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Rupert Buttermilk posted:This only applies if you have claws instead of hands.  Nah man
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Sep 25, 2014 00:49
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Woolie Wool posted:Of course trickjumping is somehow an inalienable and essential part of arena shooter "competitive play" when one of the most incredibly successful games in the entire genre (UT99) had pretty much none of it except for impact/rocket jumping (which last I checked nobody here has any problem with) Woolie Wool posted:the progenitor of the series (Doom) had movement glitches that were only useful in very limited circumstances and didn't involve jumping at all Woolie Wool posted:and John Carmack himself had openly considered patching it out of Quake Live before he quit Id. Clearly we must save the arena shooter from degenerate casual games like Unreal Tournament and Doom II. koren fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Sep 25, 2014 |
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Sep 25, 2014 01:00
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Woolie Wool posted:Of course trickjumping is somehow an inalienable and essential part of arena shooter "competitive play" when one of the most incredibly successful games in the entire genre (UT99) had pretty much none of it except for impact/rocket jumping (which last I checked nobody here has any problem with), the progenitor of the series (Doom) had movement glitches that were only useful in very limited circumstances and didn't involve jumping at all, and John Carmack himself had openly considered patching it out of Quake Live before he quit Id. Clearly we must save the arena shooter from degenerate casual games like Unreal Tournament and Doom II. So you've completely abandoned your original claim that it's impossible to play quake without trick jumping, then? I can't think of any other reason to retreat to this blubberingly desperate appeal to the authority of hypothetical John Carmack. Who cares if Unreal Tournament has trickjumps? Is there a platonic ideal of arena shooters in your head that definitely does NOT contain trick jumps? If anything, it's a reason to keep trick jumping in quake as a differentiating factor.
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Sep 25, 2014 01:01
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Korendian Leader posted:I don't think that's quite right, but who the gently caress cares what John Carmack thinks about game balance, anyway? Yeah I think it was quake 3 and not quake live. Or maybe even quake 1. But more importantly; Carmack knows pretty much dick about game design. He's just a great engineer. That's why Id's games were mostly just simple shooters showing off his engines (after Romero and co's crazy ideas left, anyways)
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Sep 25, 2014 01:28
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Korendian Leader posted:Quake 3 has always been a much bigger competitive game than UT. quote:Silent BFG, wall running and SR50 are pretty substantial glitches in high level play.
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Sep 25, 2014 01:40
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Babylon Astronaut posted:The actual skills being tested lol. You're repeating the old "my strategy is supreme if it wasn't for those fingerpuzzles" argument. Timing and execution is important. There isn't a fighting game you can't learn the inputs to in a week of playing, the hard part of execution is things like buffering, negative edging, charge partitioning ect that would be completely removed if inputs were simplified even more than they are now. If you have less inputs, you have less moves and less strategies to employ. This is why many of the earliest fighting games are solved problems at this point. You don't like fighting games and don't play them. Cool poo poo, not sure why the entire genre needs to lose complexity until you can be good at them. I take it you've never played Smash then? It's inputs are incredibly simple... and it's still far from 'solved'.
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Sep 25, 2014 01:46
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What I want out of an arena shooter are neat looking maps, rad weapons, and a game that's both fun against friends/pubbies as well as bots in some sort of single player fashion. I couldn't care less about spergin player movement and fullbright solid color texture packs.
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Sep 25, 2014 01:48
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Woolie Wool posted:Considering "competitive" game players in general, not having the "competitive" crowd around works pretty well to its advantage. A revival of the arena FPS will require not a "competitive" arena FPS, but an arena FPS that gives less than a poo poo about esports mlg pro gamer horseshit. Team Fortress Classic was much beloved by many "high level" players for its incredibly complicated grenade tactics. Who the gently caress cares about TFC nowadays? There you go. A general hostility toward the whole notion of competitive players. I'm glad you finally came out and admitted it. Yodzilla posted:What I want out of an arena shooter are neat looking maps, rad weapons, and a game that's both fun against friends/pubbies as well as bots in some sort of single player fashion. I couldn't care less about spergin player movement and fullbright solid color texture packs. Amethyst fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Sep 25, 2014 |
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Sep 25, 2014 01:51
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Keiya posted:I take it you've never played Smash then? It's inputs are incredibly simple... and it's still far from 'solved'. And yet it has a shitload of advanced techniques which are anything but intuitive, but nonetheless raise the skill ceiling and create a big competitive scene. Why do you love wave dashing but hate bunny hopping? Quake and Smash Bros have a lot in common.
