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Galadriel was old as poo poo by the end of the Second Age!
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Feb 20, 2024 17:44
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Yoda says Vader must be stopped and conquered. I suppose you could interpret that as hug them to the light side but it was plain to me he wanted Luke to kill them
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Feb 20, 2024 17:45
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euphronius posted:Yoda says Vader must be stopped and conquered. I suppose you could interpret that as hug them to the light side but it was plain to me he wanted Luke to kill them No he doesn't. In ESB Obi-wan says that Luke can't "conquer" Vader without further training. In the same scene, Yoda mentions that Vader and the Emperor must be "stopped." It's not a coincidence that the sword-wielding "Knight" uses the more violent language and the sage who preaches nonviolence uses nonviolent language. Furthermore, I think that if Obi-wan meant "kill" he woulda said "kill." When Luke faces the image of Vader in the weird vision cave, Yoda tells him not to bring weapons, advice which Luke ignores, and then later refers to this experience as a "failure." He says that Jedi don't use the force for attack, only for knowledge and defense. I do not know how Yoda could be more clear that he doesn't want Luke to attack and try to kill Vader.
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Feb 20, 2024 17:59
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ghost Ben in ROTJ is the one who wants Luke to kill Vader and whines that if he won’t do it, then the emperor has already won. Yoda hedges about what precisely Luke should do, and his teachings generally suggest that he should find an alternative solution (counseling him against aggression, telling him he will not need his weapons to fight the dark side). But he never says outright that Luke should lay down his life to save Vader. That’s what Luke brings to the table, love for others that doesn’t care about the risk. first for his friends, then for Vader himself. I think it was dramatically important for the character of Yoda to have had some significant epiphany since the time at which the Jedi got wiped out. Like, if he always had the solution to the problem of the dark side, then how come it won, why were Vader and the emperor able to do what they did? The prequel answer (that he’s reassessing his life and post-life after his gig with the joint chiefs of staff fell through) is certainly jarring and weird. But, I think there had to be SOMETHING there. Similarly the Galadriel question (if she’s so good, how come she’s stuck here pining for Varda?) took Tolkien through quite a few weird and contradictory reworkings of history that never got resolved.
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Feb 20, 2024 18:06
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The story of the Prequels is the story of the fall of the Jedi Order. Yoda being a failure was kind of baked in. The Second Age isn't specifically about Galadriel's failures. She was there, but what is described of her involvement seems to put her in a more contrarian role. But then again some of the elf lords ought to have been played for fools by Annatar, and she's relatively power hungry compared to her peers so it's not unreasonable to have her be flawed, even if the series' interpretation is a massive stretch. Hell, she feels very inconsistent even as her own character. Anyway the elf who should have been the focus of Sauron's deception/weird romance attempt was Celebrimbor, obviously.
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Feb 20, 2024 19:09
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euphronius posted:A different season or show as the OP was saying I watched the first episode in the hotel on a work trip to Japan. The vending machine across the hall sold canned highballs for about $1.50. I don't remember much about the show except that I had no desire to watch the second episode. Basically, Quantum of Phallus posted:Doctor Sleep was miles better than ROP (I was also drunk when I watched Doctor Sleep)
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Feb 20, 2024 19:27
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Thematically appropriate 
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Feb 20, 2024 20:41
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Data Graham posted:This is literally the central question of the RoP show It should really be singula then. 
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Feb 20, 2024 21:02
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"Vala he is that's what you said (Freely you came and) Then your oath's been sworn in vain Never trust the northern winds Never turn your back on friends" "Oh I'm heir of the high lord!" "You better don't trust him" The enemy of mine Isn't he of your kind and Finally you may follow me yeah "Farewell" He said Nightfall
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Feb 20, 2024 22:27
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https://twitter.com/gorangligovic/status/1760073878842351639 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wanderer_(Old_English_poem))  
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Feb 21, 2024 01:42
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Do we have a sense of how many Maiar there were? I know there’s no definite number since w bunch never even come into Middle Earth (or even Arda itself?) but is it like dozens, hundreds, thousands?
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Feb 21, 2024 04:40
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zoux posted:Do we have a sense of how many Maiar there were? I know there’s no definite number since w bunch never even come into Middle Earth (or even Arda itself?) but is it like dozens, hundreds, thousands? Hosts
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Feb 21, 2024 04:46
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zoux posted:Do we have a sense of how many Maiar there were? I know there’s no definite number since w bunch never even come into Middle Earth (or even Arda itself?) but is it like dozens, hundreds, thousands? The classification of Maia only exists within Arda. Anyone outside of Arda is not a Vala or Maia, but an Ainu.
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Feb 21, 2024 04:50
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A couple interesting videos where an artist attempts to portray some of Tolkien's nonhuman creations using only the descriptions in the text: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oKxmaO-CIs He does a balrog in the second part of this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj-cS3k-yTE
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Feb 21, 2024 04:59
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Lol Jazza. I look forward to seeing his dipshit brother Shad get seething mad jealous and try to AI generate some crap to claim his version is better because the prompts were taken straight from Tolkien's writing. Jazza is cool, don't get me wrong. He just has the dumbest brother in the world.
