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Elysiume posted:This is frustrating in so many editions. You can take a fun, flavorful feat that bolsters your character's personality, or a boring feat every other paladin/cleric/fighter has because you need it to be good at killing things. Sure, people always have the option to throw charop away and just build a cool, unique, evocative character, but then they need to deal with being outclassed by the rest of the party. You could do crazy things like bake in both to a single feat and make feats in any way interesting, but no. More feats. More!
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Apr 3, 2018 22:19
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On one hand, the interesting racial feats being lame could be fine if they're silo'd off and all the racial feats are on a similarly lame level. (I mean, the crafting feat would be competing with the fire feat, but +1 to fire damage, be still my heart.) On the other hand, feats really should be more interesting than this by now.
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Apr 3, 2018 22:28
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By all accounts, your class should give you the things you need to play that class so that feats could be fun, flavourful bonuses to characterise yourself with. But then I guess they wouldn't be "feats" and instead have to be something else. Like, I dunno, "traits" or something. That'd be nice. Instead, we've gone in the complete opposite direction and everything is feats is now so ridiculously prevalent that basic class features and core gameplay mechanics are gated behind the loving things.
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Apr 3, 2018 22:38
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Roadie posted:"Quickly make crappy stuff that will break if overused" should just be a general use of the Craft skill, so that characters have at least some reason to actually take it in games without downtime. This is the most fun type of crafting character in tabletop anyway imo. I've played/run a few Fate/DW games that have had characters based on jury-rigging up limited use weapons/tech mid-adventure, and they were some of the most fun characters I've seen.
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Apr 3, 2018 22:57
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The goblin poo poo is weird as hell because while goblins absolutely are super popular and sorta the face of Paizo, there's also pretty much never been any clamor for them to be a viable normal PC character option. If anything I could see most of the fanbase rejecting this, because the entire reason goblins are popular is because they're careless little villainous shits. They're there to be HILARIOUS (if you like early-mid 2000's humor) and then you chuckle, shake your head, and then wipe them all out. Like, they're obsessed with hating and eating horses and dogs, because the whole point of goblins is that they're cheerfully hateable, so why not go for the two animals your fanbase is most likely to love? Pathfinder fans are obsessed with their combination of metagame and lore (that's basically the point of 3.x), and this is gonna fly in the face of all of it. Of all the stuff they've shown so far, this one is honestly probably the dumbest.
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Apr 3, 2018 22:59
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Dragonatrix posted:By all accounts, your class should give you the things you need to play that class so that feats could be fun, flavourful bonuses to characterise yourself with. But then I guess they wouldn't be "feats" and instead have to be something else. Like, I dunno, "traits" or something. That'd be nice. I think that's what they're trying to do with this edition. Feats seem to be their new catch-all term for racial, class, and skill-based features that can be interchanged among one another. You already have this in Pathfinder, between alternate racial features, alternate subclass features, and near every class having a "pick from a list of shinies" class feature. This is just unifying the language. Or letting you choose between racial and class progression at any given level, and thereby muddling it all even more.
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Apr 3, 2018 23:09
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ProfessorCirno posted:then you chuckle, shake your head, and then wipe them all out. Sentences like this just remind me that like I'm at the point where what I want out of tabletop is just way different than what most games I actually see play locally do.
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Apr 3, 2018 23:11
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If there's not an opera scene I'm not even interested
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Apr 3, 2018 23:17
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The problem with any argument from lore to disallow goblins as PCs is that the Golarion lore is terrible, just absolute garbage.
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Apr 3, 2018 23:18
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This arguably isn't saying much, but I think it's the best generic core setting that's been made for (what is essentially) D&D. The world doesn't make much sense, but even more than Forgotten Realms it has something for everyone, without all the 'you can't do that because Elminster stops you' bullshit.
