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“portalling between distinct worlds” is going to be the new version of 2018’s “everything is reflective glass/water” or 2004’s “every surface is reflective for speculate highlights”. It’ll be cool once and then it’ll just be another year or two of developers just absolutely wailing on that dead horse.
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Aug 29, 2020 11:24
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That's an odd take Paul, perhaps the first time I've seen somebody eye the absence of loading screens with some measure of cynicism. I get what you mean a little (I can see games copying Ratchet and Clank's portals a lot) but switching between regions on the fly is a huge improvement to reading loading screen tips
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Aug 29, 2020 11:36
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I want the fast travel cart in Skyrim to look like it's going 500mph while everything is going on around it and drat Bethesda to hell if a single texture visibly pops in.
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Aug 29, 2020 11:53
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ConanTheLibrarian posted:That has been shown in a couple of ways already. Rachet and Clank will use rapid loading to let the player quickly portal to completely distinct environments. I'm pretty sure the Unreal 5 demo mentioned swapping in new textures as the player panned the camera around so the VRAM budget could focus only on what's currently visible (more or less). This is another place where consoles have the advantage since a game dev knows the max turn rate of the camera. Probably won't work with PC FPS games where there will inevitably be people who set their mouse sensitivity so they can 180 in 50ms. so that panning tech wont work in the innumerable console games that also let you change sensitivity?
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Aug 29, 2020 11:59
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You can do anything you want in game development as long as you don't let the player do what they want.
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Aug 29, 2020 12:13
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Paul MaudDib posted:“portalling between distinct worlds” is going to be the new version of 2018’s “everything is reflective glass/water” or 2004’s “every surface is reflective for speculate highlights”. Don't forget the "everything is grey/brown", and "so much bloom you can't see poo poo" trends, from the 2000s
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Aug 29, 2020 12:17
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Paul MaudDib posted:“portalling between distinct worlds” is going to be the new version of 2018’s “everything is reflective glass/water” or 2004’s “every surface is reflective for speculate highlights”. I just look forward to huge open areas rather than this wink-wink kind of stuff.
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Aug 29, 2020 13:07
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You'll still have to deal with invisible walls and various 'wink wink' stuff at some point if for no other reason than the developers just won't have enough time or money to do a truly huge and detailed area.
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Aug 29, 2020 13:10
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From what has been shown so far, Ratchet and Clank still uses a (presumably low poly/texture) transition area when jumping between distinct worlds. It's shorter and less jarring than the tried and true "squeeze through a crevice to hide loading times", but they are still buying some time there.
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Aug 29, 2020 13:40
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mcbexx posted:From what has been shown so far, Ratchet and Clank still uses a (presumably low poly/texture) transition area when jumping between distinct worlds. Makes sense. If you know what assets, lighting, and camera shots you're going to be using to transition between worlds you can bake as much detail as you can afford to into something you can load in half a frame. Even in the worst case of loading off spinning rust, you can know those details literal seconds before you need to present them on screen.
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Aug 29, 2020 13:55
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It represents the extreme end of the spectrum between continually loading little bits of the environment (like the Unreal demo) and loading an entirely new one. It's not hard to picture intermediate scenarios which wouldn't need a protracted loading gimmick like transitions between phases of a boss fight or putting on night vision goggles.
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Aug 29, 2020 14:05
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Kazinsal posted:Makes sense. If you know what assets, lighting, and camera shots you're going to be using to transition between worlds you can bake as much detail as you can afford to into something you can load in half a frame. Even in the worst case of loading off spinning rust, you can know those details literal seconds before you need to present them on screen. i think the days of people pretending they can get by with spinning rust on new games are about to end with both consoles going solid state NVME, instead of, idk, spinning rust on SATA2 i think you just wont be playing games with a HDD soon because they just wont load for you. and, tbh, i will be happy on that day
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Aug 29, 2020 14:21
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Statutory Ape posted:i think the days of people pretending they can get by with spinning rust on new games are about to end with both consoles going solid state NVME, instead of, idk, spinning rust on SATA2 Basically my lukewarm take is that SSDs are gonna become a requirement, but the industry is not gonna jump straight from "hdds are fine" to "6GB/s PCIe4 NVMe drives only" just because the consoles have fast storage now. Productively using those drives in ways that can't be replicated on PC just by having a lot more total memory than 16gb are non-trivial. A sata SSD will be absolutely fine for a long time to come.
