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Homeless Friend posted:The water table, though it'll penetrate a wee bit but harden pretty soon. It's an odd way of describing whats happening. They're clearly sealing the well, that is to say denying a water source, rather than poisoning the well, making the water itself impotable but leaving it available. quote:On 13 July 2004, residents of Hirbat Atwana near Hebron found rotting chicken carcasses in their well after four Jewish settlers were seen in the village. Israeli police said they suspected militant Jews from a nearby settlement outpost called Havat Maon. Settlers blamed the action on "internal tribal fight between the Palestinians;" Israeli police spokesman Doron Ben-Amo said it was "unlikely" that the Palestinians would contaminate their own well. On 9 December 2007, members of Christian Peacemaker Teams, an American NGO, reported to have observed a group of Israelis stop next to a cistern in Humra Valley, open the lid, and raise the bucket. The water was later found to be contaminated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settler_violence#Well_contamination_and_water_access quote:Oxfam's Geoff Graves took me to Madama, a Palestinian village near Nablus, where neighbouring Israeli settlers poisoned the village's only well and shot at aid workers who came to clean it. Most villagers now buy water from passing tankers, but not all can afford it. Ahmed Qot, a poor farmer, told me he spends three hours every day carrying pots on his donkey to get water from a nearby village for his nine children and five farm animals. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2006/mar/01/guardiansocietysupplement4 Do these documented examples pass your criteria for poisoning water sources? HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 07:44 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 07:41
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Groovelord Neato posted:Israel could not carry out any of its operations against or relating to the Palestinians without US financial support so anything Israel does in regards to Palestine can ultimately be traced back to our support. Israel supported Hamas at its inception to weaken the secular Fatah and by Netanyahu's own admittance it was used because by his own words they could control the "height of the flames". We also backed the attempted coup by Fatah against Hamas (as did Israel and Egypt) which led to Hamas entrenching itself in Gaza and it being split from the Fatah governed West Bank. Israel would absolutely be able to maintain the oppression of Palestinians without US financial support. US support for Israeli apartheid and war crimes is certainly morally bad, but let's not overstate things. Israel was a major military power fully capable of defeating its neighbors and oppressing its minority population long before it got meaningful US support. Madkal posted:Is this a way of saying "kill a lot of Jews but don't say we are killing a lot of Jews" because I hate to tell you who the majority of Zionists are that you want to be eradicated. When Native Americans in the 1800s said they opposed Manifest Destiny and were willing to fight against its proponents, did they secretly mean that they really just wanted an excuse to kill a bunch of white people? Given that Zionism is an ideology dedicated to the creation of a Jewish-supremacist state on Palestinian territory, I don't think we need to go looking for secret reasons and hidden meanings in a Palestinian group's feelings about Zionists. HonorableTB posted:Excuse me but you're saying pouring cement into water would...NOT poison that water? People would still be able to drink it? This is a baffling claim Pouring cement into the well doesn't make the water poisoned, it makes the water inaccessible, because the water is blocked off by cement. Pouring cement into a well is a standard method of sealing it and rendering the water inaccessible. They're not poisoning the water, though they are rendering the well unusable. Note that I'm not saying that it's good to seal the well!!!! While there are various potential good reasons to seal wells under certain circumstances, this particular event is almost certainly related to the Israeli colonial authorities' policy of preventing Palestinians in the West Bank from expanding their infrastructure. Israel controls water permitting (and other construction permits) in most of the West Bank, and notoriously rejects nearly all Palestinian permit requests. So then Palestinians figure that the Israeli authorities won't ever issue them permits anyway, so they dig wells and build houses without permits, and then eventually Israel finds out and sends crews to seal the illegally-dug wells and knock down the illegally-built houses. Meanwhile, Israeli settlers have no trouble getting permits, and even if they illegally build stuff without a permit, the authorities turn a blind eye to illegal settler constructions.
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Oct 21, 2023 07:55
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Dude, if there is no material difference then just use the correct version. If you say 'Israelis are denying the Palestinians water' that is correct and easily verifiable. If you say 'Israelis are poisoning the water in gaza' you may be correct in a number of niche ways, but you are pumping in so many intuitive ideas that people know aren't true that they will think you are a liar. You are actively hurting your own point doing this.
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Oct 21, 2023 07:58
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Israel is ensuring the contamination of Palestinian water supply! Poisoning the water is when they pour a big vial with a skull and crossbones down in the well. If you want to be taken seriously you need to know this stuff
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Oct 21, 2023 08:04
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One of the Israel plans in 1948 was poison wells in Arab villages, and that was official policy then. so, I can't see it being a stretch that they might do it again, concrete just seals it though which for someone without a way to break through you are denying them water.
