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ummel posted:An artillery shell? Well that's interesting. So it may have been counter battery fire? No, because artillery isn't so inaccurate that you'd hit a hospital when you were trying to hit a truck nearly a mile away This would have to have been a deliberate shelling or bombing of the site by the IDF Edit: vvvv nessin posted:Is there more proof of the audio being fake? The original claim was literally "we played this for two Arab journalists and they both agreed this couldn't be real". I haven't seen anyone able to trot out a native speaker who would back the syntax or dialect of the conversation as of yet The people who speak the language who have heard it all seem to say it sounds absurd, just completely wrong in multiple ways, and I'm not going to argue with a native speaker over how their language is supposed to be spoken Engorged Pedipalps fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Oct 20, 2023 |
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Oct 20, 2023 21:21
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selec posted:I can’t get my head around ignoring the faked audio. Like how do you trust a source after they try to pull that poo poo? Is it just “everybody lies, so what” and move on? Because that level of ostentatious disrespect for the people trying to make good faith arguments on your behalf seems rhetorically suicidal. Does releasing fake audio mean you are beyond caring what anyone thinks, and just feeding the people you need to feed propaganda to keep the cognitive dissonance tamped down internally? That’s the only sense I can make of it; they aren’t actually interested in convincing anyone, they intend to act with impunity, and frauds and faked evidence are for consumption by true believers, not intended for meaningful consideration by anyone else. Is there more proof of the audio being fake? The original claim was literally "we played this for two Arab journalists and they both agreed this couldn't be real".
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Oct 20, 2023 21:23
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nessin posted:Is there more proof of the audio being fake? The original claim was literally "we played this for two Arab journalists and they both agreed this couldn't be real". Starts at about 1:39. tldr version is that it's 2 separate audio recordings spliced together.
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Oct 20, 2023 21:27
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selec posted:I can’t get my head around ignoring the faked audio. Like how do you trust a source after they try to pull that poo poo? Is it just “everybody lies, so what” and move on? Because that level of ostentatious disrespect for the people trying to make good faith arguments on your behalf seems rhetorically suicidal. Does releasing fake audio mean you are beyond caring what anyone thinks, and just feeding the people you need to feed propaganda to keep the cognitive dissonance tamped down internally? That’s the only sense I can make of it; they aren’t actually interested in convincing anyone, they intend to act with impunity, and frauds and faked evidence are for consumption by true believers, not intended for meaningful consideration by anyone else. I don't know if the audio was faked or not, but taken at face value it didn't seem particularly conclusive even if it wasn't faked. It was just two guys speculating in real time about what happened. Unless I saw the wrong audio transcript.
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Oct 20, 2023 21:30
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HonorableTB posted:That's...a really good point I didn't think about. I am an idiot It's something that the media blackout of the Palestinian condition causes to be a common mistake. Everyone here in the U.S. just kind of assumes the Palestinians and Israelis are always at a low-level background hum of shooting/bombing each other. Hardly anyone here knows that the West Bank hasn't really been violently rebelling against Israel in decades, nor that what they've gotten for their peaceful approach is to be absolutely annihilated by settlements. We all want to believe a fairy tale that peaceful resistance always wins out like it did for Gandhi and MLK, but it's been a loving disaster for the West Bank.
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Oct 20, 2023 21:30
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https://twitter.com/dimitrilascaris/status/1715137246431449451?s=46 Real strong “we investigated ourselves and found that we did nothing wrong” from Israel and the US backing them up
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Oct 20, 2023 21:31
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selec posted:I can’t get my head around ignoring the faked audio. Like how do you trust a source after they try to pull that poo poo? Is it just “everybody lies, so what” and move on? Because that level of ostentatious disrespect for the people trying to make good faith arguments on your behalf seems rhetorically suicidal. Does releasing fake audio mean you are beyond caring what anyone thinks, and just feeding the people you need to feed propaganda to keep the cognitive dissonance tamped down internally? That’s the only sense I can make of it; they aren’t actually interested in convincing anyone, they intend to act with impunity, and frauds and faked evidence are for consumption by true believers, not intended for meaningful consideration by anyone else. Last year, a US citizen wearing full press regalia was assassinated by an IDF sniper in broad daylight, and the IDF threw the whole playbook at the story, claiming she was actually assassinated by militant Palestinians to frame them, that she was gunned down by Palestinians by accident, that she got caught in the crossfire of a shootout and that it's impossible to determine which side fired the final bullet, before settling on "okay maybe we did it, but if so it was an accident and no one will be held responsible" after months of pushback, which the US state department uncritically accepted. There is allegedly an ongoing FBI investigation into the matter, but both the Department of Justice and Israeli authorities refuse to acknowledge it. That is the most pushback the IDF has received from the US for committing a war crime and openly and transparently lying about it, so why should they bother putting any effort into it? It won't matter that it gets debunked.
