|
Oh wait but a guy of Hispanic descent was pushing the racist policy, which proves that, uh... well it proves something OKAY!!
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 22:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 20:44 |
|
|
TheImmigrant posted:Spanish is 'white' only in Europe, where people don't understand 'Latino' as used in the Americas. The concept of 'Hispanic' as used in North America seems ill-defined and nonsensical almost to the point of being useless. The only logically consistent definition I'm able to come up with is 'someone who speaks Spanish as a native language or whose ancestors spoke Spanish at one point'. That's it. This is made even worse by the fact that it's often used as a stand-in for race. It leads to baffling posts such as this one: Mr.Pibbleton posted:Now, now, it's not just white people, for the longest time my village only had one half-Dominican half-Hispanic guy to be racist about and I'm not gonna lie, we got a lot of extremely racist mileage out of officer Santos. He's half-Hispanic, half-Dominican? What the gently caress does that mean?
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 22:31
|
|
|
Like all issues of identity, the Latino identity is complicated. Medellin's population is heavily European-descended, yet many people there whom Europeans would consider white self-identify as 'Latino' and 'Paisa.' I know a 100% Sephardi Jew from Medellin who is the embodiment of Latina, and one of my good friends is a black Puerto Rican who self-identifies equally as Latino. The population of Buenos Aires is whiter than that of most cities in Western Europe, and most of the people I know there bristle at being called 'Latino,' considering themselves Europeans. It's not identical to 'races' like white or black or indigenous, but it is definitely an identity. Most of the Spanish speakers in the Americas, unlike Iberians, are some combination of European, African, and indigenous background, with most being at least two of those three. It comes down to whether you think you should prescribe identity for others, or whether you defer to a person's self-identification. I think it's enormously arrogant to be prescriptivist on this matter. At any rate, in the US, we recognize Latino/Hispanic as a distinct identity. It isn't exclusive of racial identity, but it is distinct.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 22:33
|
|
|
Phlegmish posted:The concept of 'Hispanic' as used in North America seems ill-defined and nonsensical almost to the point of being useless. The only logically consistent definition I'm able to come up with is 'someone who speaks Spanish as a native language or whose ancestors spoke Spanish at one point'. That's it. This is made even worse by the fact that it's often used as a stand-in for race. It leads to baffling posts such as this one: Again, a native Spanish-speaker who self-identifies as Latino/Hispanic is. Do you consider yourself better situated to tell someone about their identity than they are? It's no less senseless from my perspective than distinguishing between two blond-haired blue-eyed people as one being Flemish and the other Walloon. quote:He's half-Hispanic, half-Dominican? What the gently caress does that mean? It's meaningless. I know no Dominicans (and I know many) who don't consider themselves Hispanic.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 22:36
|
|
|
Think of it this way. There were two major colonial blocs in the New World: the Anglo and the Iberian. (I'm ignoring the French and the Dutch and the Danish as de minimus.) Those with background in the Iberian - especially Spanish - portions often consider themselves distinct as those from the Anglo portion of the Americas. It's not a difficult concept, unless you are willfully ignorant.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 22:48
|
|
|
The world would be much better off if North-America had kept the Dutch language, and all North-Americans spoke Dutch till this day. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 23:03
|
|
|
TheImmigrant posted:Think of it this way. There were two major colonial blocs in the New World: the Anglo and the Iberian. (I'm ignoring the French and the Dutch and the Danish as de minimus.) Those with background in the Iberian - especially Spanish - portions often consider themselves distinct as those from the Anglo portion of the Americas. You absolutely cannot ignore the French for this argument, and this "Iberian bloc" only exists in opposition to USA, considering how insular Brazil is.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 23:05
|
|
|
TheImmigrant posted:Think of it this way. There were two major colonial blocs in the New World: the Anglo and the Iberian. (I'm ignoring the French and the Dutch and the Danish as de minimus.) Those with background in the Iberian - especially Spanish - portions often consider themselves distinct as those from the Anglo portion of the Americas. I think we've found the problem! "Hispanic" and "Latino" have become racialized categories in the US and English-only bullshit is entirely a reaction to growing Hispanic population numbers. You can call Hispanics just Spanish-speaking white people but they aren't treated like that in US society. They are treated as a separate racial/ethnic group, and although previous generations may have tried to claim whiteness, I would say most Hispanics now see themselves (and are seen by society as) a separate group.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 23:05