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Sep 25, 2014 01:54
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You assume I'm talking about Melee. Wavedashing and Bunny Hopping are roughly equivelent: glitches that turned into hard-to-execute mechanics. Wavedashing was removed for Brawl. It could instead have been assigned a button, of course. Either way, you're back to 'every move is easy to execute' and the depth and difficulty is in positioning etc. I mean, hell, look at Divekick! Incredible depth. Three moves on two buttons, no directional input.
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Sep 25, 2014 01:57
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orphean posted:
It's weird how they used a different base keyboard for the different regions but not different mice:  Also: the leaked Half-Life for Dreamcast was really great too.
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Sep 25, 2014 02:02
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Keiya posted:You assume I'm talking about Melee. Wavedashing and Bunny Hopping are roughly equivelent: glitches that turned into hard-to-execute mechanics. Wavedashing was removed for Brawl. It could instead have been assigned a button, of course. Either way, you're back to 'every move is easy to execute' and the depth and difficulty is in positioning etc. Why does every move need to be easy to execute? If a manoeuvre grants extraordinary advantage it should have a risk of failure associated. Dive kick does not have incredible depth, it's a gimmick toy game.
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Sep 25, 2014 02:04
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Amethyst posted:Why does every move need to be easy to execute? If a manoeuvre grants extraordinary advantage it should have a risk of failure associated. I agree. The mere act of walking should require a complex set of key presses, lest you fall over and trip. I'm still laughing at the idea that Q3 is more accessible than COD.
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Sep 25, 2014 02:06
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Also, this argument has an aesthetic dimension. Your attitude is very top down. The idea that if the players discover something the designers did not anticipate then it should be removed is, to me, really ugly, and detracts from the collaborative interaction between designer and player that makes games great.
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Sep 25, 2014 02:07
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Panzeh posted:I agree. The mere act of walking should require a complex set of key presses, lest you fall over and trip. I'm still laughing at the idea that Q3 is more accessible than COD. Clumsy, plodding hyperbole from an idiot. I've already explained to you why the core verb set of quake three is less complex than COD
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Sep 25, 2014 02:08
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jesus christ who cares
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Sep 25, 2014 02:08
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Roobanguy posted:jesus christ who cares I do
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Sep 25, 2014 02:09
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Amethyst posted:I do why actually dont answer because who cares e: I'VE BEEN PLAYING BTSX2 WITH THE DOOMRPG + DOOMRLARSENAL MOD AND ITS PRETTY FUN IF YOU NEVER LEVEL YOUR SELF UP TO RETAIN SOME FORM OF BALANCE AND DIFICULTY Roobanguy fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Sep 25, 2014 |
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Sep 25, 2014 02:10
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Amethyst posted:Why does every move need to be easy to execute? If a manoeuvre grants extraordinary advantage it should have a risk of failure associated. It doesn't have that, though. At high-level play, everyone can execute it perfectly every time. And this is true no matter how hard it is to execute, because the best players will *always* be the ones who spent tens of thousands of hours perfecting their play. Why require them to spend that time on keyboard ballet instead of learning the ins and out of the actual game? Edit: Amethyst posted:Also, this argument has an aesthetic dimension. Your attitude is very top down. The idea that if the players discover something the designers did not anticipate then it should be removed is, to me, really ugly, and detracts from the collaborative interaction between designer and player that makes games great. Not necessarily removed, you can also get good results integrating it. Look at Tribes. In the first game, skiing was a difficult to pull off maneuver... but it was fun and required skill that couldn't be automated to use correctly. Later titles in the series integrated it as a mechanic where you just had to hold space. All that skill in choosing paths and managing momentum was still there, and it was now accessible from the start. Keiya fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Sep 25, 2014 |
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Sep 25, 2014 02:11
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Roobanguy posted:why Nerd cred? Fights on the internet are to the death? Who knows.