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Feb 21, 2024 06:05
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sweet geek swag posted:The classification of Maia only exists within Arda. Anyone outside of Arda is not a Vala or Maia, but an Ainu. The dudes from Hokkaido? This gets more and more confusing
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Feb 21, 2024 06:52
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Finally finished The Silmarillion last night. Took me a while to get into it but the last half seemed easier for me to get through for some reason. Starting The Fall of Numenor now!
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Feb 21, 2024 14:51
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DeimosRising posted:The dudes from Hokkaido? This gets more and more confusing That's why no Men could sail to the West to meet them: you'd just run into America.
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Feb 21, 2024 21:47
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Is there any discussion about how organized religion works in Arda? I assume the cosmology is well known since you can just go ask an elf about it, but there aren't any churches, or prayers, or any religious practices in LOTR, as far as I can tell. I guess the only kind of religious observance I'm aware of is Morgoth-worship among the black Numenorians.
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Feb 22, 2024 17:19
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Lotr has prayers and religious services. For prayers one famous one is Frodo’s invocation of Elbereth on Weathertop For religious services, there is one in the Hall of Fire with the elves when Frodo et Al visit
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Feb 22, 2024 17:24
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Edit for example in the hall of fire the elves sing this hymn https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Elbereth_Gilthoniel In addition to the Hall of Fire being a “church”, the Cracks of Doom are arguably a church or consecrated space to Morgoth euphronius fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Feb 22, 2024 |
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Feb 22, 2024 17:27
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There was a temple and Eru-worship in Númenor before Sauron corrupted it but that doesn't seem to extend to the Free Peoples in general. The Elves know for a fact the Valar are real so they'll occasionally have gestures of respect, especially if it's one they're genuinely fond of like Varda/Elbereth, along with invocations for important events like marriages. They don't seem to have a clergy - if anyone, I'd expect elven lords and such to be the ones to assume that role if needed. There's even less information on what Men do but it seems to be a vaguely similar deal (Faramir has a gesture toward the west before meal), which makes it seem like their customs derive from the Elves, at least among the learned. And of course, we don't see much of the lower classes in general, which might have entirely different practices. It's part of the idealized worldbuilding I guess. God's existence is beyond question and piety is quietly expressed through a righteous life.
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Feb 22, 2024 17:42
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Yeah it's just kind of weird that a guy as catholic as JRRT would omit organized religion almost entirely. (especially given the work he did in crafting the cosmology) If I walk into Dale and grab the first guy I see and say "How did the world come to be", is he gonna know?
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Feb 22, 2024 17:44
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The Dwarves worship Aule but I don’t think that is in Lotr
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Feb 22, 2024 17:45
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The elves (well the high elves) are basically an organized religion in that they all seem to live moment to moment in communion with the gods especially elbereth.
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Feb 22, 2024 17:47
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zoux posted:Is there any discussion about how organized religion works in Arda? I assume the cosmology is well known since you can just go ask an elf about it, but there aren't any churches, or prayers, or any religious practices in LOTR, as far as I can tell. I guess the only kind of religious observance I'm aware of is Morgoth-worship among the black Numenorians. No, because for Tolkien organized religion is satanic in origin (Christianity excepted, but that is crucially in the future of his setting) and therefore the main characters get little perspective on it. The Numenoreans have religious rituals—before Sauron came into the kingdom, the kings did an offering to Iluvatar on the peak of Meneltarma. And you can still see devotions practiced among them, like the silent prayer toward the west at Henneth Annun, or the out-loud prayer by one of Faramir’s rangers that the Valar keep them from getting trampled by oliphaunts. But even in Gondor there is no state religion, no temples, and no clergy. Gandalf cites the Valar as guarantors of Aragorn’s throne, but he’s the only one—the coronation is far less religious than those of the British monarchs. There seems to have been a thread in Tolkien’s writing as a whole where Thû/Sauron is associated with the invention of (bad) religion. In the fragmentary “Gilfanon’s Tale” in BOLT, he originates as Tû/Tûvo, a morally ambiguous fay-wizard-king guy who teaches the dark elves secret knowledge which they unwisely pass to men—hard to say where this was going. The Lay of Leithian introduces him as if it would be one of the most important aspects of his character: quote:375 Now in that hill was the abode This probably later found its expression in the story of his corruption of Numenor, and the portrayal of enforced Sauron-worship in LOTR. skasion fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Feb 22, 2024 |
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Feb 22, 2024 18:01
