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Mokotow posted:
I remember being at a summering inn in Pskov. They served us anomalous cutlets. We were travelling with a couple people didn't eat pork, so of course I asked what type of meat it was. Answer: Local.
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Jan 28, 2022 18:53
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https://twitter.com/markmackinnon/status/1487083500142575628?s=20&t=4vb8EiDDehKiNhObjXLX8A Honestly gotta agree with Zelensky here. Enough of this charade.
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Jan 28, 2022 18:55
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i mean, i think the russian argument in this specific crisis is absurd and broadly without merit but you do need to understand it to find a way out of the conflict cycle
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Jan 28, 2022 18:55
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D-Pad posted:Pointing out how Russia views the situation is not the same thing as endorsing or agreeing with that viewpoint. We should be able to have discussions about how another actor views a situation decoupled from whether that view is good or bad, but alas some people just aren't capable of that. That's not how Russia actually views the situation, though. Putin isn't dumb enough to be threatened by token tripwire forces. Their actual view is that Ukrainians are dumb peasants who got tricked by willy Westerners to do their biding, and that it's Russia's right to rule them and the rest of Eastern Europe (Finland being a marginal case being of racially superior stock). So what it's actually doing is spreading a manifesto published by a mass murderer and saying we ought to give a listen. The actual main threat to safety of Russian people is the Moscow government. The #2 threat is the government in Grozny. Those two, after all, are responsible for murdering many of Russian citizens.
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Jan 28, 2022 18:56
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FishBulbia posted:https://twitter.com/markmackinnon/status/1487083500142575628?s=20&t=4vb8EiDDehKiNhObjXLX8A I mean, I agree but the US already stated as much in 2008.
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Jan 28, 2022 18:57
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That’s a rather peculiar change of pace from him, however. I wonder if there’s something going on in the background which promoted him to to public with this.
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Jan 28, 2022 18:57
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Willo567 posted:Why is there such a noticeable disconnect between the threat level that Ukraine sees vs most of NATO? There is certainly a disconnect between the Western war feverish press and Zelensky https://twitter.com/MattMcBradley/status/1487090413282471941?s=20&t=DxNuiuwCm_EL_lVTOXADjg https://twitter.com/MattMcBradley/status/1487091070697713668
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Jan 28, 2022 18:57
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cinci zoo sniper posted:I’m sure you have legitimate reasons to be upset that there’s a lack of outpouring enthusiasm for a run of the mill Russia apologism, different from previous hundreds of similar takes in the iterations of this thread only by somehow necessitating 1800 words this time to, arguably, poorly convey the message. That said, you could enjoy more useful conversations if you can find in yourself the strength to post not just at largely imaginary posting enemies, but also at real people actually participating in this thread. What an ironic post. It’s a work of art. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 28, 2022 18:59
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FishBulbia posted:There is certainly a disconnect between the Western war feverish press and Zelensky A journalist that's not very smart and baffled by something with an obvious answer? Why am I not surprised. https://twitter.com/evangershkovich/status/1487106491974922240 The reality is that if the invasion is taken as given, it will do tremendous economic damage to Ukraine even if nothing happens. That would also be potentially the best course of action for Putin --- he won't be held responsible in any way if that's the case.
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Jan 28, 2022 19:01
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QuoProQuid posted:i mean, i think the russian argument in this specific crisis is absurd and broadly without merit but you do need to understand it to find a way out of the conflict cycle You’re not getting out of conflict by understanding the perspective of someone explicitly interested in having a conflict. Even less so if you replace understanding with rote regurgitation of talking points they’ve engineered to move popular sentiment.
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Jan 28, 2022 19:02
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D-Pad posted:Pointing out how Russia views the situation is not the same thing as endorsing or agreeing with that viewpoint. This I agree with, and I never disagree with the poster(s) saying something along the lines of "the reality is that Russia can invade Ukraine and the West is unlikely to go into a shooting war over it, so what happens is ultimately up to them". Where I draw the line is "Russia was provoked by the dastardly West, so invading Ukraine is just defending itself". No, Russia invading another country is not justified, period. They might (and I think they will) get away with it, but that is something completely different. D-Pad posted:We should be able to have discussions about how another actor views a situation decoupled from whether that view is good or bad, but alas some people just aren't capable of that. And why exactly do you/they think that Russia is actually viewing the situation as this long set of historic slights that makes them justified in annexing parts of Ukraine? Why is it anything but a public face that covers the real opinion of "we can get away with it, so we are taking it, lol"? This is, after all, the country that weaponized mass internet trolling and FUD.