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Oct 20, 2023 21:56
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All they had to do was throw up enough of a smokescreen for a day or two and it's already out of public discussions. Real hosed up thing was Shireen was an American too. That's why she had access into parts of Israel and Palestine that others wouldn't. Probably why she got assassinated. E2M2 fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Oct 20, 2023 |
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Oct 20, 2023 22:10
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Zzulu posted:Hamas has never been interested in improving Palestine. It's not their stated goal or their mission. The mission is to destroy Israel and create an islamic state on their territory under sharia law - this is how they came to be in the first place. What a crock of poo poo. You zionists have the long term memory of a goldfish. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 20, 2023 22:14
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Last year, a US citizen wearing full press regalia was assassinated by an IDF sniper in broad daylight, and the IDF threw the whole playbook at the story, claiming she was actually assassinated by militant Palestinians to frame them, that she was gunned down by Palestinians by accident, that she got caught in the crossfire of a shootout and that it's impossible to determine which side fired the final bullet, before settling on "okay maybe we did it, but if so it was an accident and no one will be held responsible" after months of pushback, which the US state department uncritically accepted. I had forgotten this part: quote:During the funeral, Israeli Police officers attacked pallbearers who were carrying her coffin from the Saint Joseph Hospital in East Jerusalem with batons and stun grenades.[13] The hospital itself was stormed by Israeli police who hit, shoved, and trampled on patients, threw stun grenades, wounding and causing burns to medical staff.
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Oct 20, 2023 22:20
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https://twitter.com/lrozen/status/1715177479642509671 https://twitter.com/centristsFTW/status/1715203571967533088 Is the U.S. trying to cover this up? Willo567 fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Oct 20, 2023 |
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Oct 20, 2023 22:21
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Nm: wrong thread
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Oct 20, 2023 22:31
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https://twitter.com/osinttechnical/status/1715407002015297717 https://twitter.com/democracynow/status/1713900853818523840
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Oct 20, 2023 22:31
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selec posted:Is keeping an apartheid state as bad as being a terrorist organization? To me, they’re basically the same thing. You could even argue the apartheid state is worse because they have the power to control their own destiny, which Hamas really doesn’t have total control over their own future the way Israel does. Lol, Lmao! But go on pleaase (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 20, 2023 22:32
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Hamas released two American hostages, largely in part to Qatari negotiations, and, specifically pointed out in statements, no thanks to "Joe Biden and his fascist administration". https://x.com/ShaykhSulaiman/status/1715413571427811694?s=20 The hostages are Judith Raanan and her daughter Natalie of Evanston, Illinois.   Meanwhile, Netanyahu is busy writing off hostages in front of their families so he can continue his bombing campaign, even throwing in ringers as fake family members. https://x.com/abesilbe/status/1714852909576339876?s=20
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Oct 20, 2023 22:34
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Hamas is releasing hostages. Biden spoke with the family of two of the American hostages: https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-10-20-23/index.html
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Oct 20, 2023 22:34
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Jen heir rick posted:I'm sorry you perceive me as hostile that isn't an apology and it's not a matter of just their perception, you were incredibly hostile towards them from the word go. they came in and said "hey the BBC interviewed a guy who said this at such and such time, does anyone else know anything about this" and it's fine if the thread's collective answer is just 'no'. you don't have to go find the interview based on that information if you don't want to and you don't owe them a conversation about the implications of a vague report of an unlinked interview but chill out. Engorged Pedipalps posted:I'm glad you reposted this picture because I've been having a little trouble finding it and I want to point out a few notable things about this and why I don't think this was a rocket: I'm not saying the IDF didn't do it but I'm quite confident it wasn't a 2000lb bomb, that would have done a lot more. this is a video of a test explosion that hopefully makes that clear. Note that the car right at the impact point got spread over a wide area, not set on fire. With respect, damaged shingles and windscreens are not usually 'severe damage', fragmentation can easily go that far; blast radius and kill radius are different things. To be clear I'm also not trying to reopen discussion of which side was responsible. The doppler and fragmentation analysis was interesting and I await further input from experts - I don't have any reason to rule out an artillery shell. Regardless of that particular result, as discussed over the past several pages there are plenty of other actions Israel/the IDF are taking that are clearly wrong so it probably isn't helpful for us to get bogged down in divining who did this one specific thing before the experts can compile a full report. Sorry for necroposting, I don't check in here that frequently, hopefully this was useful.