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Apr 3, 2018 23:42
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Zerilan posted:Sentences like this just remind me that like I'm at the point where what I want out of tabletop is just way different than what most games I actually see play locally do. I mean, again, that's the whole point of goblins. They're vaguely comedic endless mooks. What you're looking for in a game is probably something you're never gonna get from anything D&D-esque, period. Terrible Opinions posted:The problem with any argument from lore to disallow goblins as PCs is that the Golarion lore is terrible, just absolute garbage. Yes, but it's also what Pathfinder - and most of it's fans - are built on. Like, I'm not saying that I'm against goblin PCs. I'm saying most of their fanbase probably will be.
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Apr 3, 2018 23:42
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If they do want to make it work with the lore, having it be a nature vs nurture thing instead of just some goblins randomly being heroic seems like it would be a lot better. The existing material makes clear that goblins raise their children like animals, and that it ensures that they'll grow up to be monsters. I'm fine with the idea that they're naturally predisposed to evil too, since their origin involves an evil deity, but having isolated communities of goblins that actually got their poo poo together a bit and halfway civilized makes more sense to me than a party of five Drizzts doing a PFS scenario. Edit: Just wanted to add that while I think a minor retcon/addition to the setting of an atypical group of goblins already existing would be a good idea in this specific instance, I do appreciate that they aren't planning some dramatic "nothing will ever be the same again!" shake up of the setting like Forgotten Realms always got stuck with. Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Apr 4, 2018 |
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Apr 3, 2018 23:46
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Anyone mess around with the Masked Persona feats from Inner Sea Intrigue at all? I'm starting a super politics/intrigue heavy game and I've been playing around with a bunch of character ideas, including a Phantom Thief, and I think Masked Persona might be a good cover to keep up with high society. EDIT: just looked at my post history in this thread and noticed that you guys giving me advice on my Skald and some general advice on PF vs 3.5 really helped me get started. 2 years later I own a bunch of hardcover books, i'm teaching Pathfinder to friends, and my Skald completed his campaign surviving from lvl 1-10 as the only original party member who did not die or leave. 
Pyronic fucked around with this message at 06:47 on Apr 4, 2018 |
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Apr 4, 2018 06:29
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Elysiume posted:This is frustrating in so many editions. You can take a fun, flavorful feat that bolsters your character's personality, or a boring feat every other paladin/cleric/fighter has because you need it to be good at killing things. Sure, people always have the option to throw charop away and just build a cool, unique, evocative character, but then they need to deal with being outclassed by the rest of the party. Welcome to why Techslinger nearly killed my desire to play Iron Gods. I could either take the cool ratfolk feats so I could burrow and shoot from cover, or I could take the feats to allow me to use my guns like a normal person uses a loving bow and arrow.  Thanks to a generous GM, I'm going to be able to do both. Not everyone is that lucky.
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Apr 4, 2018 09:22
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dont even fink about it posted:You could do crazy things like bake in both to a single feat and make feats in any way interesting, but no. More feats. More! Elysiume fucked around with this message at 09:34 on Apr 4, 2018 |
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Apr 4, 2018 09:29
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Elysiume posted:I'd almost prefer having separate power and flavor feat tracks. Yeah the problem is more that it's Just Feats Period. You need to have level-gated feats, and parallel-tracked feat categories, whether that means calling some of them "Talents" and the others "Feats", or calling some of them "Skill Feats", "Combat Feats", and "Racial Feats".
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Apr 4, 2018 09:34
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gradenko_2000 posted:Yeah the problem is more that it's Just Feats Period. You need to have level-gated feats, and parallel-tracked feat categories, whether that means calling some of them "Talents" and the others "Feats", or calling some of them "Skill Feats", "Combat Feats", and "Racial Feats". This brings up a hilarious(ly depressing) realization. The "Ancestry customizing choices!" aren't going to be anything new at all. They're literally just going to be the pre-existing "alternate choices" for your racial abilities with a different colored ribbon and a new name. I had underestimated their laziness, somehow.
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Apr 4, 2018 13:46
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ProfessorCirno posted:This brings up a hilarious(ly depressing) realization. The "Ancestry customizing choices!" aren't going to be anything new at all. They're literally just going to be the pre-existing "alternate choices" for your racial abilities with a different colored ribbon and a new name. Hey, come on. You're selling them short. It'l be about half of the alternate racial features. The other half will be rereleased in new supplements. Obviously.
