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BrokenKnucklez posted:They were never really intended on being a cheap car to begin with. BMW M products will always hold better value over the long term vs their standard counterparts. Cheap in relative terms is what I mean. I think the fact that BMW is releasing the E46-sized 2 series means the 3 series and M3 have definitely moved up market. The M3 MSRP has gone up well over 30% in the last ten years, which is a good deal more than inflation, and it has grown in size quite a bit as well. Unless the average customer is much wealthier and prefers bigger cars than their counterpart from ten years ago, I think it is safe to say the 3 series is no longer the entry level sports sedan it once was. This is why everyone is excited for the M235i and potential M2 in the future.
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Aug 13, 2013 23:09
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I was amazed what my white car sold for last year. I'd bought it in '09 for $57K, put on 40K and it sold for $47.5K with about 5K in mods on it. The resale on them is just crazy.
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Aug 13, 2013 23:17
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ynotony posted:Unless the average customer is much wealthier and prefers bigger cars than their counterpart from ten years ago, I think it is safe to say the 3 series is no longer the entry level sports sedan it once was. This is why everyone is excited for the M235i and potential M2 in the future. The new M3 (well out going model) is a way more sophisticated car than the E46 M3 ever could be. Does this translate into a better driving experience? Maybe. Dont get me wrong, I like my E60, but I have really lost interest in it, and have been longing to get back into a E39 540i. I know it sounds like a huge step back, but I felt more connected with my E39 than the E60. I wish BMW would revert back to their roots. A sporty, fun and mildly spartan car in the lower models, and reserve the luxury for the 7 series. The 5er was always a perfect blend of both, but I did drive a newer F10 and found it a very bland experience. But god drat, BMW really got it right with the E39.
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Aug 13, 2013 23:22
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BrokenKnucklez posted:They were never really intended on being a cheap car to begin with. BMW M products will always hold better value over the long term vs their standard counterparts. If that thing checks out that seems like a hell of a deal. I haven't been following E36 prices but that seems cheap for what looks like a pretty clean example.
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Aug 13, 2013 23:43
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BrokenKnucklez posted:The new M3 (well out going model) is a way more sophisticated car than the E46 M3 ever could be. Does this translate into a better driving experience? Maybe. Yeah BMW is going a different direction these days.. I drove the new M6 and was bored with it. It's just fast, nothing about it feels like an M car of old.
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Aug 14, 2013 00:04
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People have been saying that for years. There's that classic picture people have on various car forums comparing the generations of 3 series to Elvis over the years.
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Aug 14, 2013 00:07
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Das Volk posted:Yeah BMW is going a different direction these days.. I drove the new M6 and was bored with it. It's just fast, nothing about it feels like an M car of old. Don't get me wrong, its bad rear end that they can actually make a car so quiet you can't hear the outside world, but in order to make it sporty they have to pump in the sound of the engine? Awful. The whole point of buying an M car is listening to the sweet sounds of the motor.
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Aug 14, 2013 00:11
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BrokenKnucklez posted:The new M3 (well out going model) is a way more sophisticated car than the E46 M3 ever could be. Does this translate into a better driving experience? Maybe. F10 is a small 7 now instead of a big 3. It needs springs/upgraded sways at a minimum to handle more like its forebears. Most of the MBZ converts they are targeting with it are stitch counters who mention "refinement", "class" and "luxury" as opposed to "sport", "performance" and "handling". They are gorgeous though, just big (193 inches long, 4,200 lbs for 550) rscott posted:People have been saying that for years. There's that classic picture people have on various car forums comparing the generations of 3 series to Elvis over the years. Same with Camry/Accord though really
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Aug 14, 2013 00:20
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That's how every car that existed 20-30 years ago is. Cars get bigger and they introduce smaller ones to get younger people to buy them. People buy cars when they are young and keep buying them as they get older. The problem is that they need bigger cars as they get older. So they do focus groups and the people wanting to buy that model complain that it's a little small, so it gets made bigger. So now the cars people bought in their 20s fit their lives in their 40s. Someday people are going to wonder how the Honda Fit got so big. Then BMW will release the .528i and the universe will collapse.