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Jan 28, 2022 19:04
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OddObserver posted:(Finland being a marginal case being of racially superior stock). Despite being a pretty weird thing to say I doubt anyone on earth believes in the superiority of Finn genes. Do you have a source from anyone in the Russian government claiming to racial superiority of Finns over Slavs?
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Jan 28, 2022 19:04
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OddObserver posted:A journalist that's not very smart and baffled by something with an obvious answer? Why am I not surprised. So best do the par minimum to prepare? Zelensky himself said in that speech that the biggest threat is domestic destabilization, is he lying?
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Jan 28, 2022 19:04
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Terminal autist posted:Despite being a pretty weird thing to say I doubt anyone on earth believes in the superiority of Finn genes. Do you have a source from anyone in the Russian government claiming to racial superiority of Finns over Slavs? Are you for real now?
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Jan 28, 2022 19:06
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cinci zoo sniper posted:You’re not getting out of conflict by understanding the perspective of someone explicitly interested in having a conflict. Even less so if you replace understanding with rote regurgitation of talking points they’ve engineered to move popular sentiment. with all due respect, im not sure i said we should we swallowing Russia’s talking points uncritically. im saying that it’s important to understand their objectives and self-conception if you want to deal with the crisis in a meaningful way. im totally agreed that Russia’s current objective appears to be to instigate a conflict in some form. that understanding is why the EU/US are steadily raising the consequences of a potential attack or invasion in hopes that it forces Russia to a re-evaluate that objective and return to the table QuoProQuid fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Jan 28, 2022 |
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Jan 28, 2022 19:09
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Terminally Bored posted:Honest question: why are so many people defending/excusing Russia itt American? Did Trump broke so many brains there? There are a ton of self-proclaimed communists and marxists on this site who believe that the Soviet Union breaking up was a great tragedy.
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Jan 28, 2022 19:13
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Are you for real now? Did you even read the post I quoted? The OP pretty clearly lays out his interpretation of Russian goals and that includes the weird Finnish thing.
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Jan 28, 2022 19:14
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D-Pad posted:Pointing out how Russia views the situation is not the same thing as endorsing or agreeing with that viewpoint. We should be able to have discussions about how another actor views a situation decoupled from whether that view is good or bad, but alas some people just aren't capable of that. We do not have to decouple a statement from its context and presume the good faith of the source's claimed motivations. I cannot imagine a worse example to pick here than Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris talking about race. fake edit: what the gently caress is this site you've linked. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Jan 28, 2022 |
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Jan 28, 2022 19:15
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Terminal autist posted:Despite being a pretty weird thing to say I doubt anyone on earth believes in the superiority of Finn genes. Do you have a source from anyone in the Russian government claiming to racial superiority of Finns over Slavs? Basically, as far as I can see a lot of Russian foreign policy is based on two feelings: 1) Feeling superior to East Europeans / Central Asians (along with the usual sort of racism towards Africans). 2) Feeling inadequate towards Western Europe and more complicated form of that towards America. So you get a policy that's basically focused towards "West ought to recognize our right to do what we want with Ukraine", one that completely ignores the agency of Ukrainians but is simultaneously focused on making a big deal with Washington which shows how they are respected and stuff. And also all those pointless summits. I am pretty sure Finland gets put more towards bucket 2; the control by Russian Empire doesn't put it in the same mental category for the society as the Warsaw pact nations and countries forced into USSR. P.S. Thanks for not killing my grandpa during the Winter War, Finns.
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Jan 28, 2022 19:19
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BoldFace posted:There are a ton of self-proclaimed communists and marxists on this site who believe that the Soviet Union breaking up was a great tragedy. A lot of people are upset that after 2 decades of Afghan occupation, and the world biggest military, simple public health tasks that much less capable countries have pulled off are deemed impossible, but there is always money for war. A lot of people also believe that a decisive military defeat is require to facilitate revolution in the US.