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Oct 21, 2023 08:06
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Taking steps to ensure that the only water Gaza has access to is brackish water is, in fact, poisoning gaza's water supply. Israel has drained the acquifer to the point that brackish water invades it and has forbidden Gaza the ability to drill deeper wells to access a fresh acquifer. That is poisoning gaza's water supply I get that brackish water is not the popular conception of poison, but it's not a potable water source nonetheless
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Oct 21, 2023 08:24
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I said come in! posted:From everything i've seen online, even their own people hate both the IDF, and their government. lol (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 21, 2023 08:35
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Trying to argue that Hamas doesn't mean it when they say they want to kill all Jews looks ridiculous when not 2 weeks ago they were going house to house slaughtering entire families, including infants, in what ended up being the worst massacre perpetrated against Jews since the Holocaust. Their actions made it abundantly clear what their charter means.
Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 09:11 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 09:09
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I said come in! posted:I think we can at least agree that the Israeli government, and its military, are extremely evil and need to be dismantled entirely. From everything i've seen online, even their own people hate both the IDF, and their government. If you think the Israeli government/army is "evil", I don't know how you'd describe them if they acted like the Israeli public currently (mostly) wants. The government is a little bit restrained by international opinion, the US and just logic. The populace is not.
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Oct 21, 2023 09:32
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kiminewt posted:If you think the Israeli government/army is "evil", I don't know how you'd describe them if they acted like the Israeli public currently (mostly) wants. The government is a little bit restrained by international opinion, the US and just logic. The populace is not.
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Oct 21, 2023 09:50
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Trying to argue that Hamas doesn't mean it when they say they want to kill all Jews looks ridiculous when not 2 weeks ago they were going house to house slaughtering entire families, including infants, in what ended up being the worst massacre perpetrated against Jews since the Holocaust. Their actions made it abundantly clear what their charter means. Did they kill every Israeli they came across?
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Oct 21, 2023 09:57
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:And when he isn’t taking softballs from AJ he is claiming they only killed soldiers and making it clear the purpose was to incite all Arabs into war against Israel. He knows who this reporter is and is playing right into Israel talking points. Dumb leader.
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Oct 21, 2023 10:56
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Trying to argue that Hamas doesn't mean it when they say they want to kill all Jews looks ridiculous when not 2 weeks ago they were going house to house slaughtering entire families, including infants, in what ended up being the worst massacre perpetrated against Jews since the Holocaust. Their actions made it abundantly clear what their charter means. It also just feels strangely inconsistent to look exclusively at Hamas's statements towards Western facing outlets and take them at face value.
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Oct 21, 2023 11:18
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hadji murad posted:Did they kill every Israeli they came across? No, they took some as hostages, that's totally much better! There's literally traffic cam footage of Hamas technicals going off-mission and veering wildly to chase after civilian cars fleeing from them. The entire goal was inflicting existential terror on Israelis via killing everyone possible (and it definitely did work, in a classic case of 'be careful what you wish for'). Denying that at this point despite the voluminous evidence to the contrary is kind of nuts.
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Oct 21, 2023 11:44
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Lum_ posted:(and it definitely did work, in a classic case of 'be careful what you wish for'). Do you think Hamas didn't expect this? Israel killed over 2000 Palestinians when three teenagers were killed. They killed hundreds when a soldier was kidnapped. Also yeah taking people hostage is better than killing them. I would say if they took 1000 civilians and a few hundred cops and military hostage it would've been a lot better than killing them. Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 12:19 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 11:59
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How do we go about destroying both Hamas and the Israeli government
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Oct 21, 2023 12:41
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hadji murad posted:Did they kill every Israeli they came across? They killed every Israeli they couldn't kidnap, did they not? Zzulu posted:How do we go about destroying both Hamas and the Israeli government We could try showing them this thread. In other news: https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/10/21/rafah-border-crossing-between-gaza-egypt-opens-for-aid-trucks Truncated quote:Egypt-Gaza Rafah crossing opens, allowing 20 aid trucks amid Israeli siege ummel fucked around with this message at 12:49 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 12:41
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ummel posted:They killed every Israeli they couldn't kidnap, did they not? They did not no.
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Oct 21, 2023 12:50
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Groovelord Neato posted:They did not no. I'll take your word for it, but I was under the impression the at least tried to kidnap or kill everyone they came across, even non-Israelis (eg, Arabs & Asian migrant workers). Have there been survivor stories where people were spared? Genuinely asking because I haven't seen any. What I'm referring to: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-hamas-migrant-workers-thailand-philippines-nepal-rcna120249 https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/13/world/middleeast/arab-israeli-hamas-attacks.html
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Oct 21, 2023 13:02
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There was one (1) documented instance where Hamas let 2 people go instead of taking them to Gaza with them, in addition to the hostage release yesterday. There is a LOT of documentation of Hamas specifically not doing that. Mostly from Hamas itself (GoPro footage of massacres and the like).
