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treat posted:I'm not defending poo poo, but I also don't feel the need to preface my posts with "kill all pigs forever" and I don't think it's fun or healthy to stew in hatred or mistakes that can't be fixed. Maybe I'm too sentimental, but you come off pinkerton-rear end agro, so maybe we both have weak points? Yes, I expect literally everyone to be willing to risk their life for children that are getting murdered. Doubly so when it is their job and they trained and equipped to do so. Random bystanders and teachers had no problem doing so. That’s a pathetic attempt try to “turn it around” or whatever you think you’re doing. We’re not “asking police to do too much” we’re just not holding them accountable, ever. You don’t need to be a “military operator” to do what the police are expected to do in situations involving violence so loving stop with that poo poo again. You’re just saying the same poo poo over and over.
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Jun 1, 2022 13:52
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:Random bystanders and teachers had no problem doing so. Even more the Right and Cops keep demanding that Teachers have guns to 'solve this on their own', yet the cops themselves cannot be trusted to have the courage to do so. So many double standards.
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Jun 1, 2022 13:54
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The cops actively tried to stop anyone else from intervening. They couldn't have done worse if they were actively aiding the shooter. Hell, maybe they were!
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Jun 1, 2022 14:17
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Reminds me also of the occasional UK stabbing spree that ends with the public wrestling the guy down and then the cops show up to shoot him in the head after the public have already done the work. Literally replace cops with those six foot catch poles they have in asia.
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Jun 1, 2022 14:37
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Ghost Leviathan posted:The cops actively tried to stop anyone else from intervening. They couldn't have done worse if they were actively aiding the shooter. Hell, maybe they were! Preventing random bystanders from charging in seems, in isolation, like a good thing actually? I mean, some trigger happy Texan shooting at the first kids they see might be even worse than the police.
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Jun 1, 2022 15:00
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OwlFancier posted:Reminds me also of the occasional UK stabbing spree that ends with the public wrestling the guy down and then the cops show up to shoot him in the head after the public have already done the work. https://www.statista.com/statistics/319246/police-fatal-shootings-england-wales/ In 2020/21 the police in England and Wales fatally shot one person, compared with three in the previous reporting year, and six in 2016/17. "Police In England And Wales Went Two Years Without Fatally Shooting Someone" https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/police-in-england-and-wales-went-two-years-without-fatally-shooting-someone/ There's some fatal shootings were it's not clear at all if the person shot was a direct danger at that time, like Anthony Grainger or Mark Duggan or Sean Fitzgerald (these three are by the way last ten years, as an example, not last three months). So unless you refer to the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes, in 2005, or you think "shooting a suspected man with bomb belt running towards civilians after a stabbing spree" by the plain clothes cop on London Bridge as "showing up to shoot him in the head" I do not know what you are referring to. British cops are equally bastards, but what you are saying is so far off the hinge of reality, and even a far fetched attempt at comparing any european police service with your american one is ignoring the problem that the problem isn't purely "a cop" problem, it is "an american cop problem". The US has a population four times higher than the UK, and this comparison above already shows how loving off any comparison these countries are. Darrel Wilson shot at Mike Brown with twelve bullets. That's more _bullets_ than Finnish police fired in the same year, on year that incluced a SWAT team in a shootout with Hells Angels. So yeah, ACAB, but this is an american issue at its core. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Jun 1, 2022 |
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Jun 1, 2022 15:23
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PerniciousKnid posted:Preventing random bystanders from charging in seems, in isolation, like a good thing actually? I mean, some trigger happy Texan shooting at the first kids they see might be even worse than the police. I think the problem here is that mass shootings have a very different calculus especially when they involve children. All the rules of thumb about "just let the thief take what he wants" doesn't work out when what the "thief" wants is murder. For example, bystanders charging into danger is exactly what ended the rampage in Uvalde. A bunch of bystanders armed worse than the police snuck their way past the cops and took out the shooter. Cpt_Obvious fucked around with this message at 15:40 on Jun 1, 2022 |
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Jun 1, 2022 15:25
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I have neither the ability nor the desire to steal your american murder cop valour, I point it out because even in the ideal circumstance where the police kill comparatively few people per year, they are still generally incapable of productively responding to outbreaks of murderous violence.