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After the War of Wrath, were the previously exiled Noldor only allowed as far as Tol Eressea rather than Valinor proper? I think there's a few mentions of the exile being lifted but I guess not entirely? Whenever it gets specific it seems to only mention Tol Eressea but I'm not clear on whether the Noldor just liked it better there at that point or whether they're still too doomed to hang out with the Vanyar and Finrod and Finarfin. There's a bunch of mentions that humans would suffer from living in Valinor, like that's why the Numenor people had to stay on Numenor etc. Why did they build Valinor like that, did they want to exclude humans to begin with? How did that affect the LOTR crowd like the hobbits and Gimli? Did they also just go to Tol Eressea? Would the Valar have been okay with Numenoreans hanging out in Tol Eressea? The Valar attitude towards humans as a whole still seems kinda lovely. Also what was Earendil's deal, he just gets turned into a star and that's it for him? He's never like "hm might be nice to check in on my kids", just sails across the sky and then maybe hangs out in Valinor during his time off at least as long as the world is flat and they don't need stars during the day? Is this also supposed to read as kind of a Valar punishment on a king of mortal who stepped foot on Valinor? Also, completely unrelated, when people say "the Wise", is that like a specific enumerated group of people, or just generally people somewhere near the level of Galadriel and Elrond? Vanadium fucked around with this message at 11:51 on Feb 25, 2024 |
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Feb 25, 2024 10:24
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Vanadium posted:There's a bunch of mentions that humans would suffer from living in Valinor, like that's why the Numenor people had to stay on Numenor etc. Why did they build Valinor like that, did they want to exclude humans to begin with? quote:How did that affect the LOTR crowd like the hobbits and Gimli? Did they also just go to Tol Eressea? quote:Would the Valar have been okay with Numenoreans hanging out in Tol Eressea? quote:Also what was Earendil's deal, he just gets turned into a star and that's it for him? quote:The Valar attitude towards humans as a whole still seems kinda lovely. Anshu fucked around with this message at 12:52 on Feb 25, 2024 |
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Feb 25, 2024 12:41
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Vanadium posted:After the War of Wrath, were the previously exiled Noldor only allowed as far as Tol Eressea rather than Valinor proper? I think there's a few mentions of the exile being lifted but I guess not entirely? Whenever it gets specific it seems to only mention Tol Eressea but I'm not clear on whether the Noldor just liked it better there at that point or whether they're still too doomed to hang out with the Vanyar and Finrod and Finarfin. My understanding is that in earlier versions, they weren't allowed to fully return to Valinor, yeah. In later versions, as I recall, it merely says they live on Tol Eressea, not that they're forbidden from going further. Make of that as you will.
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Feb 25, 2024 20:41
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Man Fangorn's march on Isengard really is Macbeth isn't it.
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Feb 26, 2024 05:58
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Arc Hammer posted:Man Fangorn's march on Isengard really is Macbeth isn't it. Yeah, it and Eowyn's fighting against the Witch-King were Tolkien thinking that Shakespeare was a scrub and that he could do better. He was right.
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Feb 26, 2024 07:10
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Ravenson posted:Yeah, it and Eowyn's fighting against the Witch-King were Tolkien thinking that Shakespeare was a scrub and that he could do better. Honestly, Tolkien didn't top this: And let the angel whom thou still hast served Tell thee Macduff was from his mother’s womb Untimely ripped
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Feb 26, 2024 07:31
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Anshu posted:No. The Numenoreans were forbidden from sailing any further west than the furthest point from which "the coasts of Numenor could still be seen", and we are told that Tol Eressea could only be glimpsed at a great distance only particularly clear and bright days, and even then only by the most keen-sighted when standing atop a mountain, or "from some tall ship that lay off their western coast as far as it was lawful for them to go". 
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Feb 26, 2024 15:18
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Nessus posted:I wonder what happened if you got caught in a storm or something and blown west of Numenor (possibly while considerably north or south of it). Probably a bird flies overhead and shortly thereafter you get a strong easterly wind. Probably. I figure something similar would happen if a ship happened to stray past the limit but turned back once they realized. As we can see from their dealings with Melkor, the Valar tend to assume good faith until conclusively proven otherwise.
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Feb 26, 2024 17:30
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I doubt it would be possible for a storm to blow you to valinor unless Manwe et.. al. Wanted you blown to valinor. It wouldn't happen accidentally. The storms wouldn't agree to do it.
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Feb 26, 2024 17:39
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And if it did, I would simply leap off the boat and swim back to Middle Earth.
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Feb 26, 2024 17:44
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I doubt it would be possible for a storm to blow you to valinor unless Manwe et.. al. Wanted you blown to valinor. It wouldn't happen accidentally. The storms wouldn't agree to do it. Lemurs on natural rafts, however, he's entirely ok with. Welcome to the undying lands, little guys.
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Feb 26, 2024 18:20
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Phy posted:Lemurs on natural rafts, however, he's entirely ok with. Welcome to the undying lands, little guys.
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Feb 26, 2024 18:26
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I was there Banandalf....3000 years ago when the courage of apes failed...
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Feb 26, 2024 18:29
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A day may come when the courage of Apes fails. But it is not this day. Apes together strong!
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Feb 26, 2024 18:31
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