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Oct 20, 2023 22:35
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there is a wide variety of weapon systems it could be other than a 2000lb bomb. ruling a single thing out sheds virtually no light on any of the significant, outstanding questions. really the whole thing just needs to be rigorously investigated, but it appears efforts to do that will be blocked.
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Oct 20, 2023 22:44
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Former Republican Representative of Michigan, Justin Amash, reports that several of his family members were killed in the bombing of the Saint Porphyrius Church in Gaza. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/20/gaza-church-strike-saint-porphyrius/ https://x.com/justinamash/status/1715470077196194068?s=20 Edit: I edited out some editorializing because I felt it was crude. Young Freud fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Oct 20, 2023 |
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Oct 20, 2023 22:59
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Herstory Begins Now posted:there is a wide variety of weapon systems it could be other than a 2000lb bomb. ruling a single thing out sheds virtually no light on any of the significant, outstanding questions. really the whole thing just needs to be rigorously investigated, but it appears efforts to do that will be blocked. I think the same reasoning applies all the way down to 250lb and therefore rules out the entire class "airstrike" rather than an individual munition. That said, agreed, I should've just dropped it, that specific hospital explosion isn't really decisive with regard to the overall picture and either way I'm definitely not going to figure it out from here.
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Oct 20, 2023 23:01
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Hadn't seen the video of the bombing with audio until that Chan 4 video, and with audio it's so obviously not a rogue Hamas rocket
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Oct 20, 2023 23:27
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I'm not clear on why it would rule out "airstrike" as an applicable term. There are many air to ground weapons that are launched by aircraft that less than 250lbs. Not that it matters, the issue is clearly the fact that there are genuine questions about Israel's claims regarding the hospital bombing that are unlikely to be resolved as neither they or the United States seem interested in finding out what happened, a thing I personally find pretty illuminating.
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Oct 20, 2023 23:28
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Jaxyon posted:Hadn't seen the video of the bombing with audio until that Chan 4 video, and with audio it's so obviously not a rogue Hamas rocket Yeah the first time I saw/heard that clip it was obvious bullshit and in combination with the rocket they blamed disintegrating in the Al Jazeera footage they themselves cited it's impossible it was the culprit. At least when they lied and blamed a rogue Islamic Jihad rocket on the five dead kids the video being pushed on Twitter showed a rocket flying sideways they don't even have that here.
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Oct 20, 2023 23:35
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Ciprian Maricon posted:I'm not clear on why it would rule out "airstrike" as an applicable term. There are many air to ground weapons that are launched by aircraft that less than 250lbs. Current most likely guess is that it was an Israeli howitzer shell, not a bomb, and certainly not a misfiring rocket. https://x.com/forensicarchi/status/1715422507283443898?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q For context, Forensic Architecture isn't just a random OSINT nobody outfit, but a serious, well-respected organisation that's part of the University of London.
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Oct 20, 2023 23:39
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tiaz posted:I think the same reasoning applies all the way down to 250lb and therefore rules out the entire class "airstrike" rather than an individual munition. That said, agreed, I should've just dropped it, that specific hospital explosion isn't really decisive with regard to the overall picture and either way I'm definitely not going to figure it out from here. Israel has DIME munitions so even making a statement like that is drawing conclusions beyond what can be supported
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Oct 20, 2023 23:40
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Darth Walrus posted:Current most likely guess is that it was an Israeli howitzer shell, not a bomb, and certainly not a misfiring rocket. Yes I saw this interpretation of the evidence in the Channel 4 video posted before. I interpreted another poster to be saying that an explosive under 250 pounds rules out an airstrike categorically, which is what I was commenting on. I think the assessment from Forensic Architecture makes a case for not an airstrike but not exclusively because of the weight of the munition used. It's still a moot point. We will never know because Israel and the U.S. do not want us to and I think that tells us a lot! Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Oct 20, 2023 |
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Oct 20, 2023 23:51
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Carmant posted:What a crock of poo poo. It’s in the preamble of their proclamation. Right next to a rejection of any peace treaty, past or future. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter Edit: I had no idea they updated the language in 2017 from eradicate all Jews to just zionists. I guess that’s something.
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Oct 20, 2023 23:56
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mannerup posted:I don't see how that distinction makes them any different from ISIS, whose entire purpose of existing was to establish a state. I view political groups that organize and orchestrate atrocities against civilians, women and children as morally repugnant no matter how many nice things they did to gain support from the local population.
