|
In Whedon's hands, the only female Avenger does get to outsmart the lord of lies, but she also gets to be a sexy-dangerous wet-dream who gets called a oval office in the process, and in another movie she angsts about being neutered as part of her romance with Banner. This characterization is more complex than a Madonna-Whore trope, but it's still weird. Honestly, I've never loved Natasha more than when, in Winter Soldier, she was a deadly, competent agent who texts with emoticons and makes stupid dad puns, and gets annoyingly invasive with her coworkers, and wears a lot of comfortable hoodies. And who gets to have complex feelings about Nick Fury as a father figure. She can be a loving weirdo with a layered history that eschews a lot of Sexy Spy stereotypes, and is more interesting for it.
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2017 09:59
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 22:39 |
|
|
Can't believe George Lucas loved the Confederacy all along!
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2017 14:03
|
|
|
Endless Mike posted:Can't believe George Lucas loved the Confederacy all along! The rebels in Firefly are undeniably much more Confederate themed in both costuming, vernacular, and symbology.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2017 14:05
|
|
|
It's a little known fact that Robert E Lee was a Chinese speaking cowboy.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2017 14:07
|
|
|
Al Borland Corp. posted:The rebels in Firefly are undeniably much more Confederate themed in both costuming, vernacular, and symbology. Star Wars is more American War of Independence than American Civil War.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2017 14:26
|
|
|
Wheat Loaf posted:Star Wars is more American War of Independence than American Civil War.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2017 14:33
|
|
|
Crisco Kid posted:In Whedon's hands, the only female Avenger does get to outsmart the lord of lies, but she also gets to be a sexy-dangerous wet-dream who gets called a oval office in the process, and in another movie she angsts about being neutered as part of her romance with Banner. This characterization is more complex than a Madonna-Whore trope, but it's still weird.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2017 15:05
|
|
|
FlamingLiberal posted:Best thing about Winter Soldier was them not shoehorning in a romance between her and Cap It would only have detracted from the Cap/Bucky romance. I maintain that Civil War is about the messiest love triangle yet filmed.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2017 15:10
|
|
|
Two things stick out in my mind about Black Widow in Avengers. The already mentioned interrogation where she's called "a mewling quim" by the villain just before outsmarting him, and the following scene where she barely survives a run in with the Hulk. The former would be bad-rear end if not for the weird insult, which is completely out of place in a superhero movie marketed to children. The latter was problematic, as it simultaneously built up how dangerous a male character was at the expense of the only female character, and unintentionally brought to mind domestic abuse made worse by the sequels pairing of them romantically. Speaking of the sequel, the romance largely failed because it more or less sprung up out of nowhere. Suddenly, Widow is the Hulk's handler, practically singing lullaby's to him, and then later flirting with Banner at the bar. And while I can agree part of the "I'm a monster" was supposed to center on her upbringing as a weapon, it seems the writers didn't trust the audience to relate enough to this to properly compare her to the Hulk. So, instead of showing her past and the terrible things she's done, which would take up to much screen time in an already bloated movie, they use the shock of her being barren as a cheap shortcut, inadvertently comparing childless women to a violent, rage monster.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2017 15:28
|
|
|
Al Borland Corp. posted:I mean he had an Avengers movie where the only girl Avenger's major scene was the villain calling her a oval office, then a sequel where the same character confessed she was a monster because she was sterile. The Prima Nocta joke bothered me more than either of those.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2017 15:31
|
|
|
glitchwraith posted:Two things stick out in my mind about Black Widow in Avengers. The already mentioned interrogation where she's called "a mewling quim" by the villain just before outsmarting him, and the following scene where she barely survives a run in with the Hulk. The former would be bad-rear end if not for the weird insult, which is completely out of place in a superhero movie marketed to children. The latter was problematic, as it simultaneously built up how dangerous a male character was at the expense of the only female character, and unintentionally brought to mind domestic abuse made worse by the sequels pairing of them romantically. Speaking of the sequel, the romance largely failed because it more or less sprung up out of nowhere. Suddenly, Widow is the Hulk's handler, practically singing lullaby's to him, and then later flirting with Banner at the bar. And while I can agree part of the "I'm a monster" was supposed to center on her upbringing as a weapon, it seems the writers didn't trust the audience to relate enough to this to properly compare her to the Hulk. So, instead of showing her past and the terrible things she's done, which would take up to much screen time in an already bloated movie, they use the shock of her being barren as a cheap shortcut, inadvertently comparing childless women to a violent, rage monster. There isn't a child in America who knows what "mewling quim" means. There are barely any adults.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2017 15:33
|
|
|
Hot Take: Whedon certainly seems to have been a lovely husband, but on a scale of 1 to Woody Allen/Roman Polanski, this is barely a blip regarding a Hollywood personality's treatment of women. It's not even a Johnny Depp. Doctor Spaceman posted:The Prima Nocta joke bothered me more than either of those. Wasn't that an RDJ ad lib?
