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Kalit posted:In your opinion, is "shouting down and scaring off" not an intimidation tactic? Totally an intimidation tactic. Doing so because someone's jewish is a hate crime. Doing it because they're an rear end in a top hat who supports a fascist apartheid state is not. Doing it near a jewish person is also not a hate crime. It's the *because* that matters. Like... not OK to punch Richard Spencer in the head because he's a white guy. Totally ok to do so because he's a Nazi. Basically this: VitalSigns posted:Sounded like he was saying that whether intimidating someone is good or bad depends on who they are and why you're doing it.
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Oct 26, 2023 15:10
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Oscar Wilde Bunch posted:Their stance isn’t we’ll accept the ‘67 borders with a permanent two state solution, it’s we’ll accept the ‘67 borders in exchange for a ten year truce as a proxy for recognizing Israel. As Israel are the ones who always break the truces and cease-fires how is this different from a permanent settlement from the Palestinian perspective if it remains in place? Neurolimal posted:A ten-year truce is effectively permanent. The odds of the Palestinian side wanting to continue the conflict after ten years of respected peace with a contiguous state is very low if not zero.
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Oct 26, 2023 15:11
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Charliegrs posted:Well those people probably can't work right now. And between that and the 300,000 soldiers called up I'm sure this is taking a pretty significant hit on their economy. Couple that with Israel's credit downgrade and likely recession: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2023/10/19/israel-recession-likely-as-war-drags-on-economist-says.html
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Oct 26, 2023 15:26
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Neurolimal posted:Hezbollah has explicitly been targeting border security; cameras, stationed merkava's, bases, soldiers, drones. If Gaza can target inner Israel then so could Hezbollah, but they're focused on deteriorating the border. I think you are massively overestimating the level of military power Hezbollah has available, and their capability to deter an invasion. To put it simply, soon with two carriers available, US air power will be able to turn any Hezbollah invasion into mincemeat in short order, liberating most of IDF to concentrate on Gaza. As for West Bank, there is a reason they armed militias and evacuated 200k people. Israeli disposition right now appears very clearly designed to be able to do a major ground offensive into Gaza, and no-one with any actual power to stop it seems to be interested to.
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Oct 26, 2023 15:33
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Why are they uh….gendering a settler apartheid colonial state? https://twitter.com/amyschumer/status/1717327976218399177
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Oct 26, 2023 15:33
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Bel Shazar posted:The article repeatedly says both 'jewish' and 'pro israel' and while it's a literal hate crime to intimidate people because they're jewish it seems perfectly reasonable to shout down and scare off pro-israel people, so I'm curious what the real story is. lovely reporting. CBS article quote:There were tense moments at the campus of Cooper Union in Manhattan on Wednesday afternoon. quote:Off camera, several pro-Palestinian students told CBS New York they planned to protest throughout the entire school and did not target or threaten the Jewish students in the library. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/newyork/news/cooper-union-pro-palestinian-rally-jewish-students-library/ Peace protest tried to get to the President's office got rerouted and held a rally outside the bldg. Some kids in the library in the library overreacted. This is just yet another attempt by Mister Fister posting sensationalist articles to create an image of something that does not exist.
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Oct 26, 2023 15:37
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BUUNNI posted:Why are they uh….gendering a settler apartheid colonial state? And she turned off comments like the coward she is quote:This is just yet another attempt by Mister Fister posting sensationalist articles to create an image of something that does not exist. Literally everything Mister Fister says is just some ridiculous article they've usually taken out of context completely, or just speculation about how unsafe Jewish people must feel (while Gazans die by the hundreds at least per day, and the US pledges support for genocide and people get fired for speaking out against the genocide, and a kid in Illinois got stabbed 26 time for being Palestinian descent). Kind of old. Nail Rat fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Oct 26, 2023 |
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Oct 26, 2023 15:44
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Tuna-Fish posted:I think you are massively overestimating the level of military power Hezbollah has available, and their capability to deter an invasion. To put it simply, soon with two carriers available, US air power will be able to turn any Hezbollah invasion into mincemeat in short order, liberating most of IDF to concentrate on Gaza. As for West Bank, there is a reason they armed militias and evacuated 200k people. the IDF doesn't need the US to destroy a large-scale conventional Hezbollah offensive which is why there's not going to be one
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Oct 26, 2023 15:54