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Jan 28, 2022 19:22
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I do not think Russia is anti-imperialist, my opposition to US involvement starts with being a US citizen who does not understand why our failing state has any business over there short of global capitalist hegemony, and that struggle puts me in opposition the US getting involved. I think a lot of other leftists feel this way—sure there are loudmouths who actively Stan whoever, but that’s no dumber than American liberals stanning Biden. Neither he nor Putin would bother with them in the least. I think those loudmouth actual Putin-supporting leftists are vastly outnumbered by people already fatigued from 20 years of lost wars.
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Jan 28, 2022 19:23
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selec posted:I do not think Russia is anti-imperialist, my opposition to US involvement starts with being a US citizen who does not understand why our failing state has any business over there short of global capitalist hegemony, and that struggle puts me in opposition the US getting involved. Also, do you support the notion that no US company should operate in Russia? If not, you're not actually for non-involvement.
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Jan 28, 2022 19:26
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QuoProQuid posted:with all due respect, im not sure i said we should we swallowing Russia’s talking points uncritically. im saying that it’s important to understand their objectives and self-conception if you want to deal with the crisis in a meaningful way. For instance, I hold their objective is to secure a land bridge to Crimea for a number of strategic reasons, and that it's in service of this objective that they're leveraging Western media to create panic regarding major population centers in Ukraine to force Ukrainian Mil to concentrate defenses there as part of their maskirovka approach to conflicts (whereas in reality they wish to achieve their goals without forcing an urban fight larger than Mariupol, as Russians are incapable of seizing a large population center without turning it into a charnel house). They might not be going for a total takeover, but they'll almost surely attack, and the ongoing negotiations are performative. On the other hand, we have completely imaginary posters ITT convinced Putin's ashktually just doing this to cause FUD and he'll take his ball and go home, because his goal is just to be evil but he's also a coward and wants an excuse to not have to do anything, and believing there'll be an attack at all is buying into Russian propaganda.
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Jan 28, 2022 19:27
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OddObserver posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances The US should get involved because it signed a document 30 years ago saying it would not invade Ukraine?
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Jan 28, 2022 19:28
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OddObserver posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances I don’t care about that, didn’t vote for it, and we break our treaties and promises whenever we want to. Pointing at that as some kind of guarantee makes you sound pretty naive! Your second point doesn’t make sense—I can’t control what private companies do, whereas ostensibly the US government is beholden to voters.
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Jan 28, 2022 19:28
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selec posted:I don’t care about that, didn’t vote for it, and we break our treaties and promises whenever we want to. Pointing at that as some kind of guarantee makes you sound pretty naive! It's not even a treaty like that. Anyone who tells you that is pushing disinfo. It's a promise that the signatories will not invade Ukraine, and will got to the UNSC if Ukraine gets attacked with a nuclear weapon. Nothing about it even suggests that the US agrees to defend Ukraine. US and NATO has the same level of defense obligations with Ukraine as with Belarus and Kazakhstan.
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Jan 28, 2022 19:33
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FishBulbia posted:It's not even a treaty like that. Anyone who tells you that is pushing disinfo. It's a promise that the signatories will not invade Ukraine, and will got to the UNSC if Ukraine gets attacked with a nuclear weapon. Nothing about it even suggests that the US agrees to defend Ukraine. US and NATO has the same level of defense obligations with Ukraine as with Belarus and Kazakhstan. Guess which one broke that promise and is actively furthering breaking that promise.
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Jan 28, 2022 19:35
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OddObserver posted:Basically, as far as I can see a lot of Russian foreign policy is based on two feelings: That makes sense and I figured it was just slight hyperbole but I appreciate the more nuanced take. selec posted:I do not think Russia is anti-imperialist, my opposition to US involvement starts with being a US citizen who does not understand why our failing state has any business over there short of global capitalist hegemony, and that struggle puts me in opposition the US getting involved. Agree with this 100% I don't personally know anyone who actually pro Putin. I think theres a group of people who spent the last decade getting their brains broke by Syria and started seeing tankies everywhere. I think everyone sort of adopts these maximalist positions on whatever side and it always elevates these conflicts into these great generational and ideological wars and its really not that at all. Russia is a rump state and I think most people ITT agree its swirling the drain and all the comparisons to nazi germany and appeasement just dont parse.