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2017 15:35
|
|
|
zoux posted:There isn't a child in America who knows what "mewling quim" means. There are barely any adults. I'm not so much worried about kids being exposed to bad words as question the thought process that leads your only female lead being called a oval office in a pg-13 friendly manner. Sure, you can get away with it, but why is it necessary? It's not like Loki was hurling archaic personal attacks at any of the male Avengers.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2017 15:43
|
|
|
Gaz-L posted:Hot Take: Whedon certainly seems to have been a lovely husband, but on a scale of 1 to Woody Allen/Roman Polanski, this is barely a blip regarding a Hollywood personality's treatment of women. It's not even a Johnny Depp. None of those dudes have repeatedly been given lucrative speaking gigs about feminism, or have think pieces written about what great feminist leaders they are. Whedon does. The debate with Whedon is, should people probably stop acting like he's this great feminist who's single handedly going to end the patriarchy by writing an endless stream of quipping waifs beating dudes up, and the answer is Yeah
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2017 15:44
|
|
|
I'll never forget the university class I had where we were told to find and share a picture that we thought summed up "feminism" and briefly explain why, and one respondent came up with a photo of Joss Whedon. The tutor's response was... Well, I didn't know it was possible to roll your eyes in writing, but they found a way.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2017 15:52
|
|
|
I don't really view the "tricking Loki into giving away his plan" as all that impressive since his plan was already in effect and too late to stop. I'm sure she could get Ozymandias to tell her his plan, too.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2017 16:11
|
|
|
Al Borland Corp. posted:I don't really view the "tricking Loki into giving away his plan" as all that impressive since his plan was already in effect and too late to stop. I'm sure she could get Ozymandias to tell her his plan, too. Fair point. It came off bad rear end in the moment, but in the long run didn't really make a difference.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2017 16:55
|
|
|
I remember the Black Widow scenes where Coulson calls her in the middle of what's become a reverse interrogation, the part where she hops off Cap's shield to hijack one of the alien flying machines, and the Budapest banter. I completely overlooked "mewling quim" because I had no idea what the gently caress it meant and I really don't believe in being retroactively offended. Same for Prima Nocta, honestly. Once again, being a lovely husband doesn't mean you cannot also be a feminist. If my girlfriend cheated on me, I wouldn't call her a racist.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2017 17:13
|
|
|
it's not just the cheating.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2017 17:19
|
|
|
I like when BW made the wargames joke in Cap 2 or 3 because Cap shuts her down and she comes off as a huge dork.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2017 18:44
|
|
|
Jamesman posted:Yeah, but I think he's saying that it's her only claim to fame in that movie. Her big scene was being called bad names by the villain. Which I guess you can make an argument for? But that isn't her only thing. But her stuff in the movie is being called a oval office, barely surviving being killed by the hulk, then her part in the final battle; 2/3 things in the movie are not really that positive. Widow is way better in Winter Soldier and Civil War. Even Iron Man 2 treats her better.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2017 20:56
|
|
|
Only thing I ever knew about Widow was from the DD comic way back and I remember liking her more than Elektra at least.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2017 21:03
|
|
|
twistedmentat posted:being called a oval office This is so weird. If someone calls you a pussy, would you say they called you a oval office if you retold the story?
