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yes i got the joke, i was agreeing in general with you
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Jul 31, 2017 22:00
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Concerned Citizen posted:thug lessons, several posts ago: actually chasing moderate republicans didn't work, they still voted republican I'm not saying they don't count, I'm saying that on balance Republicans voted for Trump in equal proportions (around 95% party loyalty) compared to what Romney got. Those who did flip Dem were offset by others. Oh, and the strategy depressed Democratic turnout so much that they lost the whole states.
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Jul 31, 2017 22:04
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Grimoire posted:Ya, basically. Sanders polled real well with blue wall/ upper midwest independents. Bernie would have eked a narrow win over Trump by holding on to west coast, NE and Midwest blue states.
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Jul 31, 2017 22:04
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You can't actually claim the Dems are "gaining among Republicans" when the numbers stay exactly the same. You don't get to claim credit for "winning Orange County" when you lose three Democratic strongholds and thereby lose the election. You're trying to pull a confidence trick on us and the only thing I'm confused about is whether you're doing it out of ignorance or malice.
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Jul 31, 2017 22:07
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60,000 words is like baby's first thinkpiece
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Jul 31, 2017 22:13
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The Little Kielbasa posted:So long as 37% off the electorate identifies as conservative while only 24% identifies as liberal, its going to be very hard for progressives to govern (and, no, that's not because tons of Americans are actually leftists who would never call themselves "liberal"). That's the number that needs to change. I don't think those labels really mean much at all. If 60% of the country supports single-payer healthcare I'm not really concerned whether they identify as liberal or not.
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Jul 31, 2017 22:17
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Thug Lessons posted:I'm not saying they don't count, I'm saying that on balance Republicans voted for Trump in equal proportions (around 95% party loyalty) compared to what Romney got. Those who did flip Dem were offset by others. Oh, and the strategy depressed Democratic turnout so much that they lost the whole states. gopers that flipped to clinton also stopped identifying as republican, so there wasn't an offset flip of obama republicans to trump republicans. there were almost no obama republicans in the first place, so that isn't really possible. in general, the overall number of republicans went down. hillary's strategy was a base+ strategy - pump turnout in urban areas (her rallies and field program were focused almost exclusively in those areas) and make trump so unacceptable in suburban america by highlighting his behavior of saying/doing really bad things that she wins enough votes to counter any potential trump surge among white working class. the end result was a triple whammy - young voters, particularly young voters of color, were so turned off after the primary that they had a lot of trouble bringing them back. she failed to move as many suburban gopers into her column as she had hoped. and the trump rural surge was much higher than anticipated. that all added up to a narrow loss. her main issue is that she did a good job of making trump look terrible, but did a terrible job of making herself a good alternative. the easiest solution to this problem is to do the one thing she refused to do in the first place - aggressively try to hold small town democrats in her column rather than cede them to trump.
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Jul 31, 2017 22:21
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Thug Lessons posted:I don't think those labels really mean much at all. If 60% of the country supports single-payer healthcare I'm not really concerned whether they identify as liberal or not. Also the only things that did well at state and city level were things like minimum wage increases & medical weed. Of course bad dems will try to argue that things like single payer aren't possible, very dishonest would rather have companies make big bucks than help people.
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Jul 31, 2017 22:21
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Please no jokes at Bernie Sanders he works very hard for the American people
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Jul 31, 2017 22:24
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Concerned Citizen posted:gopers that flipped to clinton also stopped identifying as republican, so there wasn't an offset flip of obama republicans to trump republicans. there were almost no obama republicans in the first place, so that isn't really possible. in general, the overall number of republicans went down. This is a lot of words to say "No I'm not going to acknowledge I'm wrong and my solution to losing catastrophically is to tell you it'll be different next time."
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Jul 31, 2017 22:24
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"This 2-party system sucks; we need to change the system." 'Ok, let's form a third party with good and popular policies.' "No! We can't do that! The system won't let us! We need to take over the Democrats first!"
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Jul 31, 2017 22:26
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Thug Lessons posted:This is a lot of words to say "No I'm not going to acknowledge I'm wrong and my solution to losing catastrophically is to tell you it'll be different next time." you're honestly a better poster than this. if your argument depends on a mythical pile of obama-voting republicans, you're wrong.