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Aug 14, 2013 00:29
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BrokenKnucklez posted:Don't get me wrong, its bad rear end that they can actually make a car so quiet you can't hear the outside world, but in order to make it sporty they have to pump in the sound of the engine? Awful. To me, an M car has to have a stellar engine (good sound is optional), be engaging to the driver,be light on its feet and utterly transparent in terms of its handling, all while being practical enough that it can be used as an everyday car without a second thought. That's an M car, plain and simple. The problem with where BMW is going is not unique to them. First of all, younger buyers as a whole just can't afford to buy BMWs and Mercs and the like. As such, their demographic in traditional markets (as in, not China) is aging rapidly and put simply, old people don't want hard-riding cars with noisy engines...what they want is a BuickMW. This brings me to the second problem, that being China. They don't care about how the car drives or what it sounds like; all they want is size and badge prestige, along with a helping of comfortable ride quality. None of those things are compatible with traditional BMW values. Finally, the last problem is the Nurburgring and the Gran Turismo generation. These days, many enthusiasts and auto journalists spend so much time flapping on about "Car X goes around in 8:02, which is ten seconds faster than Car Y and is twenty seconds faster than the old X!" The problem here is that it seems like manufacturers are increasingly pandering to these idiots; how else can you explain the Nissan GT-R? All of these things combine in a sort of poo poo stew to give us the current crop of stupidly fast yet totally uninvolved cars that BMW and seemingly everyone else are selling. BMW's problems can be solved with two actions; first, forget about China...you're going to sell a shitload of cars there whether you address their needs or not. Second is to bulldoze the Nordschliefe. The third problem (unaffordability) should slowly sort itself out thereafter.
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Aug 14, 2013 00:48
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rscott posted:People have been saying that for years. There's that classic picture people have on various car forums comparing the generations of 3 series to Elvis over the years. Oh yeah I know how it sounds, but it's painfully true. Going from an ITB'd 8300 RPM F1 motor for the street to something so efficiency and emissions minded that it needs fake engine sounds as Knucklez pointed out, is not evolution of the same formula. It's a complete redesign - this is not Porsche owners raging about electronic steering, this is a major change in direction away from their trademark philosophy. Das Volk fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Aug 14, 2013 |
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Aug 14, 2013 00:51
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That's the problem with trying to brand yourself as luxury as well as sports. There are more luxury buyers than there are sports buyers. A sports buyer looks at the specs. They want the horsepower, they want the suspension, they want the right transmission. These things are expensive, so that means the sportiest trim might be the most expensive. Luxury buyers want fancy things. They want the GPS, they want their iPhone to magically play through the car speakers when they get in, they one 20 way adjustable cooling and heated seats. The problem is that these fancy gadgets aren't expensive to make like performance parts. Electronics are kind of cheap, and the technology already exists. You just have to give them a nice bezel. Cost wise the luxury trim isn't as expensive as the sporty trim (wholesale that is, they can mark up electronics all they want). This is a problem as the luxury buyers also want to have the most expensive trim. The most expensive trim is the M version. The M version also has all kinds of cool bullet points they can rattle off to their friends while showing it off. So an old, rich guy buys an M5 or M6 because it's the most expensive one but complains that it rides too rough. So they have to soften it up because there are more old, rich guys who love luxury cars than young, rich guys who want a race car.
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Aug 14, 2013 00:58
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Cojawfee posted:That's the problem with trying to brand yourself as luxury as well as sports. There are more luxury buyers than there are sports buyers. A sports buyer looks at the specs. They want the horsepower, they want the suspension, they want the right transmission. These things are expensive, so that means the sportiest trim might be the most expensive. Luxury buyers want fancy things. They want the GPS, they want their iPhone to magically play through the car speakers when they get in, they one 20 way adjustable cooling and heated seats. The problem is that these fancy gadgets aren't expensive to make like performance parts. Electronics are kind of cheap, and the technology already exists. You just have to give them a nice bezel. Cost wise the luxury trim isn't as expensive as the sporty trim (wholesale that is, they can mark up electronics all they want). This is a problem as the luxury buyers also want to have the most expensive trim. The most expensive trim is the M version. The M version also has all kinds of cool bullet points they can rattle off to their friends while showing it off. Yeah, unfortunately you're right. This is the main reason I bought an E92, I think this is just before where the corner was turned.