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Jun 1, 2022 15:39
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Whether the cops should have gone in immediately to eliminate the shooter is an open question - I have no idea how well trained Uvalde cops are, and they could all be glorified parking enforcement for all I know. But your average beat cop could have gone in to clear other classrooms and get students to safety if they didn't trust their own shooting in that situation. That said, Uvalde also has a SWAT team they love to publicize, and that recently underwent active shooter training. Where the gently caress were they? The core of it is that sitting outside and waiting for someone else to solve the problem is insufficient. And when your job revolves around public trust, they couldn't have found a more effective way to eliminate that on a national scale.
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Jun 1, 2022 15:42
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It’s not an open question. At all. It’s been well established for at least a decade that moving to confront a spree killer as fast as possible is the only move. Even cops or random concealed carriers just really cannot realistically make the situation worse. Unlike most police and military doctrine which is both untestable and often just marketing from their suppliers there actually is empirical evidence from data that shows that the more time a spree killer has with victims prior to receiving return fire or other sorts of effective resistance the more people die. Even if you go in and spray and hit a bystander and then get merked you at least force the shooter to now be moving much more carefully and slowly while they hunt for more people to kill. I posted the actual SOP of the uvalde police department that also stated this. I highly doubt there is a single department that if they have an SOP about active shooter says anything other than “first cops on scene go straight after the gunman.” In fact I’ll tox that you cannot find a current SOP of a US police department explicitly about active shooters that says “wait and contain” or “wait for the swat team.” The bottom line is that police culture is so rotten they can and do break their own written rules in the name of officer safety with no consequence and have culturally trained themselves to mentally put all non cops outside their circle of humanity. There isn’t a solution that doesn’t require dismantling police unions and putting in real mechanisms to impose discipline on police officers controlled by elected local officials. Unfortunately it will be very hard to get that done, but all this lighter reform bullshit is nibbling around the edges.
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Jun 1, 2022 17:52
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PerniciousKnid posted:Preventing random bystanders from charging in seems, in isolation, like a good thing actually? I mean, some trigger happy Texan shooting at the first kids they see might be even worse than the police. In 99% of crimes sure but if it really is an active shooter, no. There are obviously gun control measures and rolling back policies that lead to a sufficient amount of social alienation for these to be common that would also address the root issues here but banning easy access to semi auto firearms and putting in a real social safety net and healthcare system while undoing gig economy capitalism are even more unlikely than police reform.
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Jun 1, 2022 18:00
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The other huge glaring issue which seems uniquely american is the fractal nature of law enforcement. 15,217 is the population of Uvalde, and it has loving SWAT teams, I mean "SWAT teams", and school cops and what the gently caress not. Who does this agency hold itself accountable to? loving no one besides the city council. That's all. It gets even worse elsewhere, with towns of 3000 people having a Police Chief, a Police Lieutenant, and one part time cop. They literally are accountable to one mayor who is also their cousin. Uvalde's cops just mooch money by hundreds of thousands, but ultimately it is just a few loving losers with humongous budgets, 100k in overtime pay, and no actual standards to hold on to. It's not like it would improve every issue, but having a state police agency or a federal one that always has someone higher to accountable would probably get rid of something like this where losers play SWAT-team with no actual accountability. Just as an example, if the HRT of FBI would fail its fundamental task, I'd imagine it would get reamed to hell and back with the endless amount of bureaucrats above it. But with Uvalde, and so many other cases, there's no one above them. And I'll admit when I first heard the news that they're preventing people from going in, and taking a moment outside, I thought they were doing what they're supposed to. But I was wrong as hell, instead they literally just camped outside and this wasn't a thing that happened in the course of a few minutes, but almost an hour. And crazy too that the Border Patrol Agents weren't even officially called to the scene, but parents of kids. I can't believe that loving Border Patrol agents organized a better assault team in their jeans and off-duty pistols than this loving "SWAT team".
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Jun 1, 2022 18:12
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:In 99% of crimes sure but if it really is an active shooter, no. It's just the cops being complete assclowns in this instance that makese it seem like the better option. Shooting Blanks posted:Whether the cops should have gone in immediately to eliminate the shooter is an open question - I have no idea how well trained Uvalde cops are, and they could all be glorified parking enforcement for all I know. But your average beat cop could have gone in to clear other classrooms and get students to safety if they didn't trust their own shooting in that situation. Cpt_Obvious posted:I think the problem here is that mass shootings have a very different calculus especially when they involve children. All the rules of thumb about "just let the thief take what he wants" doesn't work out when what the "thief" wants is murder.