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Jul 31, 2017 22:26
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Concerned Citizen posted:you're honestly a better poster than this. if your argument depends on a mythical pile of obama-voting republicans, you're wrong. 🤔🤔🤔
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Jul 31, 2017 22:28
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The constant outrage I see against Democrats for being dumb/selfish/conniving is both boring and validating. At this point, what do any of you progressive/leftist Democrats expect?
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Jul 31, 2017 22:30
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Concerned Citizen posted:mythical pile of obama-voting republicans mods, new subtitle?
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Jul 31, 2017 22:31
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Concerned Citizen posted:first i think it's pretty clear that those conservative candidates in 2006 and 2008 allowed us to pass some good legislation that would be unthinkable with a gop majority, so i do reject the idea that there is no difference between the democrats and republicans in those seats. there's a big difference - sure, gov. john bel edwards is a tremendous dickhead who is perpetuates police abuse/violence & is vehemently anti-choice, but he also saved thousands of lives by unilaterally expanding medicaid over the objections of the gop legislature. in the short term, we need those votes to get a working majority in the house. persuading right-leaning areas to be more progressive sounds great. it's a whole lot better than what you're actually defending, which is writing off those areas as permanently conservative and running conservatives there while pretending it's the only way those districts could possibly be won the thing is, the reason progressive initiatives fail isn't because support for them is weak. it's because the Dems put a lot more importance on industry's opinion than voters' opinions. single-payer didn't die because support was too weak to overcome opposition, it died because the Dems were terrified that a torrent of health industry money might get poured into GOP campaign coffers and anti-Dem ads. with a lot more money against it than for it, the Dems opted against, because they overemphasize the importance of money in politics. there's very little wealthy industry lobbying for progressive policies, and since the Dems believe that money matters more than message or popular appeal, that means they dump progressivism every time. they may appeal to popular progressive policies during the election, but all the while privately reminding the wealthy donor gatherings that it's all just talk
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Jul 31, 2017 22:35
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Higgy posted:lol ok gotcha prove me wrong
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Jul 31, 2017 22:35
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underappreciated sea change in PA's political economy since 2010 btw
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Jul 31, 2017 22:38
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Hillary had a massive dip in turn out. It wasn't Obama voting Republicans it was Obama voting "non-voters" who are a waste of time to go after let's try to poach entrenched demographics
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Jul 31, 2017 22:41
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"In order to pass a Medicare-for-all, single payer system we will be taking on the most powerful special interests in the country: Wall Street, the insurance companies, the drug companies, the corporate media, the Republican Party and the establishment wing of the Democratic Party. In opposition to our efforts there will be a never-ending barrage of TV ads, editorials, political attacks and lies." bernie was kind of hedging being nice to dems but yeah ok i love u bernoman
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Jul 31, 2017 22:42
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https://twitter.com/historyinflicks/status/892076415520264192
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Jul 31, 2017 22:42
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SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:Hillary had a massive dip in turn out. It wasn't Obama voting Republicans it was Obama voting "non-voters" who are a waste of time to go after let's try to poach entrenched demographics over half the populace didn't vote obviously those are all republicans that are turned off by how racist republicans are so we need to adopt pro-life planks
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Jul 31, 2017 22:42
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Subjunctivitis posted:The constant outrage I see against Democrats for being dumb/selfish/conniving is both boring and validating. At this point, what do any of you progressive/leftist Democrats expect? Every new generation of social democrats looks at the radical/ized left, looks at the democrats, and thinks they're the first generation to try this genius, new, untested strategy called entryism
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Jul 31, 2017 22:43
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Main Paineframe posted:persuading right-leaning areas to be more progressive sounds great. it's a whole lot better than what you're actually defending, which is writing off those areas as permanently conservative and running conservatives there while pretending it's the only way those districts could possibly be won well there's short term and long term strategy. in the short term it's just imperative that we take back the majority. a gop congress and a gop president are going to kill a lot of people, but if winning 3 seats in orange county with centrists is necessary in 2018 to take back the house, i'm all for it. in the longer term, there needs to be a sustained focus on moving these districts left by organizing more effectively. like we do a lot of work to promote candidates but virtually no work to promote policies. that really needs to change! quote:the thing is, the reason progressive initiatives fail isn't because support for them is weak. it's because the Dems put a lot more importance on industry's opinion than voters' opinions. single-payer didn't die because support was too weak to overcome opposition, it died because the Dems were terrified that a torrent of health industry money might get poured into GOP campaign coffers and anti-Dem ads. with a lot more money against it than for it, the Dems opted against, because they overemphasize the importance of money in politics. there's very little wealthy industry lobbying for progressive policies, and since the Dems believe that money matters more than message or popular appeal, that means they dump progressivism every time. they may appeal to popular progressive policies during the election, but all the while privately reminding the wealthy donor gatherings that it's all just talk but the support is weak. single-payer support isn't really as strong as people itt think it is. like in the last pew poll, only 52% of democrats backed single-payer. 