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Aug 14, 2013 01:05
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Das Volk posted:Yeah, unfortunately you're right. This is the main reason I bought an E92, I think this is just before where the corner was turned. Ironically, this is pretty much what has been said about about every M3 generation change. You'll find groups of people who will say those same words about the E30, E36, E46, E92, and no doubt they'll say it in the future. Though I do tend you agree with you somewhat, I'm still optimistic about the F30/32 M cars, as well as any possible forthcoming F20 M cars. I'm kind of okay with losing the 5-series to luxury barge land if it means the 3 is the new 5 and the 1 is the new 3. Guinness fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Aug 14, 2013 |
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Aug 14, 2013 01:23
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That's why I think BMW should go whole hog and make something more expensive than the M. Make the M entirely performance oriented. Manually adjusting seats, no GPS, no fancy gadgets and gizmos besides what makes the car go fast. Electronic seat motors are heavy and are useless. Like Jay Leno said in his review of the new Z/28 Camaro, you set the seat position once and it doesn't move for 10 years. Then make something stupid like the N3 or N5 (n for nice) that is nothing but fancy poo poo with soft suspensions and smooth shifting automatics. Mark them up like crazy and say it's the best thing since sliced bread. They won't sell as many M cars, but the people who buy them will be driving them. The downside being that you'll hear douche bags at country clubs saying "M3? Those used to be nice, but it's all about the N3 now."
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Aug 14, 2013 01:34
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ynotony posted:Yea his numbers don't make much sense. I bought my ZHP in 2010, and four year old M3s at the time were closer to 30k, not $19k. Of course a four year old M3 now is closer to $40k, which is pretty crazy. They're no longer reasonably cheap young guy cars. I live in Alabama. Cheap cost of living is about the only good thing about the state. Just looking at autotrader right now, e46 M3s are averaging $15k or so asking price around here, minus a 30,000 mile example listed in the low 20's. Phoenix Yellow has to be the ugliest color BMW ever made so that dude must have been ashamed to drive it.
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Aug 14, 2013 01:48
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Cojawfee posted:That's why I think BMW should go whole hog and make something more expensive than the M. Make the M entirely performance oriented. Manually adjusting seats, no GPS, no fancy gadgets and gizmos besides what makes the car go fast. Electronic seat motors are heavy and are useless. Like Jay Leno said in his review of the new Z/28 Camaro, you set the seat position once and it doesn't move for 10 years. Then make something stupid like the N3 or N5 (n for nice) that is nothing but fancy poo poo with soft suspensions and smooth shifting automatics. Mark them up like crazy and say it's the best thing since sliced bread. They won't sell as many M cars, but the people who buy them will be driving them. The downside being that you'll hear douche bags at country clubs saying "M3? Those used to be nice, but it's all about the N3 now." This isn't as crazy as it sounds, BMW has actually done it before. 
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Aug 14, 2013 02:22
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SuperDucky posted:This isn't as crazy as it sounds, BMW has actually done it before. How many of those were even made? I can't find them mentioned on wikipedia at all.
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Aug 14, 2013 02:47
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Cojawfee posted:That's why I think BMW should go whole hog and make something more expensive than the M. Make the M entirely performance oriented. Manually adjusting seats, no GPS, no fancy gadgets and gizmos besides what makes the car go fast. Electronic seat motors are heavy and are useless. Like Jay Leno said in his review of the new Z/28 Camaro, you set the seat position once and it doesn't move for 10 years. Then make something stupid like the N3 or N5 (n for nice) that is nothing but fancy poo poo with soft suspensions and smooth shifting automatics. Mark them up like crazy and say it's the best thing since sliced bread. They won't sell as many M cars, but the people who buy them will be driving them. The downside being that you'll hear douche bags at country clubs saying "M3? Those used to be nice, but it's all about the N3 now." BMW should take Alpina and make it into this. I mean, modern Alpinas are most of the way there anyways...upscale, trimmed out BMWs with smooth but insanely powerful turbocharged engines. With a bit of advertising they could (and should) make Alpina into the luxury BMW range.