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Sep 25, 2014 02:11
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Keiya posted:It doesn't have that, though. At high-level play, everyone can execute it perfectly every time. And this is true no matter how hard it is to execute, because the best players will *always* be the ones who spent tens of thousands of hours perfecting their play. Why require them to spend that time on keyboard ballet instead of learning the ins and out of the actual game? quote:At high-level play That's the whole point! That's what depth is! As you progress in skill, your verb set becomes richer and another layer of complexity is exposed. By flattening the game to the point where all players access the same verb set, so that beginners bunny hop like experts, the only thing you achieve is a shallower game. Also, "keyboard ballet" is a ridiculous term to use with an action game. Of course timing and button presses matter in an action game! This isn't an abstracted turn based strategy game. As I said before, if pressing certain buttons a certain way is considered "artificial", why isn't lining up a crosshair with an enemy model and clicking the mouse? Execution matters in these games. Amethyst fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Sep 25, 2014 |
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Sep 25, 2014 02:13
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Keiya posted:It doesn't have that, though. At high-level play, everyone can execute it perfectly every time. And this is true no matter how hard it is to execute, because the best players will *always* be the ones who spent tens of thousands of hours perfecting their play. Why require them to spend that time on keyboard ballet instead of learning the ins and out of the actual game? This also strikes me as the reason why MOBAs and modern-style FPSes are dominating fighting games and traditional arena FPSes in both casual and competitive popularity. I like fighting games and used to play them a lot, but I'm a grown rear end adult now that doesn't have time to sit around and practice one frame links for hours on end anymore.
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Sep 25, 2014 02:14
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Right. You don't understand the difference between complexity and depth. Go read up on fundamental game design, then we can talk again.
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Sep 25, 2014 02:16
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pretty soft girl posted:This also strikes me as the reason why MOBAs and modern-style FPSes are dominating fighting games and traditional arena FPSes in both casual and competitive popularity. I like fighting games and used to play them a lot, but I'm a grown rear end adult now that doesn't have time to sit around and practice one frame links for hours on end anymore. So don't. Play against others at a similar skill level and leave high level techniques to players who do have the time to practice.
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Sep 25, 2014 02:16
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Keiya posted:Right. You don't understand the difference between complexity and depth. Go read up on fundamental game design, then we can talk again.
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Sep 25, 2014 02:19
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Amethyst posted:
Imagine four green Keels on the edge of Final Destination with picmip 6. Say a direct copy of the Keel nearest the cliff wavedashes to the back of the line of balls and takes the place of the first Keel. The formerly first Keel becomes the second, the second becomes the third, and the fourth falls off the cliff despite his config that gives him 900 FPS. Pro gaming works the same way.
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Sep 25, 2014 02:20
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Amethyst posted:So don't. Play against others at a similar skill level and leave high level techniques to players who do have the time to practice. I don't. But if you're still baffled as to why people find games like COD or LoL more accessible than Q3 or King of Fighters on a basic level then I dunno what to tell you, maybe you have a learning disability
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Sep 25, 2014 02:20
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I'VE COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT THE SCOUT IS HANDS DOWN THE MOST OP CLASS IN DOOMRPG+DOOMRLARSENAL. BEING ABLE TO KILL A CYBER DEMON IN LIKE 15 SECONDS BY SHOOTING HIM 20 TIMES WITH A REVOLVER YOU CAN EASILY MAKE IS loving RIDICULOUS. SLAP ON A SNIPER AND FIRE STORM MOD ON IT AND YOU MIGHT AS WELL NOT BOTHER WITH ANY OTHER WEAPON.