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Tuna-Fish posted:I think you are massively overestimating the level of military power Hezbollah has available, and their capability to deter an invasion. To put it simply, soon with two carriers available, US air power will be able to turn any Hezbollah invasion into mincemeat in short order, liberating most of IDF to concentrate on Gaza. As for West Bank, there is a reason they armed militias and evacuated 200k people. Just because the carriers are present doesn't mean they are ready to deploy force in an organized and effective way at a moment's notice. In a lot of ways, this is the same framing as "Israel has the Iron Dome and an overwhelming advantage in the weapons available to them" on October 1st. I think it's reasonable to say that Israel isn't going to be existentially threatened by any of this, but it CAN be destabilized, and the initial attacks out of Gaza were largely only possible because the IDF was more worried about the West Bank - it's easy to see a way that shifting attention to the combination of Gaza and the West Bank makes their other borders weaker. People in the thread have already been talking about how their economic engine is being disrupted by the formation of those militias - how many weeks or months will they be able to keep that level of posture going? If things start going poorly for the IDF in the south, don't you think resources (particularly attention and planning resources from whoever is at the center) will start to be shifted away from the North? And separate from all of that, the long-displaced Palestinians in Egypt and such might be a wild card - being so indiscriminate about civilian casualties in Gaza has a real chance of pissing off enough Palestinian diaspora that new threats emerge either politically or militarily (not necessarily from any of the governments, but from a Hamas In Egypt kind of movement) Again, Israel has weathered multi-front wars on previous occasions, so it's not likely that they would lose on the ground, but when you consider what the typical quality of life for Israel is compared to Lebanon or Gaza it is easy to see how the public will for such a thing may not last for long - this isn't like the US sending people to die and kill off-screen on another continent, daily life is completely disrupted for like 10-15% of the population every day that this "high alert" goes on, and that is much harder to maintain now than it was pre-internet and pre-globalism. The last time Israel had to deal with a multi-front war was the 1970s, there's really no reason to believe that all the people born since that time are ready or willing to deal with that sort of thing. If nothing else, I'm sure some people will leave Israel and not come back, and people who were considering coming to Israel will change their minds. No one in the US or Europe has to seriously worry about the draft - that is not true in Israel, and that is a very good reason for people working for multinationals or with highly transferrable skills to consider relocation now. The idea that one nation could be an island of Western wealth concentration and capitalistic excess while surrounded on all sides by people who derive no benefits from it always seemed pretty tenuous to me - even if this current crisis resolves in Israel's favor I don't really think there will ever be a point where Israelis will be able to have real security without doing something to make things less miserable for their neighbors, and while Bibi had a surprisingly long streak I don't think the right wing for Israeli politics will be able to keep riding the tiger like that for another 20 years
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Oct 26, 2023 16:12
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Hezbollah is not going to invade. But if they fired all they had at Israel they migth do signicant damage. And missiles can sink ships... The problem IDF is having with preventing raids from Gaza is also a indication that they could have massive problems from Hezbollah.
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Oct 26, 2023 16:15
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Hamas' most grandiose goals (conquering the country of Israel and doing horrible things to all the Jews living there) are so many light years beyond their capability that it's a poor excuse to avoid doing the right thing (freeing Palestine).
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Oct 26, 2023 16:38
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BUUNNI posted:Why are they uh….gendering a settler apartheid colonial state? It is fairly common (but still weird imo) to gender nations and watercraft.
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Oct 26, 2023 16:52
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I think that a ground invasion of Gaza with the goal of permanently shrinking Palestinian territory is going to be a gruelling enough endeavour that Hezbollah has a decent shot at making it militarily nonviable for the IDF by piling on enough pressure to Israel's north and forcing them to split their forces. That's all they really need to do to claim strategic victory.
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Oct 26, 2023 16:56
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I'd say it's fairly common to refer to motherland/fatherland, but to refer to a warring country as 'she' seems very odd and a bit disturbing. Also, quote:and provide ample funds to protect innocent civilians in Gaza I guess they're going to use those protective bombs I've heard so much about.
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Oct 26, 2023 16:58
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TheRat posted:I'd say it's fairly common to refer to motherland/fatherland, but to refer to a warring country as 'she' seems very odd and a bit disturbing. Also, I can think of a number of instances in pop culture, from God Bless America to Ocelot talking about Russia in MGS2. Seems something that's dumb and old and should go away but I'll bet Amy Schumer isn't the only person who refers to countries this way
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Oct 26, 2023 17:04
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TheRat posted:I guess they're going to use those protective bombs I've heard so much about. Only way I could see the massive discrepancy in aid, on top of funding a country almost exclusively targeting civilians at this point, as adequate, would be if every dollar of the Palestine funds were used to provide anti-air.