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Oct 21, 2023 00:08
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tiaz posted:I'm not saying the IDF didn't do it but I'm quite confident it wasn't a 2000lb bomb, that would have done a lot more. this is a video of a test explosion that hopefully makes that clear. Note that the car right at the impact point got spread over a wide area, not set on fire. With respect, damaged shingles and windscreens are not usually 'severe damage', fragmentation can easily go that far; blast radius and kill radius are different things. I don't know, that looks about right? The fireball goes out to 50 meters in the video, so one can assume the bulk of the destructive force is going to be in the center of that fireball. A bomb is going to have very different properties when it lands on packed ground and cobblestone, so there's just going to be less distortion on the ground. Everything within 30 meters of the crater is completely destroyed, everything in that picture that is not within 30 meters of the crater is at least damaged. Windshields don't knock out easily or break easily. Cars, being made of metal, do not easily burn. It takes a lot of pressure and force to make a car's gas tank explode. It takes a lot of heat to make a car fully combust. I've seen a lot of news stories about rocket attacks over the years, I get that a rocket can gently caress a car up, but I've never seen a story where rockets do that much damage to that many cars at once.  The artillery explanation makes a lot of sense and I think will ultimately be what proves to be correct. I just get the feeling some people are underestimating the destructive force involved. I get what people were expecting to see was a collapsed hospital, and what they saw was a destroyed parking lot, but if you look at the aftermath of the blast in a critical way it's clear that this was a massive explosion. Willo567 posted:https://twitter.com/lrozen/status/1715177479642509671 I want to talk about this but I don't know what to say. This is real hosed up? There's no way to interpret this situation that isn't incredibly sinister all around? Engorged Pedipalps fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 00:39
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HonorableTB posted:Israel deliberately poisons the water supply in Gaza so the issue of digging up pipes is kind of pointless anyway because what use are pipes if all they carry is contaminated water. Do you have a source for this incredible quote that doesn't refer to events from 1948? Groovelord Neato posted:Absent US financial support to Israel Hamas would not exist as it currently does nor would it have won any elections. I'd rather nobody turn things into weapons but claiming they just shouldn't make weapons is a laughable position - they are kept in a prison. They are turning abandoned water pipes into rockets because of Israel's actions - actions Israel can take due to our continued support. US financial support led to the creation of Hamas? Can you connect the dots here? Civilized Fishbot posted:I think everyone is this thread would agree that the US shouldn't support Saudi Arabia. Non-military support is good actually and in the long term it probably helps countries move towards more western and democratic values. At least as long as the support reaches the people that need it and doesn't get stolen by corrupt bureaucrats along the way. Terebus fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 00:53
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mannerup posted:Reason my responses has been disproportionately focused on Hamas is because it has been a controversial position in the thread argued ad nauseam over whether their actions are/were morally justified and whether specific atrocities actually occurred. If somebody comes in here attempting to morally justify the actions of Israel, I would challenge them on that. Speaking of the atrocities committed by Hamas, Israel's National Center for Forensic Medicine has been working hard on identifying the victims. Multiple articles have come out in recent days, with one from "the media line" showing some pretty NSFW pictures. I won't post those pictures here, but some commentary on its content includes the following: -Hands belonging to one of the victims killed by Hamas on October 7, 2023. The victim was bound at the wrists—as seen by marks that the bindings left behind—and then burned alive. -Charred remains and a CT scan of the remains show a parent and child who were bound together and burned alive by Hamas terrorists on Oct. 7. Two spinal columns—one of an adult and one of a child—can be seen in the scan. The pair were likely embracing as they burned. -“Many have gunshot wounds in their hands, showing they put their hands up to their faces in defense. Many were burned alive in their homes. … We know they were burned alive because there is soot in their trachea, their throats—meaning they were still breathing when set on fire.” It's important to note that the Center is claiming that forensic pathologists, anthropologists, radiologists from Israel, America, Switzerland and New Zealand have come in to assist efforts. Can dig deeper to confirm this if necessary.  https://themedialine.org/top-stories/evidence-on-display-at-israels-forensic-pathology-center-confirms-hamas-atrocities/ contains the pictures. Obviously, NSFW.https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/17/hundreds-of-israeli-bodies-remain-unidentified-10-days-after-hamas-attack https://www.timesofisrael.com/foreign-media-given-unprecedented-access-to-forensic-institute-to-witness-atrocities/ (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Somebody fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 01:00
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Terebus posted:Do you have a source for this incredible quote that doesn't refer to events from 1948? Couldn't find anything myself on Israel putting literal poison in the water supply for Gaza, but the water situation there has always been bad. Israel has intentionally allowed it to get terrible, it's one of the more quiet ways in which they are committing genocide on the Palestinians https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/10/12/gaza-undrinkable-water-slowly-poisoning-people this is something I wish more people in the west knew about Gaza, is the situation there has been extremely terrible for years now, and all of it is at the hands of Israel and all of it is intentional.
