Read Some Real Literature: Anyway hail satantango

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Read Some Real Literature: Anyway hail satantango

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Burning Rain: Jul 17, 2006; What's happening?!?!

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Do it pussy

OK. it's everybody's fault btw, because nobody put a word in for poor Golding

# ? Aug 24, 2018 21:17

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# ? Jun 4, 2024 11:59

Boatswain: May 29, 2012

Burning Rain posted:

OK. it's everybody's fault btw, because nobody put a word in for poor Golding

gently caress Golding!

# ? Aug 24, 2018 22:54

Lil Mama Im Sorry: Oct 14, 2012; I'M BACK AND I'M SCARIN' WHITE FOLKS

im reading terry eagleton's introduction to literary theory and its everything ive ever hoped for from a book with that title

# ? Aug 25, 2018 20:37

After The War: Apr 12, 2005; to all of my Architects
let me be traitor

CestMoi posted:

Just picked up Dictionary of Maqiao which is a book written as a series of dictionary entries that develop into a story through their amalgamation written by someone who claims to have never read Dictionary of the Khazars

That sounds supremely My poo poo.

# ? Aug 25, 2018 22:27

A human heart: Oct 10, 2012

I'm reading 'Porius' by John Cowper Powys and it's cool how he's effortlessly made every fantasy book ever written look like poo poo within the first 50 pages.

# ? Aug 26, 2018 01:37

Sham bam bamina!: Nov 6, 2012; ƨtupid cat

And I'm sure they were all masterpieces before you started it.

# ? Aug 26, 2018 02:36

Burning Rain: Jul 17, 2006; What's happening?!?!

why?

Also, I finished Aquarium and, uh, I legitimely thought it was like half a step above McEwan with some extra wokeness added. The prose was good, the tone well sustained, even if I was expecting something considerably more ambitious after some of the thread regulars' praise, but then the end came and it was as artifical as they get. Good basis for an Oscar-worthy movie though!

# ? Aug 26, 2018 14:23

A human heart: Oct 10, 2012

Burning Rain posted:

why?

Also, I finished Aquarium and, uh, I legitimely thought it was like half a step above McEwan with some extra wokeness added. The prose was good, the tone well sustained, even if I was expecting something considerably more ambitious after some of the thread regulars' praise, but then the end came and it was as artifical as they get. Good basis for an Oscar-worthy movie though!

lol big surprise!

# ? Aug 26, 2018 14:24

CestMoi: Sep 16, 2011

I am shocked Shocked

# ? Aug 26, 2018 14:28

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

I am interested in why you found the ending to be artificial oscar tripe because I had the polar opposite reaction

# ? Aug 26, 2018 17:01

Boatswain: May 29, 2012

Sorry, I got caught up in the spirit of things. Actually I don't care about Golding.

I'm now reading To Live and Think Like Pigs by Gilles Ch�telet, c'est superbien and extremely 90s.

# ? Aug 26, 2018 17:46

The Belgian: Oct 28, 2008

Burning Rain posted:

why?

Also, I finished Aquarium and, uh, I legitimely thought it was like half a step above McEwan with some extra wokeness added. The prose was good, the tone well sustained, even if I was expecting something considerably more ambitious after some of the thread regulars' praise, but then the end came and it was as artifical as they get. Good basis for an Oscar-worthy movie though!

You fell for the Aquarium meme!!

# ? Aug 26, 2018 17:54

Eugene V. Dubstep: Oct 4, 2013; Can't post for 8 years!

I've refused to read David Vann's Aquarium by David Vann for so long that my never having read David Vann's Aquarium by David Vann is now integral to my identity, and I believe that to intentionally read even one word of David Vann's Aquarium by David Vann would be irrevocably to harm a carefully tended self-conception.

# ? Aug 26, 2018 19:08

BravestOfTheLamps: Oct 12, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Lipstick Apathy

An aquandary.

# ? Aug 26, 2018 19:11

Burning Rain: Jul 17, 2006; What's happening?!?!