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Aug 14, 2013 03:04
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This might be a SH/SC question but I figure I'll try my luck here. I'm interested in aftermarket ECU tuning, specifically how and who does this? For instance Dinan sells multiple stages of software upgrades, but does Dinan have a team of software engineers who have access to BMW's source or do they use a disassembler to extract the ROM image and reverse engineer the software and make their own modifications? I'm a recent grad who works in the embedded systems field doing real time OS development but I have never really looked into much about automotive ECU code. I would love to take a look at BMW's source code (though I'm sure this isn't easily accessible) or just get an idea of how companies like Dinan modify it. Specifically I develop VxWorks which is currently used for BMW's iDrive system so I am also interested in how they use it, though there probably isn't a lot of info on this. I've noticed there are a few hobby forums around the web for ECU tuning but I haven't found anything specific to BMW. I'm curious how aftermarket companies like Dinan do it and if it's supported by BMW.
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Aug 14, 2013 05:16
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Popete posted:This might be a SH/SC question but I figure I'll try my luck here. In short, no. They hire people to do it the hard way, extract the ROM, disassemble it, decrypt if necessary, which is frequently now, and then make the changes. There's nothing complicated about it.
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Aug 14, 2013 05:37
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Yeah it's probably simpler than I imagine. I'm sure especially for older cars it was pretty straightforward. The CPU/micro just takes in a bunch of PWM and sensor values constantly and makes adjustments to whatever control hardware there is for the individual subsystems. I imagine the modern idrive system for a new M3 is probably a bit more complicated, but BMW does allow by default the user to adjust performance modes. The hard part is interpreting BMW's default algorithm for adjusting hardware based on sensor inputs and then tuning it to allow greater RPM's and fuel mixture without blowing up the engine, would be fun to screw around with the software and see what you could come up with. If only I had a bunch of engine's lying around...
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Aug 14, 2013 05:56
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MrChips posted:BMW should take Alpina and make it into this. I mean, modern Alpinas are most of the way there anyways...upscale, trimmed out BMWs with smooth but insanely powerful turbocharged engines. With a bit of advertising they could (and should) make Alpina into the luxury BMW range. I really like this idea, but so many douchebags have gravitated to the M badge that it might be tainted for life. Maybe turn Alpina into the hardcore division, or introduce a new badge?
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Aug 14, 2013 07:24
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blk posted:I really like this idea, but so many douchebags have gravitated to the M badge that it might be tainted for life. Maybe turn Alpina into the hardcore division, or introduce a new badge? Those 'douchebags' are the people that buy cars; the enthusiasts that buy new cars are probably a very small minority. Look at it more as people to take the huge up front depreciation hit and provide us with parts car / spares when we can finally afford these things. A long time ago it bothered me to see people with no enthusiast interest driving an M or seeing them multiple times a day... until I realized it means that the cars will become cheaper sooner than later and there is a far greater chance to find an unmolested car. BlackMK4 fucked around with this message at 09:24 on Aug 14, 2013 |
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Aug 14, 2013 09:21
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The guys took an evening off from kids & wives to kick some tires and talk BMW. My own 2007 320d:  2008 320i (grey) and 325i (black)  Group shot with us all 
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Aug 14, 2013 10:38
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BlackMK4 posted:Those 'douchebags' are the people that buy cars; the enthusiasts that buy new cars are probably a very small minority. They're definitely a small minority. If you want an F30 335i with a manual transmission and the handling package you're almost certainly going to be special ordering it from the Fatherland. The dealer I went to had 1 manual transmission car on the lot (a 328i M Sport), and they were amazed they got it at all. They stock what sells, and what sells are automatics with 6 side-view cameras and poo poo. The contrast between the critical reception of the F10 and F30 is kind of interesting. The F30 gets a lot of complaints, then typically outright wins the comparison tests anyway like it always has. With the F10 they just straight-up tell you to go by an A6 instead.
