement's language to some degree. GOP candidates were forced to either take positions opposing, or even attempt to co-opt them in the case of Rand Paul. The GOP candidates don't even know what a "Gamergate" is. When they try to and rile up the base of the party, they talk about the old institutions: the church, the military, the police. Even within "gamer" culture, or amongst millenials, Gamergate is fringe. In the mainstream, it's barely a blip - it's an oddity that bubbles to the surface when a university receives bombing threats. Periodiko fucked around with this message at 17:37 on May 14, 2016 |
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May 14, 2016 17:35
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If GG is indicative of anything, it's that white people will continue to choose spite over not being focused on for five minutes. Like literally, the whole "politicians cater to non-whites and white people get mad" thing is the reason why the New Deal Coalition fell apart, and that was over 40 years ago.
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May 14, 2016 17:36
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Saying you support gamergate is politically toxic, so no politician is going to touch the subject. I think the only presidential candidate that actually had, funnily enough, was Carly Fiorina back on an interview with Crowder. The Gamergate controversy in itself is unimportant and pretty much irrelevant at this point. But I do think it was a turning point because it was when people started to take notice of the alt-right and the push back against identity politics really started within main-stream even if they didn't support gamergate directly. It's like the pebble that started the avalanche, even if people don't recognize the importance of the pebble or even remember or realize it ever fell.
Gianthogweed fucked around with this message at 18:31 on May 14, 2016 |
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May 14, 2016 18:29
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I don't think gamergate started anything, it just represented the moment where a part of nerd culture realized it could borrow the language of conservatism to poo poo on other people within their own domain for having empathy / wanting things to change. It's a microcosm of what was/is happening in culture more broadly, just focused on a topic that matters much less.
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May 14, 2016 18:35
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Gianthogweed posted:Saying you support gamergate is politically toxic, so no politician is going to touch the subject. I think the only presidential candidate that actually had, funnily enough, was Carly Fiorina back on an interview with Crowder. The Gamergate controversy in itself is unimportant and pretty much irrelevant at this point. But I do think it was a turning point because it was when people started to take notice of the alt-right and the push back against identity politics really started within main-stream even if they didn't support gamergate directly. It's like the pebble that started the avalanche, even if people don't recognize the importance of the pebble or even remember or realize it ever fell. Yes all because of gamergate we are going to have fascism.
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May 14, 2016 18:36
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Crowsbeak posted:Yes all because of gamergate we are going to have fascism. If it weren't gg it would have been something else. The point is that all the ingredients were already there gg just kicked it off.
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May 14, 2016 18:44
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Crowsbeak posted:Yes all because of gamergate we are going to have fascism. Pretty much.
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May 14, 2016 18:44
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Gianthogweed posted:Pretty much. Oh lol. Unless you can show me changing voting patterns or polls amongst millenials this is all coming from lovely tumblrina.
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May 14, 2016 18:49
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Crowsbeak posted:Oh lol. Unless you can show me changing voting patterns or polls amongst millenials this is all coming from lovely tumblrina. I actually predicted Clinton will win on my blog, but I was probably wrong and the polling data is starting to show that.
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May 14, 2016 18:55
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Gianthogweed posted:I actually predicted Clinton will win on my blog, but I was probably wrong and the polling data is starting to show that. If young white men don't like Hillary, they just won't vote. Fortunately, Hillary does not need the white male vote to win.
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May 14, 2016 19:03
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Gianthogweed posted:I actually predicted Clinton will win on my blog, but I was probably wrong and the polling data is starting to show that. So did I, and over half the posters on Dnd.
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May 14, 2016 19:13
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Gianthogweed posted:Saying you support gamergate is politically toxic, so no politician is going to touch the subject. I think the only presidential candidate that actually had, funnily enough, was Carly Fiorina back on an interview with Crowder. The Gamergate controversy in itself is unimportant and pretty much irrelevant at this point. But I do think it was a turning point because it was when people started to take notice of the alt-right and the push back against identity politics really started within main-stream even if they didn't support gamergate directly. It's like the pebble that started the avalanche, even if people don't recognize the importance of the pebble or even remember or realize it ever fell. I don't know if you realize this, but there are other people in the United States besides white males 18-35 that use social media.
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May 14, 2016 20:38
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Periodiko posted:I'm sorry, but no. What on Earth? Gamergate was an expression of trends, it wasn't the catalyst or cause. I just reject your observation that there was some turning point after gamergate. Maybe online, with an understanding that these people are a loud internet minority, but that's a pretty key difference, especially if you're talking about Trump. Also, hasn't it really only been working class whites that have started drinking the alt-right Flavor-aide? Trump is incredibly unfavorable with blacks and latinos, on the order of 9/10ths unfavorable. This is one of their last chances to grasp the reins of power and ruin the country again, and there's a lot of motion and chaos in the end of their relevance as a demographic group. I'd have preferred a less awful candidate on the GOP slate for their last gasp, but I don't see how you Trump is going to do better than Romney did with whites. The loser demo is very vocal on the internet, but it doesn't work in elections as well-- see Sanders getting nutstomped despite piles of chuds pushing him online.
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May 14, 2016 20:44
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Crowsbeak posted:So did I, and over half the posters on Dnd. I was one of the people taunting Joementum back in November as he was all 'wait for super tuesday. wait for super tuesday' and now I'm the one repeating 'wait for the conventions. wait for the conventions.' I still stand by that.
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May 14, 2016 20:48
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rkajdi posted:Also, hasn't it really only been working class whites that have started drinking the alt-right Flavor-aide? Trump is incredibly unfavorable with blacks and latinos, on the order of 9/10ths unfavorable. This is one of their last chances to grasp the reins of power and ruin the country again, and there's a lot of motion and chaos in the end of their relevance as a demographic group. I'd have preferred a less awful candidate on the GOP slate for their last gasp, but I don't see how you Trump is going to do better than Romney did with whites. The loser demo is very vocal on the internet, but it doesn't work in elections as well-- see Sanders getting nutstomped despite piles of chuds pushing him online. Yeah I'm usually not one to get hyperbolic about presidential elections but with the supreme court on the line and a republican house if Trump wins this we're basically doomed to doubling down on all the mistakes we've made since Reagan.
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May 14, 2016 20:50
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Necc0 posted:Yeah I'm usually not one to get hyperbolic about presidential elections but with the supreme court on the line and a republican house if Trump wins this we're basically doomed to doubling down on all the mistakes we've made since Reagan. Yeah. The problem is these guys (the Trumpenprole losers) have a way too inflated self-worth, and society didn't do a good job treating them the same as the rest of the working class. Now they're getting angry their white/straight/Jesus privilege is getting pulled away and they have no identity of any value left.
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May 14, 2016 20:54
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Necc0 posted:I was one of the people taunting Joementum back in November as he was all 'wait for super tuesday. wait for super tuesday' and now I'm the one repeating 'wait for the conventions. wait for the conventions.' Hey I still support Bernie but I realize it was always a Sisyphaian task.
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May 14, 2016 20:57
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Crowsbeak posted:Hey I still support Bernie but I realize it was always a Sisyphaian task. I wish more of the Bernie Bros had figured that out earlier on so decent people didn't have to hear anything from them. Give up if you can't win, don't whinge and hurt the winner-- assuming most them (the bros, not most Sanders supporters) actually cared about anyone other than their pathetic asses.
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May 14, 2016 21:01
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