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Jun 1, 2022 18:50
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mobby_6kl posted:The bystanders were CBP agents? Yes. Their children were in the building.
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Jun 1, 2022 19:47
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OwlFancier posted:Reminds me also of the occasional UK stabbing spree that ends with the public wrestling the guy down and then the cops show up to shoot him in the head after the public have already done the work. This was the guy with the (turned out to be fake/non-working) suicide vest?
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Jun 2, 2022 07:06
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OwlFancier posted:Reminds me also of the occasional UK stabbing spree that ends with the public wrestling the guy down and then the cops show up to shoot him in the head after the public have already done the work. Catch poles are just for the Dabai, we have the 人民武装警察(People’s Armed Police) who are pretty trigger happy when they feel like it.
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Jun 2, 2022 08:21
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Beefeater1980 posted:Catch poles are just for the Dabai, we have the 人民武装警察(People’s Armed Police) who are pretty trigger happy when they feel like it.
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Jun 3, 2022 01:39
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:Yes, I expect literally everyone to be willing to risk their life for children that are getting murdered. Doubly so when it is their job and they trained and equipped to do so. Right, not only should the average person be willing to act, but in this instance the police had taken on an affirmative duty to do so. They signed up and received trained and equipment for it; as law enforcement it was also their particular duty. Which leads me to conclude that they should voluntarily expiate their failing or else be prosecuted and reviled. I believe that a public official that commits a severe criminal offense or abuse of office should be allowed to officially redeem their honour by voluntarily surrendering all assets and going into permanent exile, or by ritual suicide. In a sense this also cleanses the pollution from the public institution. If they do this then they can improve their standing and the standing of the police department to a certain degree, even though this would still remain a terrible and offensive tragedy. I would also say there's some leeway here; I am not necessarily expecting everyone in the department to commit ritual suicide in a public ceremony. It might only be appropriate for the Chief or a handful of ranking figures that made certain decisions and otherwise crippled the response. This position also depends on a full review of the material available; someone would need to confirm the timelines, that police were present while the kids were slowly being executed in the building, etc. Of course, the people involved would have direct personal knowledge, so they could act immediately. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 3, 2022 06:00
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Vahakyla posted:British cops are equally bastards, but what you are saying is so far off the hinge of reality, and even a far fetched attempt at comparing any european police service with your american one is ignoring the problem that the problem isn't purely "a cop" problem, it is "an american cop problem". The US has a population four times higher than the UK, and this comparison above already shows how loving off any comparison these countries are. 100%. I remember doing assignments in my crim justice degree comparing different Western countries' police forces and you basically just have to drop America off the radar because it's so fundamentally different (in many issues, but also policing) as to make any attempt at comparison pointless. On that note, again, American cops kill civilians at a hugely disproportionate rate compared to other countries; but they also get killed at a hugely disproportionate rate compared to cops in other countries. Blame it on guns or American culture or race issues or whatever, but the US is deeply aberrant in so many ways compared to literally every other Western country.
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Jun 3, 2022 08:10
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Useful article discussing how police are increasingly worthless even as more money get poured into them. Large budgets mostly just go to hiring more barely trained thugs driving around in cruisers doing not-loving-much, and their success as solving crimes has gotten worse even as the technology for doing so has improved.
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Jun 3, 2022 15:09
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fool of sound posted:Useful article discussing how police are increasingly worthless even as more money get poured into them. Large budgets mostly just go to hiring more barely trained thugs driving around in cruisers doing not-loving-much, and their success as solving crimes has gotten worse even as the technology for doing so has improved. They're very effective at their jobs. People don't seem to understand what their jobs are.
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Jun 3, 2022 17:33
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The Purpose Of A System Is What It Does
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Jun 3, 2022 17:37
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Jaxyon posted:They're very effective at their jobs. People don't seem to understand what their jobs are. Their supposed jobs at least. In practice the only thing they're good at is ensuring poor people are criminalized early and often.