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Oct 26, 2023 17:13
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Neurolimal posted:Only way I could see the massive discrepancy in aid, on top of funding a country almost exclusively targeting civilians at this point, as adequate, would be if every dollar of the Palestine funds were used to provide anti-air. No doubt we'll see a RUSI report about the importance of getting air defenses to Palestinians any day now
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Oct 26, 2023 17:17
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Ograbme posted:Hamas' most grandiose goals (conquering the country of Israel and doing horrible things to all the Jews living there) are so many light years beyond their capability that it's a poor excuse to avoid doing the right thing (freeing Palestine). Doesn't Taiwan still claim to rule all of mainland China. What a government says its maximal goals are, especially for internal political/propaganda reasons, and what it would actually be willing to accept in peace negotiations are two different things. A bunch of countries have territorial claims on others, it doesn't mean they can't be negotiated with or observe cease fires. South Korea and North Korea. The UK and Argentina. Croatia and Serbia. The UK and Spain. Taiwan and all the countries that the People's Republic of China relinquished its claims on. Denmark and Canada (before 2022). Etc. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Oct 26, 2023 |
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Oct 26, 2023 17:21
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 26, 2023 17:34
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Rigel posted:It is fairly common (but still weird imo) to gender nations and watercraft. I mean... Uncle Sam. And Columbia. e: Everybody forgets about poor Columbia. Uncle Sam is younger than her as a national symbol by almost a hundred years, depending on where exactly you draw the line. TLM3101 fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Oct 26, 2023 |
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Oct 26, 2023 17:37
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VitalSigns posted:Doesn't Taiwan still claim to rule all of mainland China. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China_Marine_Corps quote:
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Oct 26, 2023 17:51
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Ograbme posted:Hamas' most grandiose goals (conquering the country of Israel and doing horrible things to all the Jews living there) are so many light years beyond their capability that it's a poor excuse to avoid doing the right thing (freeing Palestine). Even the original, much more extreme 1988 Hamas charter states in Article 31: quote:Article 31 Describes Hamas as "a humanistic movement", which "takes care of human rights and is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the followers of other religions". "Under the wing of Islam", it is possible for Islam, Christianity and Judaism "to coexist in peace and quiet with each other" provided that members of other religions do not dispute the sovereignty of Islam in the region. Whereas the updated charter in 2017 where they back off quite a few Islamist goals and distance themselves from the Muslim Brotherhood states: quote:Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity. Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds. Hamas is of the view that the Jewish problem, anti-Semitism and the persecution of the Jews are phenomena fundamentally linked to European history and not to the history of the Arabs and the Muslims or to their heritage Unfortunately, you can not visit the Hamas site to pull the document in the US, but it was published here if anyone has access to journals. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/epdf/10.1525/jps.2017.46.4.100?needAccess=true In fact, in 2017 Hamas even accepted the 1967 borders as transitional https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/5/2/hamas-accepts-palestinian-state-with-1967-borders mannerup posted:if ethnic cleansing is actually their most grandiose goal, probably not a good thing to let them make progress towards that imo This is not their goal. Noise Complaint fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Oct 26, 2023 |
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Oct 26, 2023 17:52
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mannerup posted:if ethnic cleansing is actually their most grandiose goal, probably not a good thing to let them make progress towards that imo I agree that we shouldn't let Hamas conquer Israel. However, we should advocate for the creation of a free and independent sovereign Palestine, which would not in any way be a step toward ethnically cleansing Israel (unless Israel uses it as an excuse to start mass-deporting Palestinians with Israeli residency or even citizenship).
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Oct 26, 2023 17:53
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 26, 2023 17:57
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It's not a great sign when the only power that can reign in Israel at all straight up doesn't believe the number of Palestinians killed: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/biden-says-he-has-no-confidence-palestinian-death-count-2023-10-26/?utm_source=reddit.com quote:Biden says he has 'no confidence' in Palestinian death count
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Oct 26, 2023 18:07
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mannerup posted:if ethnic cleansing is actually their most grandiose goal, probably not a good thing to let them make progress towards that imo Hamas should be dealt with RIGHT after the occupation ends, or when the power differential shifts and Hamas gains the upper hand in personnel and equipment. Anything else just takes attention off of the primary problem right now... that being the current ethnic cleansing.
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Oct 26, 2023 18:17
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Hamas is the only government in the region that has successfully made progress against ethnic cleansing, as far as I'm aware.
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Oct 26, 2023 18:19
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I have no confidence in the figure either. It's based on confirmed deaths that this particular person is dead. You look at pictures of whole neighborhoods reduced to nothing, there are probably a lot more people dead under the rubble, who won't soon (if ever) get taken to a morgue or hospital to be added to the death count
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Oct 26, 2023 18:20
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HonorableTB posted:It's not a great sign when the only power that can reign in Israel at all straight up doesn't believe the number of Palestinians killed:
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Oct 26, 2023 18:26
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Yeah Gaza MoH is considered reliable to most aid organizations Buuuuut the US is aiding in an engaging in genocide denial now, cool
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Oct 26, 2023 18:28
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SuperTeeJay posted:With the IDF announcing dozens/scores/hundreds of strikes every day against 'targets' in a densely populated urban area, and assuming that any radar stations, armoured trains, blimps, etc., used by Hamas were all taken out on day one, it'd be extraordinary if there wasn't a huge civilian death toll. I don't believe it has been lower than hundreds and has gone as high as 4 figures of strikes a day.