Mel Mudkiper posted:

I am interested in why you found the ending to be artificial oscar tripe because I had the polar opposite reaction

I mean, in large part it's a character-based story about how hosed up stuff reverberates through generations with people repeatedly doing hosed up stuff... until redemption is found through the power of forgiveness, which allows every character's deepest wish to come true in the end, except maybe the mother, but her arc also finished in the best possible way. How is it not artificial?

Maybe Sundance would be better because of the texture of the story, I dunno.

Also, I feel ridiculous using spoilers in this thread, but knowing the ending would dramatically lessen the impact of the novel, I think.

Burning Rain fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Aug 26, 2018

# ? Aug 26, 2018 19:16

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Eugene V. Dubstep posted:

I've refused to read David Vann's Aquarium by David Vann for so long that my never having read David Vann's Aquarium by David Vann is now integral to my identity, and I believe that to intentionally read even one word of David Vann's Aquarium by David Vann would be irrevocably to harm a carefully tended self-conception.

and

# ? Aug 26, 2018 19:21

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Burning Rain posted:

I mean, in large part it's a character-based story about how hosed up stuff reverberates through generations with people repeatedly doing hosed up stuff... until redemption is found through the power of forgiveness, which allows every character's deepest wish to come true in the end, except maybe the mother, but her arc also finished in the best possible way. How is it not artificial?

Maybe Sundance would be better because of the texture of the story, I dunno.

Also, I feel ridiculous using spoilers in this thread.

I think its a completely different result though. There is no forgiveness and there is no redemption. The grandfather is not forgiven, nor has he been redeemed. Which is sort of the whole point.

This is why I said its the antithesis of the Oscar ending. None of the characters are redeemed or forgiven. Its a much muddier ending, which I like. The grandfather takes in the mother and daughter not because he has become a good person, or because he has been forgiven for the past, but because his own self-awareness of his great failings stopped preventing him from being a proactive person. He abandons the delusion he can be forgiven for what he has done and instead acts to prevent further harm rather than try to make up for the harm of the past. He isn't making anything better, he is just keeping it from getting worse.

I also disagree with the idea that everyone got their deepest wish

The story is also fundamentally about the death of the illusion of parents in the eyes of their children. Things do not end well for the protagonist at all. Sure, she gets to stay with her girlfriend and has a slightly better economic life, but it came at the realization that her mother was weaker than she had always believed. She finally saw her mother as the broken person she was and had to live the rest of her life with this new sort of broken love. The mother is still broken and justifiably angry, but has finally hit the point of exhaustion and sacrifices her self-image and sense of personal will for the sake of her daughter. The grandfather is still essentially in an eternal struggle for some semblance of penance for the past. Which is why I love the ending. No one is better off. No one is worse off. Instead, they have simply moved forward.

# ? Aug 26, 2018 19:31

Tree Goat: May 24, 2009; argania spinosa

i'm reading ada or ardor

# ? Aug 26, 2018 20:22

Ras Het: May 23, 2007; when I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child - but now I am a man.

Tree Goat posted:

i'm reading ada or ardor

I tried reading that once and got highly annoyed like three pages in

I'm reading Benvenuto Cellini's autobiog

# ? Aug 26, 2018 20:24

Burning Rain: Jul 17, 2006; What's happening?!?!

Mel Mudkiper posted:

I think its a completely different result though. There is no forgiveness and there is no redemption. The grandfather is not forgiven, nor has he been redeemed. Which is sort of the whole point.

This is why I said its the antithesis of the Oscar ending. None of the characters are redeemed or forgiven. Its a much muddier ending, which I like. The grandfather takes in the mother and daughter not because he has become a good person, or because he has been forgiven for the past, but because his own self-awareness of his great failings stopped preventing him from being a proactive person. He abandons the delusion he can be forgiven for what he has done and instead acts to prevent further harm rather than try to make up for the harm of the past. He isn't making anything better, he is just keeping it from getting worse.