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Jan 28, 2022 19:36
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CommieGIR posted:Guess which one broke that promise and is actively furthering breaking that promise. Please show me the invisible ink enforcement clause the US is in Ukraine due to its strategic interests, not because it promised to talk at the security council if almaty got nuked
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Jan 28, 2022 19:41
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selec posted:
US government however does decide what private companies do, like whether they continue paying taxes to Russia to help support their wars of invasion, our outright sell tools of oppression, and also whether Russian oligarchs get to use the money they stole of Russian people to buy villas in Miami. Fundamentally, in modern world non-involvement for a country as big as US is not a thing. A more obvious example: in 2014, the previous round of Russian invasion, France had to grudgingly agree to... not sell Russia weapons. I bet plenty of their politicians would have loved to claim the war has nothing to do with them while counting the money they got for selling the tools of aggression.
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Jan 28, 2022 19:43
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OddObserver posted:Also, do you support the notion that no US company should operate in Russia? If not, you're not actually for non-involvement. This post has strong 'yet you participate in society, curious!' energy. The US government does force many businesses not to operate in Russia due to sanctions policy, but the default assumption is that businesses are free to operate wherever they want, and American sanctions are often an instrument of imperialism.
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Jan 28, 2022 19:43
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You can't acknowledge the Russia threat! YOU WILL REGRET THIS also zelensky is smart for demanding an outright "Ukraines not getting into NATO" As that alone is helpful if Ukraine want stop continue to be a sovereign nation since Russian air waves will be flooded with it
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Jan 28, 2022 19:44
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FishBulbia posted:https://twitter.com/markmackinnon/status/1487083500142575628?s=20&t=4vb8EiDDehKiNhObjXLX8A
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Jan 28, 2022 19:49
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I'm glad to see Zelensky has moved toward my preferred solution to this crisis. I assume it's a mix of resignation and hoping that pointing out the West's hypocrisy will spur them to actually invite Ukraine, but it dovetails with my this is the worst of both worlds point.
Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Jan 28, 2022 |
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Jan 28, 2022 19:49
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Sinteres posted:I'm glad to see Zelensky has moved toward my preferred solution to this crisis. I assume it's a mix of resignation and hoping that pointing out the West's hypocrisy will spur them to actually invite Ukraine, but it dovetails with my this is the worst of both worlds point. I don't think it will actually solve the crisis, but it will give Putin a nice offramp while literally not changing the security situation for the West in the slightest. Not actually surrendering anything.
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Jan 28, 2022 19:59
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Mokotow posted:
Pork, served on a plate with fries. There's a bottle of ketchup on the table for sauce. There's probably a meek attempt at a salad with some slices of cucumber and tomato on the plate, as well. 
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Jan 28, 2022 20:07
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QuoProQuid posted:with all due respect, im not sure i said we should we swallowing Russia’s talking points uncritically. im saying that it’s important to understand their objectives and self-conception if you want to deal with the crisis in a meaningful way. You didn't indeed. What I was pointing at is that the current escalation of conflict between Russia and Ukraine was explicitly set up by Russia with the goal of having a confrontation - understanding that would not prevent Ukraine from facing the ongoing situation, unless you count total surrender as a successful self-defence strategy. As for arguing in favour of the official propaganda of the aggressor, sometimes full verbatim - that's just something that keeps happening in the thread from time to time, usually in the framework of "American bad and victim is supported by America, so what can I come up with for the offender's motivations"? Terminal autist posted:Did you even read the post I quoted? The OP pretty clearly lays out his interpretation of Russian goals and that includes the weird Finnish thing. They're being tongue-in-cheek. cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Jan 28, 2022 |
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Jan 28, 2022 20:11
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Mokotow posted:
i wonder if the results of this ad-hoc survey would go to some ee_goons_foods_opinions.xls in order to extract the perfect SA-approved schnitzel formula
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Jan 28, 2022 20:13
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I think if anything we’re far far away from a consensus
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Jan 28, 2022 20:16
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I ordered a tenderloin for lunch so thanks thread
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Jan 28, 2022 20:19
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