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Oct 26, 2023 18:30
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Has Israel ever even questioned the death toll? Isn't their MO just to be like "yes, but they were standing near Hamas". outright denial seems particularly despicable.
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Oct 26, 2023 18:31
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It's for Biden's benefit, not Israel's. His approvals are taking a hit because it turns out that doing a genocide is not as popular with his actual voters as they assumed.
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Oct 26, 2023 18:48
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mannerup posted:if ethnic cleansing is actually their most grandiose goal, probably not a good thing to let them make progress towards that imo If Hamas' vowed to kill the moon, it's ok to allow Palestinians to have mountains even tough that brings Hamas closer to the moon.
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Oct 26, 2023 18:50
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I'm sure that taking out Hamas will be inconvenient for Israel. They will suffer casualties, their diplomatic standing will be damaged and their economy will take a hit (although the US is likely to have them covered there). This would explain why they have never launched a full-scale invasion of Gaza before. However, I really do not think that any of those costs are remotely high enough to deter Israel at this point. Within the country Hamas' attack is widely seen as an attempted second Holocaust. I do not think there is any cost that's high enough to convince the Israeli public or politicians that they can tolerate the architects of that massacre continuing to rule the Gaza strip (or indeed, continuing to be alive). And even if Hamas inflicts a heavy price on the IDF I do not think there is any credible scenario where they defeat the 360,000 soldiers Israel has gathered, nor any chance that other nations decide to directly intervene against the nuclear-armed state which has the full backing of the United States. Hamas cannot be saved, and frankly does not deserve saving. I think the best case scenario (which to be clear, still massively sucks) would be Israel being convinced/pressured into a plan that removes Hamas from power and takes out their leadership, but which allows civilians to flee - a ceasefire combined with a genuine opportunity for Gazans to evacuate to somewhere, rather than just being vaguely told to avoid half of the strip with no instruction of where to go or what route to take. This would still be an absolutely horrible outcome that could result in permanent displacement but it's still better than the current trajectory of the war, which is tens or hundreds of thousands of Gazan casualties.
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Oct 26, 2023 18:51
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Nail Rat posted:I have no confidence in the figure either. This is the craziest thing about Biden or anyone else questioning the totals - it is absolutely an undercount. Irony Be My Shield posted:I think the best case scenario (which to be clear, still massively sucks) would be Israel being convinced/pressured into a plan that removes Hamas from power and takes out their leadership, but which allows civilians to flee - a ceasefire combined with a genuine opportunity for Gazans to evacuate to somewhere, rather than just being vaguely told to avoid half of the strip with no instruction of where to go or what route to take. This would still be an absolutely horrible outcome that could result in permanent displacement but it's still better than the current trajectory of the war, which is tens or hundreds of thousands of Gazan casualties. Where. Israel will not destroy Hamas they will not eliminate its leadership this will not occur. This is a fantasy.
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Oct 26, 2023 18:52
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I think the best case scenario (which to be clear, still massively sucks) would be Israel being convinced/pressured into a plan that removes Hamas from power and takes out their leadership, but which allows civilians to flee - a ceasefire combined with a genuine opportunity for Gazans to evacuate to somewhere, rather than just being vaguely told to avoid half of the strip with no instruction of where to go or what route to take. This would still be an absolutely horrible outcome that could result in permanent displacement but it's still better than the current trajectory of the war, which is tens or hundreds of thousands of Gazan casualties. even if you kill every single hamas member, you're just gonna end up with the same issue in a couple years, so long as Gazans continue to live in these conditions it really feels like some people have learned nothing from the war on terror and just wanna keep making the same mistakes
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Oct 26, 2023 18:54
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Irony Be My Shield posted:
Hamas' political leadership is in Qatar, so it is impossible to take out the leadership by invading Gaza.
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Oct 26, 2023 18:56
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That is true - I assume Israel has some kind of Nazi-style long-term assassination program planned for them. But there are certainly military commanders who helped plan and organise the attack within Gaza.
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Oct 26, 2023 19:02
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Kinda tangentally related but whatever actually happened with that Mossad and Italian boat thing? Was it Italian, I forget.
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Oct 26, 2023 19:03
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