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Apr 4, 2018 15:52
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ProfessorCirno posted:This brings up a hilarious(ly depressing) realization. The "Ancestry customizing choices!" aren't going to be anything new at all. They're literally just going to be the pre-existing "alternate choices" for your racial abilities with a different colored ribbon and a new name. To be fair, "we moved racial abilities into feats (so you don't get all of them in one go, so we don't need to hit you with a Level Adjustment)" was a thing that 4e did.
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Apr 4, 2018 16:09
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ProfessorCirno posted:This brings up a hilarious(ly depressing) realization. The "Ancestry customizing choices!" aren't going to be anything new at all. They're literally just going to be the pre-existing "alternate choices" for your racial abilities with a different colored ribbon and a new name. They may be offering level gated high power versions, as well. Mark Seifter mentioned a level 14 dwarf who shook off some really nasty poison in a way most characters couldn’t because of ancestry feat choices.
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Apr 4, 2018 18:15
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Yeah, it wouldn't be so bad if these were all different pools. Like, if you just got a certain number of free feats that had to be used on racial stuff, separate from your pool of feats that actually make you effective in the game. But I don't think they'll ever go that way.
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Apr 6, 2018 02:05
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JackMann posted:Yeah, it wouldn't be so bad if these were all different pools. Like, if you just got a certain number of free feats that had to be used on racial stuff, separate from your pool of feats that actually make you effective in the game. But I don't think they'll ever go that way. They are in fact giving separate ancestry, general, skill, and class feat pools.
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Apr 6, 2018 03:27
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Syzygy Stardust posted:They are in fact giving separate ancestry, general, skill, and class feat pools. Elysiume fucked around with this message at 04:04 on Apr 6, 2018 |
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Apr 6, 2018 03:34
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Elysiume posted:Are they access separately, or do you just get a feat that you can use on any pool? Yeah, this is the ticker. If you actually spend different resources, then it doesn't matter if racial feats are weaker than general feats. But if "I can make a crappy shiv" is competing with "I don't take a -4 penalty for firing into melee" it's going to be a non-starter.
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Apr 6, 2018 03:52
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Elysiume posted:Are they accessed separately, or do you just get a feat that you can use on any pool? General feats can also be spent on skill feats. I think that’s the only crossover.
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Apr 6, 2018 12:26
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Even so far within the racial pool, you have "craft skill but worse" competing with straight up free bonus damage from fire sources.
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Apr 6, 2018 12:43
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moths posted:Even so far within the racial pool, you have "craft skill but worse" competing with straight up free bonus damage from fire sources. Its a shame, too, because narratively it could be a really cool feat. You get to, no strings attached, say "I have a weapon" after most any prison break or deserted island stranding scene. You could cobble together tools to solutions other people have no answers to, seemingly without a roll. And it could lead to hilarious memories like "the time the goblin blasted arm and leg holes into a cauldron to use it as full plate." But it'll probably have a ton of restrictions on it, still need a ton of rolling, and then get nerfed in the FAQ despite nobody using it.
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Apr 6, 2018 13:43
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It's a pretty glaring example of what's changed in the last 20+ years of design. A game designed today would just empower a goblin character to do all of that stuff. It's what a player has in mind as they write GOBLIN on the character sheet.
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Apr 6, 2018 14:04
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I can see what they're going for. They want you to be able to choose the archetype you most want to pursue. However, the poor balance between them and the fact that even the baseline of each archetype is locked means your options end up kind of pigeonholed. I think you could get some cool designs out of hybridizing these options. Maybe having both fire specialization and scrap specialization lets your improvisations explode when they break, for example.