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Aug 29, 2020 14:48
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Paul MaudDib posted:“portalling between distinct worlds” is going to be the new version of 2018’s “everything is reflective glass/water” or 2004’s “every surface is reflective for speculate highlights”. So many early 360/PS3 games looked so wet. Eugh.
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Aug 29, 2020 15:13
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mcbexx posted:From what has been shown so far, Ratchet and Clank still uses a (presumably low poly/texture) transition area when jumping between distinct worlds.
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Aug 29, 2020 15:30
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ufarn posted:It could just be me, but it felt like there was a sub-second stutter every time they stepped out of the portal too. I can't say I recall that but it's also a pre-release build so maybe they'll tune it up before release. One thing I hadn't considered previously is that they'll only have >=1tb of storage, doublable at presumably meaningful expense. We know they're using SSD speed as a substitute for more ram since devs have said it, but I wonder how much the compression scheme was designed to primarily fit more games in said limited space with game sizings being what they are recently.
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Aug 29, 2020 15:48
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Statutory Ape posted:i think the days of people pretending they can get by with spinning rust on new games are about to end with both consoles going solid state NVME, instead of, idk, spinning rust on SATA2 I suppose it'll be similar to how games started to refuse to boot when detecting dual core CPUs in a few years. Although I was not expecting the first to list SSD under minimum specs to be World of Warcraft.
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Aug 29, 2020 17:07
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PC gamers probably don't have to worry about getting an SSD as fast as the PS5 . Multi platform (and Xbox) games will be designed to work with the slower storage of the new Xbox, and first party games from Sony will generally not get a PC port.
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Aug 29, 2020 17:13
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Drakhoran posted:PC gamers probably don't have to worry about getting an SSD as fast as the PS5 . Multi platform (and Xbox) games will be designed to work with the slower storage of the new Xbox, and first party games from Sony will generally not get a PC port. The new xbox still has an nvme drive with 2.4GB/s read/write speeds far in excess of typical SSDs which are 550mb/s or so
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Aug 29, 2020 17:42
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Why can't you just be happy for me that I'll be able to play Destiny without it taking 10 minutes to start up and 35% of subsequent play time being loading screens for loading screens? Ha ha just kidding I'm sure Bungie will somehow manage to have a PS5 build that takes fractionally longer to load than the PS4 version does.
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Aug 29, 2020 17:45
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Some Goon posted:One thing I hadn't considered previously is that they'll only have >=1tb of storage, doublable at presumably meaningful expense. We know they're using SSD speed as a substitute for more ram since devs have said it, but I wonder how much the compression scheme was designed to primarily fit more games in said limited space with game sizings being what they are recently. Games already use compression -- with some notably stupid exceptions* -- for their on disk storage. The sony system means they don't need the CPU to decompress stuff, but there's probably not much space advantage. A more meaningful improvement is the xboxxx having audio hardware to decode 100 opus streams in real time, which will hopefully stop devs from filling drives with wav audio because it had a .05% performance improvement. (The PS5 likely has similar capabilities, this is stuff that AMD has done with their TrueAudio Next that uses GPU compute to imitate audio DSPs.) *and sony's compressor won't prevent stupidity, only reduce it by ~50%
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Aug 29, 2020 19:22
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Seamonster posted:PCIE 5 SSDs will surely be able to do it but the PS5 is using GDDR6 as main RAM and the whole thing was architected around that. Almost half a terabyte/s and our DDR4 is pushing ~50 GB/s in dual channel. The raw ~5GB sec of the PS5's NVME is well within the bandwidth available to a PCIE 4 4x connection and we will likely have affordable drives that go beyond that relatively soon (I think there are Rocket PCIE4 drives that are faster already, but they're not exactly cheap). A PCIE4x GPU has 64GB/sec (32GB bi-directional), so the physical connections/raw transfer speed are really not the bottleneck here, it's the CPU involvement and the route the texture data has to take to get into a usable state by the GPU. Even the Series X's slower PCIE3 NVME at 2.4gb/sec still retains the PS5 architecture advantages (as I understand it) with respect to the lack of CPU involvement in decompression and transferring it directly to GPU memory. It's why even with PCIE3x drives, professional-oriented cards like the Radeon Pro SSG which incorporate SSD's right on the GPU show such a huge performance increase in certain scenarios where getting data into the GPU is the bottleneck. Maybe that will become common - a 256gb+ flash 'cache' on the GPU to handle this, albeit not sure how that would deal with the decompression aspect from primary storage, who knows. I don't know to what extent DirectStorage goes on the PC to alleviate this. I don't think we'll have to wait for PCI 5.0 though to have a 'solution' to this, and I don't think even if we did the raw throughput of it would even be the solution required.