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Jun 3, 2022 17:51
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Jaxyon posted:They're very effective at their jobs. People don't seem to understand what their jobs are. This is what most liberals don’t understand and why they always reach for technocratic solutions. It doesn’t matter if you tweak incentives and programs here or there because the problem is that the government is actually very very good at what the most concentrated capital interests wants it to do and very bad at what it doesn’t want.
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Jun 3, 2022 18:14
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fool of sound posted:Useful article discussing how police are increasingly worthless even as more money get poured into them. Large budgets mostly just go to hiring more barely trained thugs driving around in cruisers doing not-loving-much, and their success as solving crimes has gotten worse even as the technology for doing so has improved. Adam Smith posted:We observe then, that in cities where there is most police and the greatest number of regulations concerning it, there is not always the greatest security. In Paris the regulations concerning police are so numerous as not to be comprehended in several volumes; in London there are [155] only two or three simple regulations. Yet in Paris scarce a night passes without somebody being killed, while in London, which is a larger city, there are scarce three or four in a year. On this account one would be apt to think, that the more police there is the less security; but this is not the cause. In England as well as in France, during the time of the feudal government, and as late as Queen Elizabeth’s reign, great numbers of retainers were kept idle about the noblemen’s houses1, to keep the tenants in awe. These retainers, when turned out, had no other way of getting their subsistence but by committing robberies, and living on plunder, which occasioned the greatest disorder. A remain of the feudal manners, still preserved in France, gives occasion to the difference. The nobility at Paris keep far more menial servants than ours, who are often turned out on their own account or through the caprice of their masters, and, being in the most indigent circumstances, are forced to commit the most dreadful crimes. In Glasgow, where almost nobody has more than one servant, there are fewer capital crimes than in Edinburgh. In Glasgow there is not one in several years; but not a year passes in Edinburgh without some such disorders. Upon this principle, therefore, it is not so much the police that prevents the commission of crimes as the having as few persons as possible to live upon others. Nothing tends so much to corrupt mankind as dependency, while independency still increases the honesty of the people. Tldr: poverty causes people to prey upon each other, and police do not prevent it The only way to stop crime is to make sure people have enough money where they don't have to be criminals. Cpt_Obvious fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Jun 3, 2022 |
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Jun 3, 2022 18:24
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treat posted:I'm not defending poo poo, but I also don't feel the need to preface my posts with "kill all pigs forever" and I don't think it's fun or healthy to stew in hatred or mistakes that can't be fixed. Maybe I'm too sentimental, but you come off pinkerton-rear end agro, so maybe we both have weak points? Been a minute but just wanted to say gently caress you again! (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 22, 2022 00:46
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Side question- what actually happens to an American police officer when they lose their gun? Is it one of those things, like murder, that they can just walk off? If it's bad for them, how exactly is it bad?
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Jul 18, 2022 23:19
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Cheston posted:Side question- what actually happens to an American police officer when they lose their gun? Is it one of those things, like murder, that they can just walk off? If it's bad for them, how exactly is it bad? You get a week in time out. https://abc7ny.com/guns-new-jersey-state-police-investigation/688854/ I browsed a couple of other sources and that seems to be the standard. If anything happens, which they might not do anything at all because lol American cops.
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Jul 19, 2022 00:00
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Hey guess what That Ferguson activist who mysteriously died after being shot to death, put in his car, and then set on fire had a 900 page FBI surveillance file (of which 850+ pages remain fully redacted) and was harassed by local police at the explicit direction of the feds quote:Ferguson Activist Darren Seals Was Surveilled by FBI, File Shows I wonder why people would jump to such a crazy conclusion that the cops might have killed him. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that he's the sixth person killed in St. Louis in the exact same "shot in the head, put in their car, set on fire" execution style since the Ferguson protests and a police officer was directly implicated in another of those killings. Anyway in current cops doing whatever they want news, the LA Sheriff has decided to go absolutely buck wild against multiple public officials that get in their business quote:According to LASD, the homes of Kuehl and Patricia "Patti" Giggans, who sits on the L.A. County Civilian Oversight Commission that oversees the sheriff's department, were searched Wednesday morning. quote:Ryan ordered sheriff’s investigators, including Dets. Mark Lillienfeld and Max Fernandez, to “cease searching any and all computers seized” from the Metro inspector general’s office until further instruction. Both are members of the sheriff’s secretive public corruption unit that critics say target Villanueva’s political enemies and others who have crossed him. Why indeed
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Sep 16, 2022 19:25
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The Oldest Man posted:Hey guess what I haven't followed all of these murders too close, but is it known that the three who were charged in the murder of Darnell Robinson (Izirarry, Wallace, and Evans) didn't commit any of the other murders (Darren Seals or DeAndre Joshua)? Or the three who are charged in the murder of Antonio Jones (Johnson, Patton, Reasonover)? Or is it unknown if any of those people might have a connection to Seals/Joshua's murders? Kalit fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Sep 16, 2022 |
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Sep 16, 2022 19:56
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The Oldest Man posted:Hey guess what I'm just all out of anger. It's just sad to see something so cruel and pointless. The people trying to make the world a better place always seem to be in the greatest danger.