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2017 22:21
|
|
|
maybe not use a gendered insult
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2017 22:25
|
|
|
The British are coming (to tell us oval office isn't that bad)
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2017 22:29
|
|
|
Dragonshirt posted:This is so weird. If someone calls you a pussy, would you say they called you a oval office if you retold the story? Within context of the scene, Loki is clearly insulting her for being a woman. He might as well be calling her a stupid bitch.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2017 22:45
|
|
|
twistedmentat posted:Within context of the scene, Loki is clearly insulting her for being a woman. He might as well be calling her a stupid bitch. He literally called her a crying pussy, right? "Mewling quim"? Maybe I'm remembering it wrong.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2017 23:04
|
|
|
I feel like there's a slippery slope in treating depictions of sexism as actual sexism. I'm not Whedon's biggest fan right now, but he's not the one and only writer who's ever had a villain -- or even a protagonist, in lots of cases -- say lovely sexist things.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2017 23:17
|
|
|
Dragonshirt posted:He literally called her a crying pussy, right? "Mewling quim"? Maybe I'm remembering it wrong. http://www.chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2015/03/12/mewling-quim/ Apparently it would be closer in tone to "whining oval office"
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2017 23:20
|
|
|
In movies no one asked for news, WB is trying to do a Joker origin now w/Todd Philips (Hangover, Old School) directing. http://variety.com/2017/film/news/joker-origin-film-todd-phillips-1202536083/
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2017 00:01
|
|
|
fruit on the bottom posted:http://www.chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2015/03/12/mewling-quim/ Yea. oval office is more a insult for women (unless you're addressing a musician from Manchester), while Pussy is more aimed at men. And yea I can see how having your villains be casually sexist or racist or any other kind of bigot is unnecessary in a lot of cases, especially it being Loki. He already wants to kill everyone, having him be a doucehbag doesn't add anything to his character. It would have been more in character if he had attacked her for just being a squishy, weak human, a bug under his Godlike boots. Maybe they felt it was repeating the "does an ant have an argument with a boot?" and wanted to avoid it? God dammit, even those Joker fans I really hate would agree with me that one of the things that makes the Joker great is he is a complete cypher.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2017 00:13
|
|
|
Distribute it like Clue but instead of different endings it's different 3/4 of the movie.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2017 00:15
|
|
|
RevKrule posted:In movies no one asked for news, WB is trying to do a Joker origin now w/Todd Philips (Hangover, Old School) directing.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2017 00:21
|
|
|
RevKrule posted:In movies no one asked for news, WB is trying to do a Joker origin now w/Todd Philips (Hangover, Old School) directing. Supposedly it isn't going to be connected to the DCU shared universe films and will be a stand alone thing.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2017 01:07
|
|
|
RevKrule posted:In movies no one asked for news, WB is trying to do a Joker origin now w/Todd Philips (Hangover, Old School) directing. Nope times infinity.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2017 01:09
|
|
|
Why do they keep going back to the Joker? It's both tired and tiring.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2017 01:47
|
|
|
Have even DC themselves attempted the Joker origin story?
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2017 01:53
|
|
hiddenriverninja posted:Why do they keep going back to the Joker? It's both tired and tiring. Movies with Joker in it make more money than movies without Joker in it, same with comic sales, and he consistently wins DC character popularity polls.
|
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2017 01:53
|
|
|
zoux posted:Have even DC themselves attempted the Joker origin story? The Killing Joke is probably the most famous example, but even within the context of that story he admits that he sometimes remembers it differently, and that if he absolutely must have a past, he would rather it be "multiple-choice".
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2017 02:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 22:39 |
|
|
zoux posted:Have even DC themselves attempted the Joker origin story? Pretty much the only universal constants in any piece of media is that The Joker was just a regular guy Then he had a REALLY bad day
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2017 02:24
|
|