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Aug 29, 2020 19:52
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If you have 128G ram, you can keep pretty much any modern game fully cached
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Aug 29, 2020 20:05
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Happy_Misanthrope posted:Maybe that will become common - a 256gb+ flash 'cache' on the GPU to handle this, albeit not sure how that would deal with the decompression aspect from primary storage, who knows. Why wouldn’t they let it sit there compressed and then use the same hardware decompression strategy, if they control both sides of the wire to the SSD?
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Aug 29, 2020 20:05
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taqueso posted:If you have 128G ram, you can keep pretty much any modern game fully cached Yeah don't think that would be a viable solution for 99% of gamers if it's just to avoid stuttering/load times that a $500 console doesn't have
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Aug 29, 2020 20:09
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gary oldmans diary posted:I want the fast travel cart in Skyrim to look like it's going 500mph while everything is going on around it and drat Bethesda to hell if a single texture visibly pops in. I'd rather they remake Morrowind without loading screens.
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Aug 29, 2020 20:21
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Guess that one's for Zen4. Combat Pretzel fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Aug 29, 2020 |
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Aug 29, 2020 20:29
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Happy_Misanthrope posted:Yeah don't think that would be a viable solution for 99% of gamers if it's just to avoid stuttering/load times that a $500 console doesn't have Plus there's always going to be shitily-made games that will stutter and hitch no matter what. Looking at you, Borderlands 3.
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Aug 29, 2020 20:42
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Don't know where people are getting the idea you have to do texture decompression on the CPU on a PC. Of course you don't. You store your textures on disk in the same compressed format they are in the GPU memory and they remain in that format all the way, from RAM to VRAM all the way to the actual point where decompression happens, the texture fetch unit in the GPU.
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Aug 29, 2020 22:01
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gary oldmans diary posted:If you want to show up the PS5 people in a big way, get a bigass RAMdrive and learn to use junction points. Or there are multiple programs specifically for that already. 1TB RAM sticks can't come soon enough.
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Aug 29, 2020 22:22
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Spatial posted:Don't know where people are getting the idea you have to do texture decompression on the CPU on a PC. Of course you don't. You store your textures on disk in the same compressed format they are in the GPU memory and they remain in that format all the way, from RAM to VRAM all the way to the actual point where decompression happens, the texture fetch unit in the GPU. The in-memory compressed texture formats leave a lot on the table, given they have a fixed bitrate and compress every 4x4 texel block separately ignoring any larger scale redundancy. Engines are increasingly adding another layer of compression ("super-compression") on top of the GPU compression to squeeze it down further, which on PC and current consoles needs to be unpacked by the CPU before uploading to VRAM. The new consoles are moving that into hardware - Series X has a dedicated hardware unit for unpacking super-compressed textures, and Sony have a specialized texture encoder that tunes the output to be easier for their general purpose hardware compression to compress. see: crunch, basis, bcpack, oodle texture repiv fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Aug 29, 2020 |
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Aug 29, 2020 22:54
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:Plus there's always going to be shitily-made games that will stutter and hitch no matter what. Looking at you, Borderlands 3. It runs fine for me, but I have a lot of horsepower to throw at it. I think I saw a hitch right after I started playing last night but I assume that was because Windows was checking for updates or something in the background. Dozens of hours in-game and it has been glassy-smooth for me otherwise. It does seem like BL3 is more demanding than it should be - I did turn off a couple graphics settings, like the sharpening filter that appears to exist in order to increase performance demands while simultaneously making the game look worse.