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Sep 18, 2022 01:15
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activists have been outright targeted and assassinated by police before but also, about MLK Jr's assassination- when the evidence gets laid out it's clear the guy who pleaded guilty was not responsible and was definitely a fall guy. In the 90's when the civil case was happening a lot of media ran to paint the King family and lawyer friends/investigators as trying to do a cash grab but the reality was that it vindicated what a lot of people had known and researched for years. A guy was wrongfully accused, got good but potentially costly legal help making it seem like he had chance to beat the charges but then was convinced to switch to a different lawyer who would do it for "free" but ended up taking the guy's assets and then told him to plead guilty. I am not trying to say or imply the US government was involved in MLK Jr.'s assassination but it's obvious that whatever happened was not on the up-and-up.
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Sep 18, 2022 01:54
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Cpt_Obvious posted:I'm just all out of anger. It's just sad to see something so cruel and pointless. The people trying to make the world a better place always seem to be in the greatest danger. The cruelty is the point.
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Sep 18, 2022 03:15
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Moved from the Tech Nightmares thread(as the robot wasn't really the discussion):Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:the core of our disagreement itt is about whether the armed, hostile, barricaded man who continually swore his intention to murder more cops was an active threat or not if he was not physically firing his weapon at the police in this moment, which is a very silly and fishmechian place for a derail to end up imo. the active shooter who exists in a state of quantum superposition i guess Actually no, a shooter who is being negotiated with is one who has been de-escalated and should continue to be de-escalated. The difference between someone making threats and someone who is actively hurting people should be very obvious to you without bringing in non-Newtonian physics.
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Sep 19, 2022 20:15
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https://twitter.com/rafaelshimunov/status/1574040706074791936 https://atlantablackstar.com/2022/0...rked-on-tracks/ Colorado cops almost literally tie a woman to the train tracks, locking her in their patrol car and leaving it on the tracks until a train hits it. Fortunately she's still alive but with severe injuries. Cops get paid leave.
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Sep 25, 2022 17:30
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This is dumb and childish, but I can’t stop thinking about the clip of Dave Grossman at his Killology seminar talking about how killing gets you “very invested in some very intense sex.”  while a crowd of cops and likely spousal abusers hoots and oinks and slaps their pig hooves together. Not a single good cop pushing back.There were some truly horrific police violence stories in the news this past few weeks, and I have to stop myself from piping up in some thread someone grieving might be reading and saying “police were trained to masturbate to this.” So awful it makes me look bad for pointing it out.
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Oct 13, 2022 05:45
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Dr Christmas posted:This is dumb and childish, but I can’t stop thinking about the clip of Dave Grossman at his Killology seminar talking about how killing gets you “very invested in some very intense sex.” It's both extremely gross that he says that/they cheer it, and also yes it not a thing to bring up when someone is dealing with the horrors of their life in society.
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Oct 13, 2022 18:54
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https://twitter.com/AWKWORDrap/status/1581421174088572928
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Oct 16, 2022 05:43
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https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/27/us/tulsa-police-sergeant-audio-recording-reaj This is what police think of liberal citizens in this country. This guy is in charge of a force of men and women that have the right to kill you or mess your life up forever. It is extremely disheartening.
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Oct 28, 2022 12:11
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ManBoyChef posted:https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/27/us/tulsa-police-sergeant-audio-recording-reaj LA county sheriff has said worse and he has basically an army. Remember that time that I think Minneapolis PD just drove around in a truck taking shots at people on the streets with bean bags to blow off steam?
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Oct 28, 2022 20:38
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