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Sep 25, 2014 02:21
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pretty soft girl posted:I don't. But if you're still baffled as to why people find games like COD or LoL more accessible than Q3 or King of Fighters on a basic level then I dunno what to tell you, maybe you have a learning disability The reason people are hooked to COD is because they overlay the basic game with psychological compulsion loops, like gun unlocks. "Player investment systems". LOL, on the other hand, isn't popular because it's accessible, I have no idea why you guys bring it up since it essentially counters your whole argument. Game is hardcore as hell and full of esoterica at high levels
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Sep 25, 2014 02:23
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this is a strange place
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Sep 25, 2014 02:28
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We should have a loving Trial of Grievance or something and get this poo poo over with. Edit: loving mechs and poo poo. Shogo multiplayer or anything until someone dies, I suppose. catlord fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Sep 25, 2014 |
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Sep 25, 2014 02:30
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closeted republican posted:Imagine four green Keels on the edge of Final Destination with picmip 6. Say a direct copy of the Keel nearest the cliff wavedashes to the back of the line of balls and takes the place of the first Keel. The formerly first Keel becomes the second, the second becomes the third, and the fourth falls off the cliff despite his config that gives him 900 FPS. How does white tankjr make you feel? Do you not see the clear visual advantages to running a config like this? It also looks nice!
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Sep 25, 2014 02:31
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catlord posted:We should have a loving Trial of Grievance or something and get this poo poo over with. This beats talking about lovely old duke nukem IMO
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Sep 25, 2014 02:34
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Korendian Leader posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_P6RZfSnu7E This is badass
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Sep 25, 2014 02:35
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I like playing Quake Live with all the graphics cranked up, post-processing on, and overbrights set to high. Come at me.
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Sep 25, 2014 02:38
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Segmentation Fault posted:I like playing Quake Live with all the graphics cranked up, post-processing on, and overbrights set to high. Come at me. Same
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Sep 25, 2014 02:39
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Amethyst posted:You lazy minded hack. You are unable to articulate your ideas because they are fuzzy ephemera based on the emotional reaction you have to losing, so you retreat behind a notion of book learning you don't even posses. Holy poo poo shut up.
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Sep 25, 2014 02:42
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Amethyst posted:This beats talking about lovely old duke nukem IMO Lime green Keels don't use an alien's neck stump as a toilet, therefore Duke is much more awesome than lime green Keels. However, Duke would probably jump at the chance to poo poo down the neck of a QL brightskin. E: The UT shock combo is a pretty good counterpoint to Q3 trickjumping. It's spelled out to you and its mechanics are obvious and transparent (shoot ball, ball goes boom, make sure enemy is near ball when ball goes boom), but actually nailing a decent player with a shock combo in UT is quite hard. Woolie Wool fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Sep 25, 2014 |
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Sep 25, 2014 02:50
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Roobanguy posted:I'VE COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT THE SCOUT IS HANDS DOWN THE MOST OP CLASS IN DOOMRPG+DOOMRLARSENAL. BEING ABLE TO KILL A CYBER DEMON IN LIKE 15 SECONDS BY SHOOTING HIM 20 TIMES WITH A REVOLVER YOU CAN EASILY MAKE IS loving RIDICULOUS. SLAP ON A SNIPER AND FIRE STORM MOD ON IT AND YOU MIGHT AS WELL NOT BOTHER WITH ANY OTHER WEAPON. By the time you stumble upon a Cybie with any class in DoomRL you should be able to take it down in 15 seconds, whether it be with a Scout revolver, a Marine autoshottie, or an autocannon.
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Sep 25, 2014 02:51
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Keiya posted:Why require them to spend that time on keyboard ballet instead of learning the ins and out of the actual game? It is the actual game. Planning and execution. Strategy and tactics. They are both important. You are mentally ill.
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