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Aug 29, 2020 22:58
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probably need the consoles to actually, you know, be released before we know if its magic SSD does a fuckin thing. call me crazy
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Aug 29, 2020 23:12
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Look man if this thread can't predict with perfect accuracy which of the two things getting released next quarter are going to be better than the other what is it even for???
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Aug 30, 2020 00:52
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Cygni posted:probably need the consoles to actually, you know, be released before we know if its magic SSD does a fuckin thing. call me crazy Also even if magic SSDs in consoles are really cool and important, the PC ports might do something completely different so that they work for people who don't have magic SSDs. You ain't gonna run Ratchet & Clank on your PC, no matter what hardware you put in it. Having a PCIe4 NVMe drive that keeps up with magic compressors means jack poo poo when the gamedev says "I want to sell more copies than the 200k people who bought an expensive whizbang SSD."
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Aug 30, 2020 01:02
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:That's an odd take Paul, perhaps the first time I've seen somebody eye the absence of loading screens with some measure of cynicism. I get what you mean a little (I can see games copying Ratchet and Clank's portals a lot) but switching between regions on the fly is a huge improvement to reading loading screen tips I guess what I'm saying is remember Zelda Oracle of Ages/Oracle of Seasons, where gameplay involved you going around and using time travel to "change seasons" and move to an alternate map where you could navigate a puzzle or get to an item/dungeon/area that was previously accessible? I just pessimistically foresee like a billion RPG games implementing this kind of mechanism over the coming year or two as studios realize they can swap all the assets and come up with dumb gameplay ways to showcase this. Getting rid of loading screens is great and I'm all for it, by all means give me awesome sprawling seamless open-world environments for flight sims/space sims/RPGs/whatever, but it's not really that entertaining a gameplay mechanism in itself. (sorry sony your exclusives will never compete with Titanfall 2 in this respect, after time-travel parkour it's all downhill from there) Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Aug 30, 2020 |
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Aug 30, 2020 01:54
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Paul MaudDib posted:I guess what I'm saying is remember Zelda Oracle of Ages/Oracle of Seasons, where gameplay involved you going around and using time travel to "change seasons" and move to an alternate map where you could navigate a puzzle or get to an item/dungeon/area that was previously accessible? I just pessimistically foresee like a billion RPG games implementing this kind of mechanism over the coming year or two as studios realize they can swap all the assets and come up with dumb gameplay ways to showcase this. those games owned so bring it on
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Aug 30, 2020 02:06
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NewFatMike posted:Look man if this thread can't predict with perfect accuracy which of the two things getting released next quarter are going to be better than the other what is it even for??? the righteous gloating over who was the least wrong
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Aug 30, 2020 03:12
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Cygni posted:probably need the consoles to actually, you know, be released before we know if its magic SSD does a fuckin thing. call me crazy we actually don't, since right now the consoles are all using spinning HDs and the xbox one literally doesnt even use sata 3 for the internal HD connection. no matter what theyre going to be faster- NVME magic or not
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Aug 30, 2020 03:13
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Some Goon posted:I can't say I recall that but it's also a pre-release build so maybe they'll tune it up before release. In terms of smoothness, the recently shown gameplay was already a very big improvement over the reveal footage. Klyith posted:(The PS5 likely has similar capabilities, this is stuff that AMD has done with their TrueAudio Next that uses GPU compute to imitate audio DSPs.) Tempest Engine?
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Aug 30, 2020 03:37
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