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Aug 14, 2013 13:31
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The only place you're going to find a manual transmission anymore is in cheaper sports cars. The rest of the world is moving to DCT which is faster. Except for Jaguar which just has a normal automatic for the F type.
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Aug 14, 2013 13:45
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Isn't the 4-series (F32) suppose to address a lot the concerns people had with the F30?
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Aug 14, 2013 14:45
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I intentionally ordered the lightest and most fun M3 I could option, with a few things I absolutely needed. For example I opted for the manual cloth seats and 6MT, I know the DCT is quicker but it's not as much fun in my opinion I saw myself getting very bored with the DCT within 2 years. The only standalone options I got which don't really weigh much are the Navigation System and Automatic High Beams, the later I chose because it gets me the Homelink mirror without having to shell out for the useless Premium Package. I didn't bother with the Competition Package because if I ever get to that point with the car I'll probably be swapping to an aftermarket suspension set up anyways. So it ended up being almost the cheapest configuration you could order.
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Aug 14, 2013 14:55
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Tab8715 posted:Isn't the 4-series (F32) suppose to address a lot the concerns people had with the F30? Apparently that's the idea. http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2014-bmw-435i-4-series-coupe-first-drive-review
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Aug 14, 2013 16:23
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sean10mm posted:Apparently that's the idea. That front bumper 
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Aug 14, 2013 16:53
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sean10mm posted:Apparently that's the idea. quote:BMW’s engineers are, however, proclaiming that the reduction in steering feel is both inescapable and intentional and that, in line with customer demand, they’ve removed only the “bad” feedback. They seem to believe it when they say they’ve developed the best electric power steering on the market. When we mentioned the Cayman, which offers superb electric steering, we were told that wasn’t fair because the F32 is not a sports car. Fine then, we’ll wait for the M4.
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Aug 14, 2013 17:05
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sean10mm posted:Apparently that's the idea. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rpyMDqKfls
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Aug 14, 2013 17:06
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Koirhor posted:I intentionally ordered the lightest and most fun M3 I could option, with a few things I absolutely needed.  Homelink came with the... PDC I want to say? I got something that included it. So I ended up with those, cloth, and a rear sunshade. It's even got manual seats, so I'm going to weigh it up at the industrial scale I used to weigh my white car. 3540lbs. is the number to beat.
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Aug 14, 2013 17:15
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In fairness the 3er never was a sports car outside the M3. And it's hard to have better steering than a Porsche with no engine over the front wheels. That said they are either a) sticking to the company line like mofos or b) really do disagree with all the critics of their EPS. Then again I went from a '07 350Z to a '13 335 and think the steering is fine so apparently I'm a thalidomide baby or something. 
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Aug 14, 2013 18:04
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Das Volk posted:
Let me know I'd be curious what the car weighs, maybe top off the gas tank or get it on fumes before weighing, either way. Homelink mirrior definately comes with the Automatic High Beams by default. If you choose the Premium Package you get a Homelink Mirror that is slightly different and does not have the automatic high beam module installed. Rear PDC I opted for as well and forgot to mention, I am looking forward to installing the Rear Camera Retrofit when I have it garaged during winter.
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Aug 14, 2013 18:25
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lol. speaking of overpriced ZHP's http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...352616087&Log=0 This is well into E46 M3 land.
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Aug 14, 2013 21:08
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LOL, those are the kinds of ads I would see shopping for 330s 2+ years ago. Even at the low mileage it was overpriced by thousands then, now it's just delusional.
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Aug 14, 2013 21:28
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GrAviTy84 posted:lol. speaking of overpriced ZHP's I want the drugs he's on, that's some good poo poo.
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Aug 14, 2013 21:40
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How much would you guys even pay for that?
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Aug 14, 2013 21:44
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