33% of people overall regardless of party. so there's still a lot of work to do to actually build consensus on this. i think obviously campaign donations and whatnot do move politicians to an extent, but it's not what is killing single-payer's chances. and that's the thing - there's so much assumption that everyone is for it among progressives, that the democrats/wealthy lobbyists are the only thing holding us back, when in reality the main thing is there is a lot more electoral pressure against it than for it right now. there isn't electoral cover for people to come out for this except in safe districts. i kind of contrast this to same sex marriage - there was an organized outreach program nationwide by lgbt groups to increase support for same sex marriage. door-to-door visits by actual gay people talking about their experiences and asking for support. these didn't just focus on democratic areas, but broadly targeted voters all over the place. the growth in support for same sex marriage happened rapidly and lead to a big political breakthrough. there is a lot of potential for similar types of campaigns by proponents of single-payer, but it is not happening. it needs to, though. Concerned Citizen has issued a correction as of 22:51 on Jul 31, 2017 |
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Jul 31, 2017 22:48
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This delegate, Bernie, it's subpar
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Jul 31, 2017 22:49
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Thug Lessons posted:I don't think those labels really mean much at all. If 60% of the country supports single-payer healthcare I'm not really concerned whether they identify as liberal or not. So the portion of that 60% that's going to vote GOP in every election until the day they die doesn't matter to you?
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Jul 31, 2017 22:52
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got any sevens posted:prove me wrong why? you're not wrong its just that I struggled to write more words than "duh"
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Jul 31, 2017 22:52
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Yeah cc we need to win sooner not later. That's why we need to abandon the losing strategy of centrism instead of digging our heels on economic issues
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Jul 31, 2017 22:53
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purity tests are stupid to both the ones administering it and the ones getting it too busy administering the test instead of taking collective action, ya just tear into their policies instead of enacting yer own to outlast theirs
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Jul 31, 2017 22:54
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SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:Hillary had a massive dip in turn out. It wasn't Obama voting Republicans it was Obama voting "non-voters" who are a waste of time to go after let's try to poach entrenched demographics hillary did not have a massive dip in turnout. turnout in philly dropped 2 points from 2012 to 2016 - bad, yes, not really the big issue. the "entrenched demos" were people who voted democrat for decades and flipped bigly to trump in november. we didn't protect what we already had. Concerned Citizen has issued a correction as of 23:01 on Jul 31, 2017 |
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Jul 31, 2017 22:56
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Jul 31, 2017 22:59
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Jul 31, 2017 23:00
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Let me tell you that if you think engaging non-voters is a waste of time you deserve to lose forever oh wait that's just the democrats
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Jul 31, 2017 23:01
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Concerned Citizen posted:deductibles & premiums will go down when hospitals charge a few hundred dollars to fix a broken leg instead of thousands of dollars, or when cancer-treatment drugs are $1000 per month instead of $100,000 per month. you look at a case like iowa, where the entire individual market blew up because a super-sick patient with a very rare disease costing $1 million per month to treat singlehandedly made the entire market unprofitable. why do you think this is, CC, and what would you propose to solve this problem
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Jul 31, 2017 23:01
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Concerned Citizen posted:Concerned Citizen hosed around with this message at Jul 31, 2017 around 17:01 lmebo
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Jul 31, 2017 23:02
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Jul 31, 2017 23:03
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ex post facho posted:why do you think this is, CC, and what would you propose to solve this problem https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hHXMbvivjU
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Jul 31, 2017 23:03
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owns
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Jul 31, 2017 23:05
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Concerned Citizen posted:hillary did not have a massive dip in turnout. turnout in philly dropped 2 points from 2012 to 2016 - bad, yes, not really the big issue. the "entrenched demos" were people who voted democrat for decades and flipped bigly to trump in november. we didn't protect what we already had. You're arguing my point.
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Jul 31, 2017 23:07
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SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:You're arguing my point.  
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Jul 31, 2017 23:09
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