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Oct 21, 2023 01:15
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Terebus posted:Do you have a source for this incredible quote that doesn't refer to events from 1948? https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/gaza-israel-water-pollution-slow-poisoning-population quote:The long-term Israeli blockade has caused a "serious deterioration" of water quality in Gaza, making 97 percent of the water contaminated, according to the Geneva-based Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor. https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR2515.html quote:The main source of Gaza's water, its aquifer, is being depleted and its quality diminished by seawater intrusion, wastewater seepage, and agricultural runoff. https://www.timesofisrael.com/gaza-sewage-poisoning-strips-residents-threatening-israel/ quote:But while Israel has a clear interest in Gazans repairing their water infrastructure, that would likely require it to ease restrictions on the import of building materials — which it fears the territory’s Hamas rulers could divert for military purposes — and increase the amount of electricity it sells to Gaza. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/10/12/gaza-undrinkable-water-slowly-poisoning-people quote:At the 48th session of the UN Human Rights Council last Monday, the Global Institute for Water, Environment and Health and the Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor said water in Gaza is “undrinkable” and “slowly poisoning” people. And I could keep going. Israel isn't sneaking in the shadows with a balaclava and dumping a bucket of cyanide into a well or whatever, but they ARE deliberately preventing any kind of infrastructure development that would give Gazans non-sewage water to drink. That is a deliberate and calculated policy in line with the rest of what they do to Gaza. If you make 2 million people drink contaminated sewer water because you forbid any kind of development which would mitigate or help the problem, you have in fact willfully poisoned those people through your policy.
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Oct 21, 2023 01:16
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Terebus posted:US financial support led to the creation of Hamas? Can you connect the dots here? Israel could not carry out any of its operations against or relating to the Palestinians without US financial support so anything Israel does in regards to Palestine can ultimately be traced back to our support. Israel supported Hamas at its inception to weaken the secular Fatah and by Netanyahu's own admittance it was used because by his own words they could control the "height of the flames". We also backed the attempted coup by Fatah against Hamas (as did Israel and Egypt) which led to Hamas entrenching itself in Gaza and it being split from the Fatah governed West Bank.
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Oct 21, 2023 01:20
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This is in the West Bank rather than Gaza, but Israel absolutely has a strategy of depriving Palestinians of water: https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1684775691018240001
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Oct 21, 2023 01:22
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Personally I feel that there is a distinction between "Israel prevents Gaza from having fresh water" and "Israel deliberately poisons Gaza drinking water" that isn't just pedantic. The latter extremely strongly implies somewhere between "has industrial contaminants they deliberately dump" and "deliberately acquires poison for the purpose" which is very very different from being huge shitheads on the logistics and infrastructure level. that said, I like source posting a lot so this worked out, thanks
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Oct 21, 2023 01:30
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I mean, Zionists are for all intents and purposes Nazis and the Hamas charter states that Zionists should be eradicated. I am not defending Hamas's tactics or their potentially loose definition of Zionist (it should not and can not include children) but their cause, as stated, is one of self defense, not aggression. As for the difference between poisoning a water supply and purposefully preventing water from being decontaminated, the end result it what matters, not the logistics. FLIPADELPHIA fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 01:41
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Google Jeb Bush posted:Personally I feel that there is a distinction between "Israel prevents Gaza from having fresh water" and "Israel deliberately poisons Gaza drinking water" that isn't just pedantic. The latter extremely strongly implies somewhere between "has industrial contaminants they deliberately dump" and "deliberately acquires poison for the purpose" which is very very different from being huge shitheads on the logistics and infrastructure level. I feel like there isn't much, if any, room between those because in both situations the harm comes from a deliberate policy choice. If you enact a policy to do this and go through all the work of implementing it and enforcing it, I don't understand how that's meaningfully any different from the video of Israeli soldiers dumping cement into a fresh water source. Both on the macro and the micro level, the problem comes from the desire to remove Gazans at scale. The only semantical difference I can see is that the soldiers dumping in cement only harm the people in the immediate area who depend on that water, while governmental policy enforcing a blockade resulting in sewage water impacts the entire Gaza Strip
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Oct 21, 2023 01:42
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theCalamity posted:https://twitter.com/sh_grewal/status/1715418185921699975?s=46 Thanks for posting these. It certainly seems to reinforce what many of us already suspected/believed about the Israeli version of events, and of their evidence.
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Oct 21, 2023 01:59
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