I also disagree with the idea that everyone got their deepest wish

The story is also fundamentally about the death of the illusion of parents in the eyes of their children. Things do not end well for the protagonist at all. Sure, she gets to stay with her girlfriend and has a slightly better economic life, but it came at the realization that her mother was weaker than she had always believed. She finally saw her mother as the broken person she was and had to live the rest of her life with this new sort of broken love. The mother is still broken and justifiably angry, but has finally hit the point of exhaustion and sacrifices her self-image and sense of personal will for the sake of her daughter. The grandfather is still essentially in an eternal struggle for some semblance of penance for the past. Which is why I love the ending. No one is better off. No one is worse off. Instead, they have simply moved forward.

I'm pretty sure that everybody is better off in almost every imaginable way compared to how they were before the story started. They might not have absolute perfect lives and the protagonist has lost a part of her innocence, but come on. You honestly believe they would ever want to go back to their previous lives?

And it only became possible because the mother forgave the grandfather enough to put her poo poo behind. It literally says so in the end that the grandfather died loved and forgiven. The very last paragraph also has the narrator looking for a way to forgive the hosed up stuff her mother had done, because it was inescapable, thrust onto her. The importance of forgiveness is a very central theme to the novel.

I'm also not sure I agree with you what the novel is ultimately about - although it does play a very important part in the book. To me, it had a more general theme of the realisation that evil can lurk everywhere (that's why the scene with the girls getting scared and lost in the wood out of fear of a fairytale character was there at the end) and learning that you need trust and family bonds to live with that - even after losing the illusions about their perfection.

# ? Aug 26, 2018 21:25

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Burning Rain posted:

To me, it had a more general theme of the realisation that evil can lurk everywhere (that's why the scene with the girls getting scared and lost in the wood out of fear of a fairytale character was there at the end) and learning that you need trust and family bonds to live with that - even after losing the illusions about their perfection.

I struggle to see how you could get this kind of reading out of it but to each their own

# ? Aug 26, 2018 21:31

mdemone: Mar 14, 2001

Well I ordered Terra Nostra after I figured out it was extremely my poo poo.

Also some Foucault but that's neither here nor there.

# ? Aug 26, 2018 21:40

A human heart: Oct 10, 2012

Tree Goat posted:

i'm reading ada or ardor

which one? make up your drat mind!

# ? Aug 27, 2018 00:15

Tree Goat: May 24, 2009; argania spinosa

A human heart posted:

which one? make up your drat mind!

english wasn't his first language so we must forgive his little slip-ups

# ? Aug 27, 2018 00:44

derp: Jan 21, 2010; when i get up all i want to do is go to bed again; Lipstick Apathy

Hi I read 'how fiction works' by James wood and very enjoyed it. Any suggestions for similar?

# ? Aug 27, 2018 01:32

BravestOfTheLamps: Oct 12, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Lipstick Apathy

No.

# ? Aug 27, 2018 10:08

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

derp posted:

Hi I read 'how fiction works' by James wood and very enjoyed it. Any suggestions for similar?

I haven't read that specific title but these are my general "on writing" recommendations:

https://www.amazon.com/Art-Fiction-Notes-Craft-Writers/dp/0679734031/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_14_t_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=ZTPJA0ZFHGR6CFP03722

https://www.amazon.com/Steering-Cra...S792M0M9ZJ3A0PG

# ? Aug 27, 2018 15:09

derp: Jan 21, 2010; when i get up all i want to do is go to bed again; Lipstick Apathy

How does sebald make me feel so weird/uneasy when nothing is even happening

# ? Aug 29, 2018 06:18

thehoodie: Feb 8, 2011; "Eat something made with love and joy - and be forgiven"

Anyone read the occupation trilogy by modiano? Some sort of totally disorienting narrative that I don't really feel smart enough to understand. But I didn't really like it

# ? Aug 29, 2018 08:23

Shibawanko: Feb 13, 2013

I wanna read Sebald, I only read bits and pieces of him. What's the best one to start with?