|
|
|
TheImmigrant posted:Again, a native Spanish-speaker who self-identifies as Latino/Hispanic is. Do you consider yourself better situated to tell someone about their identity than they are? It's no less senseless from my perspective than distinguishing between two blond-haired blue-eyed people as one being Flemish and the other Walloon. Sure, but it always struck me mostly as a label imposed by North American society on an incredibly diverse group of immigrants that often have little in common other than language and perhaps (but not always) Catholic background. It reminds me of Allende who writes in Mi País Inventado that she was surprised to be considered a 'person of color' when she moved to the United States, simply because she was Chilean. It's true that in Latin America itself there have been attempts to promote a common identity (notably historically significant essays and literary works like Vasconcelos' La Raza Cósmica and Rodó's Ariel), but even then this was mostly in reference and opposition to North America. Then again, the mere fact that it exists as a category in the United States, no matter how 'legitimate', means that it has real significance there. That's how these things work. I also realize that it's highly ironic for me to indirectly be minimizing the importance of language. I won't deny that a certain Latin American cultural sphere does exist, at least on the level of literature and popular culture.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 23:06
|
|
|
Carbon dioxide posted:The world would be much better off if North-America had kept the Dutch language, and all North-Americans spoke Dutch till this day. I believe you mean French.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 23:07
|
|
|
Ras Het posted:You absolutely cannot ignore the French for this argument, and this "Iberian bloc" only exists in opposition to USA, considering how insular Brazil is. Brazil definitely has to be distinguished, I agree. Most Brazilians resent being grouped with Spanish speakers, and reject the Hispanic identity.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 23:11
|
|
|
Phlegmish posted:Spanish is just as 'white' a language as English. Seriously, Americans are so weird about this. Also, 'Aurora Lopez' certainly sounds like a typical Anglo supremacist. Most of the Southwestern US was very sparsely settled (except by Natives) when the US took over, but New Mexico was an exception. They already had an existing racialized class structure, where criollos (rich and powerful people of European descent) ruled over mestizos (mixed European/Native) and indios (Native people living in their traditional societies). This structure wasn't totally disrupted by US colonization, but sort of sits along side it. Hence today, you have descendants of criollos who vote Republican, claim themselves as white, and support policies that are harmful to browner Latinos and Natives. Without knowing anything specific about Aurora Lopez, I would guess that's her deal.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 23:22
|
|
|
TheImmigrant posted:Like all issues of identity, the Latino identity is complicated. Medellin's population is heavily European-descended, yet many people there whom Europeans would consider white self-identify as 'Latino' and 'Paisa.' I know a 100% Sephardi Jew from Medellin who is the embodiment of Latina, and one of my good friends is a black Puerto Rican who self-identifies equally as Latino. The population of Buenos Aires is whiter than that of most cities in Western Europe, and most of the people I know there bristle at being called 'Latino,' considering themselves Europeans. It's not identical to 'races' like white or black or indigenous, but it is definitely an identity. Most of the Spanish speakers in the Americas, unlike Iberians, are some combination of European, African, and indigenous background, with most being at least two of those three. It comes down to whether you think you should prescribe identity for others, or whether you defer to a person's self-identification. I think it's enormously arrogant to be prescriptivist on this matter. Hell, I'm a latino too quote:Hispanic American Volunteers may encounter preferential treatment from some Romanians, many of whom are very proud of, and even defensive about, their Latin origins and view Hispanic Americans as kin. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 23:50
|
|
|
I like the part where it says they are defensive about their latino origins
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 00:05
|
|
|
Phlegmish posted:Louisiana was only theoretically under Spanish control, and for less than four decades at that. Even the Southwest was only very sparsely settled by the time it was conquered by the United States. Texas sure as hell wasn't.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 00:14
|
|
|