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Oct 21, 2023 13:04
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ummel posted:I'll take your word for it, but I was under the impression the at least tried to kidnap or kill everyone they came across, even non-Israelis (eg, Arabs & Asian migrant workers). Have there been survivor stories where people were spared? Genuinely asking because I haven't seen any. One of the first videos that came out afterwards was a woman talking about how one of the militants in her house asked to eat a banana. I don't know how she'd do the interview if she'd been killed or kidnapped back to Gaza. There were a number of similar interviews in the immediate aftermath how is anyone posting in this thread unaware of this?
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Oct 21, 2023 13:13
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Groovelord Neato posted:One of the first videos that came out afterwards was a woman talking about how one of the militants asked to eat a banana. I don't know how she'd do the interview if she'd been killed or kidnapped back to Gaza. There were a number of similar interviews in the immediate aftermath how is anyone posting in this thread unaware of this? Maybe that's the one (1) documented instance (it's not). The reporting immediately following suggested different groups of militants behaved very differently. Some committed horrific atrocities, some were much less bloodthirsty. But it's also natural to focus reporting on the atrocities. Brucolac fucked around with this message at 13:22 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 13:14
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I don’t think it’s all that surprising that young men who’ve grown up knowing nothing but the sliver of land in which they live, which is regularly bombarded by their oppressor, food and water denied to them and their families, medical aid withheld from everyone they know, their community hurt and kneecapped at every turn, their friends with literal blown out knees because they decided to peacefully protest one day, when faced with their oppressor for the first time tend to do some pretty horrendous things. THIS IS NOT ME EXCUSING IT. It is me saying it’s exactly what you’d expect someone who’d only ever grown up with brutal, life-denying oppression to do when, for a few moments before their own bloody end, the shoe is on the other foot. The furious, illogical, brutal and violent actions of the oppressed do not make the cause of their people any less just, or excuse the oppressor. This conflict is an oppressed people resisting a genocidal oppressor, in the same way as any other victim of colonialism before them. Any conversation about it worth having should be framed in those terms.
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Oct 21, 2023 13:17
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Groovelord Neato posted:Do you think Hamas didn't expect this? Israel killed over 2000 Palestinians when three teenagers were killed. They killed hundreds when a soldier was kidnapped.
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Oct 21, 2023 13:19
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Trying to argue that Hamas doesn't mean it when they say they want to kill all Jews looks ridiculous when not 2 weeks ago they were going house to house slaughtering entire families, including infants, in what ended up being the worst massacre perpetrated against Jews since the Holocaust. Their actions made it abundantly clear what their charter means.
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Oct 21, 2023 13:28
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Google Jeb Bush posted:Personally I feel that there is a distinction between "Israel prevents Gaza from having fresh water" and "Israel deliberately poisons Gaza drinking water" that isn't just pedantic. The latter extremely strongly implies somewhere between "has industrial contaminants they deliberately dump" and "deliberately acquires poison for the purpose" which is very very different from being huge shitheads on the logistics and infrastructure level. Destroying and cutting off the supply of sewage processing plants that result in unusable water used by the vast majority of Palestinians doesn't come across as poisoning to you?
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Oct 21, 2023 14:12
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Shageletic posted:Destroying and cutting off the supply of sewage processing plants that result in unusable water used by the vast majority of Palestinians doesn't come across as poisoning to you? Edit: Also examples of literal water poisoning have been provided anyway, making that whole conversation moot. Brucolac fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 14:18
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Jakabite posted:I don’t think it’s all that surprising that young men who’ve grown up knowing nothing but the sliver of land in which they live, which is regularly bombarded by their oppressor, food and water denied to them and their families, medical aid withheld from everyone they know, their community hurt and kneecapped at every turn, their friends with literal blown out knees because they decided to peacefully protest one day, when faced with their oppressor for the first time tend to do some pretty horrendous things. THIS IS NOT ME EXCUSING IT. It is me saying it’s exactly what you’d expect someone who’d only ever grown up with brutal, life-denying oppression to do when, for a few moments before their own bloody end, the shoe is on the other foot. I don't agree with that but taking your argument to its conclusion what would happen if Israel took down the walls around Gaza? It seems that you are saying Israeli oppression has turned Palestinians into insane mass murderers that can't stop themselves from killing any unarmed families, guest workers and tourists they come across. It's a bit too cynical and depressing for me and I prefer to think Hamas is a flawed organization that made some terrible choices that does not reflect on Palestinians generally.
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Oct 21, 2023 14:20
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Brucolac posted:Apparently it's very important that we say things like 'Israel actively and aggressively makes it impossible for Palestinians to access potable water through a range of military and governance approaches' instead. Yeah I was a couple of pages behind, and it's been well established since then.