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Apr 6, 2018 16:24
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The Bee posted:I can see what they're going for. They want you to be able to choose the archetype you most want to pursue. However, the poor balance between them and the fact that even the baseline of each archetype is locked means your options end up kind of pigeonholed. Are these really fully archtypes though? Is this really customization? Or is this poo poo that should already be present in the game? moths posted:It's a pretty glaring example of what's changed in the last 20+ years of design. Yeah, it's kinda hilarious that now, as a goblin, you have to give something up to have bitey teeth. That's not a thing you can just have, you have to actually sacrifice something just so your goblin can bite things. EDIT: Like, there's a blog poist out now for elves and dwarves, and yeah, it looks like the ONLY thing all members of an ancestry start with in stone are their attributes, everything else is an "ancestry feat." Except attributes are the number one thing that ACTUALLY clamps down on and stops customization! They kept the most boring thing about their races and got rid of everything else! On top of that, if the ancestry feat was something "in-born," you can ONLY take it at level 1. Want bitey teeth and also the craft feat? Better take bitey teeth first, otherwise you can never take it again. And, again, very clearly no attention was actually paid to to what these ancestry feats should ever actually do, they're just catagorized as "PART OF YOUR SPECIES," nothing else. So goblins don't start with bitey teeth and have to spend a feat on it, even though all it gives is a free shortsword you likely never want to use, where elves can get a feat that gives a free "open" skill every day. These mechanics aren't just bad - they're decrepit. ProfessorCirno fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Apr 6, 2018 |
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Apr 6, 2018 21:05
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"You get 10 Hit Points from your ancestry—more than the other ancestries and MUCH more than the elves!" Note: the elves get 6 Hit Points. Is... that really "MUCH more"? Four points? I mean, I get that they're trying to make it all sound cool and spiffy to generate hype, but this just feels unusually, I don't know, insincere?
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Apr 6, 2018 21:22
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Sage Genesis posted:"You get 10 Hit Points from your ancestry—more than the other ancestries and MUCH more than the elves!"
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Apr 6, 2018 21:32
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Elysiume posted:Where is that a quote from? If it's like Starfinder where your race gives hit points, racial hitpoint differences are negligible past level 2. http://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo5lkoy?Big-Beards-and-Pointy-Ears
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Apr 6, 2018 21:33
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Elysiume posted:Where is that a quote from? If it's like Starfinder where your race gives hit points, racial hitpoint differences are negligible past level 2. From the blog post Cirno mentioned. Sorry, didn't see there wasn't a link yet. Big Beards and Pointy Ears
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Apr 6, 2018 21:33
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So elves have 6, dwarves have 10, most races probably have 8ish. In Starfinder races give you 2-6hp, and your first class level will give you 5-7 hp and 5-7 + con stamina. So your race is the difference between a combined 16 health and 20 health, assuming 14 con. By level 2 it's the difference between 30 and 34. 
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Apr 6, 2018 21:37
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ProfessorCirno posted:These mechanics aren't just bad - they're decrepit. I feel like Savage Species actually handled monster PCs better, and that thing was a trainwreck. Sage Genesis posted:"You get 10 Hit Points from your ancestry—more than the other ancestries and MUCH more than the elves!" Is it per level? That would actually be good and cool.
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Apr 6, 2018 21:43
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moths posted:Is it per level? That would actually be good and cool.
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Apr 6, 2018 21:44
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moths posted:Is it per level? That would actually be good and cool. In the Leveling Up post, they said that at 2nd level: "... get some more Hit Points (8 + Constitution modifier for a cleric, for example)" I would think that if Ancestry was also factored in, then it would've been mentioned here as well. So my money's on level 1 only.
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Apr 6, 2018 21:47
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quote:Elves can see in dim light, and have the highest speed of all the ancestries at 30 feet. (Going to three actions per round brought the other ancestries that were as fast as elves in Pathfinder First Edition down to 25 feet from 30.) I know what this means, but... how does that flow? Why does 3 actions a round mean that everyone that isn't an Elf needs to be reduced to 25 feet of movement? To say nothing of how anyone that already had lower than 30ft movement is still lower than the new average of 25 judging from how Dwarves still have a 20ft land movement speed. Like, I know that this is a super minor thing but the terrible non-justification makes it seem way more absurd and nonsense than it really is.
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Apr 6, 2018 22:02
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If there's ever a question on how something works, look to see if Starfinder did it, and assume they're copying it. So yeah. Ancestry will be added to your level 1 HP, and...that's it.
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Apr 6, 2018 22:32
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