Phlegmish posted:Sure, but it always struck me mostly as a label imposed by North American society on an incredibly diverse group of immigrants that often have little in common other than language and perhaps (but not always) Catholic background. It reminds me of Allende who writes in Mi País Inventado that she was surprised to be considered a 'person of color' when she moved to the United States, simply because she was Chilean. Wow, you're not denying that Latin American culture exists? That's very big of you, bravo. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 00:21
|
|
|
Vivian Darkbloom posted:Wow, you're not denying that Latin American culture exists? That's very big of you, bravo. It's a bit reductionist though, even in the US context. East Harlem (working-class Puerto Rican and Dominican) is very different from Miami (de facto capital of Spanish Caribbean), which has little in common with Los Angeles (Mexican) other than Spanish language.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 00:25
|
|
|
420 Gank Mid posted:From what I've heard all internet access in North Korea is a domestic connection that doesn't even get access to mainstream Chinese internet. No, there's a 3g Internet service they provide (which is very overpriced of course) explicitly for tourists. They also have a habit of shutting it off at random, but it's been more or less continuous since late 2012. It's a partnership with a Saudi cell company, iirc.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 00:46
|
|
|
Phlegmish posted:Sure, but it always struck me mostly as a label imposed by North American society on an incredibly diverse group of immigrants that often have little in common other than language and perhaps (but not always) Catholic background. It reminds me of Allende who writes in Mi País Inventado that she was surprised to be considered a 'person of color' when she moved to the United States, simply because she was Chilean. Hispanic is an identity constructed as much by Latin Americans, both inside the United States and without, as it is an identity imposed upon them by others. Hispanic is sometimes called a race because race is an ambiguous concept that often is used as a synonym for ethnicity (i.e. the German Race). I feel some of the confusion over the Hispanic identity comes from the fact that in both the English and Spanish colonies, identities were constructed in terms of skin color, but the rules governing these identities evolved in different, contradictory directions. The Hispanic or Latino identity is a sort of compromise that Latin American immigrants and other Americans could agree on.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 06:05
|
|
|
Squalid posted:I feel some of the confusion over the Hispanic identity comes from the fact that in both the English and Spanish colonies, identities were constructed in terms of skin color, but the rules governing these identities evolved in different, contradictory directions. The Hispanic or Latino identity is a sort of compromise that Latin American immigrants and other Americans could agree on. Spanish identities were much more tied to class than anything else, actually. Like yeah if you were a white person you were on top and if you were black you were on bottom but there's plenty of cases of the same person being classified as Castilian (i.e., from Spain), mulatto, mestizo, and even black, depending on how much income they earned.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 06:08
|
|
|
Phlegmish posted:Sure, but it always struck me mostly as a label imposed by North American society on an incredibly diverse group of immigrants that often have little in common other than language and perhaps (but not always) Catholic background. It reminds me of Allende who writes in Mi País Inventado that she was surprised to be considered a 'person of color' when she moved to the United States, simply because she was Chilean. How can you simultaneously believe that "Latin American" is a label imposed by North American society for the purpose of othering, and that English-only policies that further marginalize them are perfectly fine?
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 06:31
|
|
|
TheImmigrant posted:Again, a native Spanish-speaker who self-identifies as Latino/Hispanic is. Do you consider yourself better situated to tell someone about their identity than they are? It's no less senseless from my perspective than distinguishing between two blond-haired blue-eyed people as one being Flemish and the other Walloon.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 06:42
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:What the hell? The Flemish are part of the Nordic race, a tall and proud martial people, where the Walloons are part of the Alpine race, the stocky peasant backbone of Europe. Maybe uncultured Americans have no sense of these differences, but non-mongrel population have no issue sensing these differences. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 07:23
|
|
|
Phlegmish posted:So what? Why shouldn't that be hard for them, at least outside of the areas where Spanish was historically spoken? Why should it be hard for them? Or do you think making life harder for people is a noble goal in and of itself?