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Oct 21, 2023 14:24
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 14:27
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I’ll take my 24 hour probe to tell you all that you are a bunch of genocide deniers that would have cheered in the Nazis in the 1930s. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 21, 2023 14:28
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mannerup posted:it’s clear the intent was textbook terrorism; using violence against civilians to achieve political aims, the actions of taking civilians hostage and recording the atrocities themselves to disseminate on social media were in pursuit of those aims. I think trying to frame it as just wanting to slaughter jews for it’s own sake or an oppressor/oppressed framework both fail to adequately describe the nature of the attack Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Hamas destroy a lot of IDF emplacements, overrun several IDF bases and kill or take hostage several high ranking IDF officers? I'm not trying to hand it to Hamas or anything, but just looking at the information available, doesn't the Hamas operation look a lot more like a military operation than the IDF response to date?
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Oct 21, 2023 14:40
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Owling Howl posted:I don't agree with that but taking your argument to its conclusion what would happen if Israel took down the walls around Gaza? It seems that you are saying Israeli oppression has turned Palestinians into insane mass murderers that can't stop themselves from killing any unarmed families, guest workers and tourists they come across. I think Israel taking down the walls would naturally cause a great deal of that anger to dissipate. I don’t think that is the natural conclusion either. The atrocities were committed by young men, ready to die, with probably more adrenaline pumping through their bodies than you or I will ever experience - it’s not like they just wandered out of the walls and set upon any civilians they might find. They were on a suicidal offensive action following a lifetime of oppression. To flip your argument, Israel and a hefty chunk of the population support Israel doing those things weekly for decades. Just because the idea of a guided bomb or a sniper bullet isn’t as visceral to us, the infant child doesn’t particularly care if it’s beheaded by a farming tool or a JDAM. Would you say that makes the Israeli people bloodthirsty animals? I don’t think so.
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Oct 21, 2023 14:42
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 14:47
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Brucolac posted:Maybe that's the one (1) documented instance (it's not). Incidentally, this is very similar to how Israeli militias behaved in 1948. Some massacred entire villages, others were far less bloodthirsty and focused mainly on what was militarily necessity (though they considered "covering up their allies' massacres" to be militarily necessary). It's almost as if loosely-organized coalitions of militants driven to warfare against what they perceive to be an existential threat are very diverse in their approaches.
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Oct 21, 2023 14:51
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mannerup posted:it’s clear the intent was textbook terrorism; using violence against civilians to achieve political aims, the actions of taking civilians hostage and recording the atrocities themselves to disseminate on social media were in pursuit of those aims. I think trying to frame it as just wanting to slaughter jews for it’s own sake or an oppressor/oppressed framework both fail to adequately describe the nature of the attack Ironically similar to the tactics used by Zionists against the British Palestinian Proctectorate in the 1940s  https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...AL1IoXBaEv2yfvY
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Oct 21, 2023 14:54
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Immediately after October 7th, Israeli State Radio interviewed one of the survivors, Yasmin Porat, who mentioned quite a few of the Israeli deaths were from IDF friendly fire, or disregard for civilian lives/hostage lives. She survived because the man from Hamas used her to surrender. The interview was immediately pulled from state radio and she was denounced. https://electronicintifada.net/content/israeli-forces-shot-their-own-civilians-kibbutz-survivor-says/38861 She gave another interview where she mentioned they were treated just fine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fghF54maONw It would not surprise me if a large amount of deaths on October 7th was due to Israeli incompetence, not giving a poo poo about civilian lives, and employing the Hannibal Directive
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Oct 21, 2023 14:54
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 15:02
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mannerup posted:bumping Koos Group's offer for a translation of this There is a transcript in the comment section: quote:Yasmin Porat: For an hour they were banging about 10 terrorists on the reinforced safe room. There were screams in Arabic and it was a very tense hour. And we felt great fear that’s indescribable. After an hour they managed to break in and they removed the four of us to a nearby house where there were already eight other additional hostages. We joined those eight and we were about 12 hostages with 40 terrorists that were guarding us. I’m keeping the story short.
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Oct 21, 2023 15:06
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hadji murad posted:Did they kill every Israeli they came across? No army in history strictly fits that condition. Even the Nazis didn't kill every Jew they encountered, many people were liberated from the camps. The IDF leaves Palestinians alive all the time. The US army did not kill every Native American it encountered. That's what ethnic cleansing campaigns look like in real life, it's not a video game where you kill every enemy or restart the level. To focus on the incidents where a civilian was left alive because of a soldier's personal ethics, squeamishness, or strict adherence to published procedure - that's pedantry on the level of "if there's a genocide in Gaza then how is the population going up?" Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 15:19 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 15:11
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