# ? Aug 29, 2018 10:10

Officer Sandvich: Feb 14, 2010

thehoodie posted:

Anyone read the occupation trilogy by modiano? Some sort of totally disorienting narrative that I don't really feel smart enough to understand. But I didn't really like it

first two books were great, last one sucked. It's the only one i've read by him so idk if he got less edgy as he got older

# ? Aug 29, 2018 15:00

Ras Het: May 23, 2007; when I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child - but now I am a man.

I've not read those but the couple of Modianos I have read have been good. They've both been about characters who don't understand themselves so I haven't got too bothered about whether I understood whjat's going on

# ? Aug 29, 2018 15:08

Eugene V. Dubstep: Oct 4, 2013; Can't post for 8 years!

derp posted:

How does sebald make me feel so weird/uneasy when nothing is even happening

because everything from the broad structure of the narration to little commonplace turns of phrase implicitly connects everyday observations and seemingly unrelated historical trivia to the Holocaust

e: hth

Eugene V. Dubstep fucked around with this message at 15:24 on Aug 29, 2018

# ? Aug 29, 2018 15:16

Jrbg: May 20, 2014

I se bald and eat it!

# ? Aug 29, 2018 15:20

Eugene V. Dubstep: Oct 4, 2013; Can't post for 8 years!

like, the narrator sees a moth on the wall and remarks that it must have gotten confused by the light

which might remind you of silkworms, which are moth larvae

which might remind you of silk production in indoor gardens at a summer palace of the late Qing dynasty, which had a chapter dedicated to it for some reason, that were burned by British troops

which might remind you of his discourse earlier in the book, which seemed out-of-place at the time, on the smuggling of silkworms to Europe

and then sometime later the narrator recalls that 19th C. German schoolchildren, as part of a state-mandated handicrafts education scheme, would learn how to care for silkworms, make silk on frames, etc.

which would involve, at a critical point, dipping several thousand cocoons in scalding water simultaneously

edit: My point is, that's a moth. But Sebald is doing this constantly. He restructures your perception of events and phenomena so that everything seems to recall, perhaps just subconsciously, the systematic murder of millions by the Nazis. Every motif is a Holocaust motif�which maybe is supposed to give some insight into the psyche of a survivor, say. If you're uneasy, you're reading it right.

Eugene V. Dubstep fucked around with this message at 15:43 on Aug 29, 2018

# ? Aug 29, 2018 15:33

Ras Het: May 23, 2007; when I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child - but now I am a man.

Eugene V. Dubstep posted:

which maybe is supposed to give some insight into the psyche of a survivor, say.

Sure, but let's not forget that he was a blue eyed Bavarian whose father was in the Wehrmacht

# ? Aug 29, 2018 15:44

ulvir: Jan 2, 2005

wehrmacht was just regular drafted blokes tho, maybe with the exception of higher-ranking officers

# ? Aug 29, 2018 17:45

Ras Het: May 23, 2007; when I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child - but now I am a man.

Yeah I know, I just mean that there's another layer to it. And that I don't trust Germans

# ? Aug 29, 2018 17:56

Eugene V. Dubstep: Oct 4, 2013; Can't post for 8 years!

Ras Het posted:

Sure, but let's not forget that he was a blue eyed Bavarian whose father was in the Wehrmacht

So he's not himself a "survivor" of the Holocaust, so what? He witnessed postwar Germany collectively wash its hands and pretend nothing happened, or if anything happened then no one still around was to blame, and wrote some sensitive, empathetic, heartbreaking books about it that. And instead of parametricizing the tragedy to an individual experience, instead of appropriating the survivor narrative, he took on the challenge of portraying the sheer unimaginable scope of the crime via suggestion and impression.

e:

V V V

ok

Eugene V. Dubstep fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Aug 29, 2018

# ? Aug 29, 2018 23:18

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# ? Jun 4, 2024 11:59

Sham bam bamina!: Nov 6, 2012; ƨtupid cat

I really don't think Ras Het was being so hostile or dismissive.

# ? Aug 29, 2018 23:20

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