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 07:31
|
|
|
TheImmigrant posted:Again, a native Spanish-speaker who self-identifies as Latino/Hispanic is. What about those who don't actually speak Spanish, though their parents or grandparents did, but still identify as Latino? Because that's a thing too. So being a monolingual English speaker and a Latino are not mutually exclusive. doverhog fucked around with this message at 08:02 on Nov 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 07:50
|
|
|
SurgicalOntologist posted:How can you simultaneously believe that "Latin American" is a label imposed by North American society for the purpose of othering, and that English-only policies that further marginalize them are perfectly fine? I learned Spanish because it is a [European] language with global significance and a rich literary history. It's also a language that was imposed through violent conquest on the Americas, where it is now the overwhelmingly dominant language in about twenty independent countries. Within the context of the United States, I'm not sure that it needs or deserves the same amount of protection as actual indigenous languages such as Navajo. Of course this is just my perspective, since I'm not American the United States' linguistic policy is none of my business.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 08:24
|
|
|
Phlegmish posted:I learned Spanish because it is a [European] language with global significance and a rich literary history. It's also a language that was imposed through violent conquest on the Americas, where it is now the overwhelmingly dominant language in about twenty independent countries. Within the context of the United States, I'm not sure that it needs or deserves the same amount of protection as actual indigenous languages such as Navajo. Of course this is just my perspective, since I'm not American the United States' linguistic policy is none of my business. Well, thanks for sharing anyway.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 08:40
|
|
|
The civilizations that were brutally suppressed by the Spanish had brutally suppressed other native cultures before that, yet we do not make legislation to passively aggressively punish them for centuries old crimes of their ancestors.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 09:18
|
|
|
I think the problem here is whether you subscribe to a popular or territorial view on language. IIRC the United Nations adhere to the popular principle: if enough people in a certain area speak a language, they should get services and government communication in that language. However, in practice a lot of countries use the territorial principle, and not always for imperialist, nativist or racist reasons, e.g. I suppose that if Rhaeto-Roman wasn't enshrined in the Swiss constitution, it might well be extinct by now. That said, it isn't unreasonable to expect people who move to your country to learn the dominant language. Also, whoever said you can't distinguish Walloons and Flemings is right, the main divide is simply language and a little bit of ancestry, I suppose. But even the most fervent nationalist would not be able to reliably tell Walloons and Flemings apart on sight. That's interesting considering the Dutch have a distinct look that most Belgians can recognise almost on sight. e: To me the way some Americans self-identify is also a bit... odd. Like, some guy says "I'm German-American" but that only refers to some distant great-grandfather who came from Wurstenburg-am-Scheißenbach but it doesn't mean anything beyond that.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 09:53
|
|
|
Soviet Commubot posted:English-only crap is entirely about asserting the domination of the ethnically white majority. It also effects people like this: Indiana gets it's name from being The Land of the Indians yet has 0 tribes. America y'all.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 10:08
|
|
|
the jizz taxi posted:Wurstenburg-am-Scheißenbach. The best city. Peanut President posted:Indiana gets it's name from being The Land of the Indians yet has 0 tribes. America y'all. I'm actually kind of amazed that there are still a few Native Americans left in the original colonies.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 10:21
|
|
|
TheImmigrant posted:Spanish is 'white' only in Europe, where people don't understand 'Latino' as used in the Americas. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 11:23
|
|
|
I just want to empty quote and put beneath but really, what the hell?
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 11:30
|
|
|
 From some game getting Kickstarted by a Croatian studio.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 11:34
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 11:40
|
|
|
SaltyJesus posted:
You can't leave it like that; give us the link to the game.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 11:41
|
|
|
Riso posted:You can't leave it like that; give us the link to the game. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/154555351/viktor-a-steampunk-adventure-demo-included You just want to be the emperor of Austro-Hungary, don't you Riso?
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 11:45
|
|
|
Disco Infiva posted:https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/154555351/viktor-a-steampunk-adventure-demo-included Who wouldn't?
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 11:53
|
|
|
I wasn't clear that I meant Spanish as a language. Spanish-speakers (term distinguishable from Spaniards) are only considered unequivocally white in Europe.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 13:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 20:44 |
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:What the hell? The Flemish are part of the Nordic race, a tall and proud martial people, where the Walloons are part of the Alpine race, the stocky peasant backbone of Europe. Maybe uncultured Americans have no sense of these differences, but non-mongrel population have no issue sensing these differences. Where does that leave people from the French Flanders (Chtis!) the middle one, her visigothic genes are showing edit: woops, didn't read the bottom text Kurtofan fucked around with this message at 14:36 on Nov 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 14:33
|
|