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ApplesandOranges posted:It's funny because no matter what happened at F6, Wendell would still have won. He'd be immune at F5 and he probably wins fire even if Donathan or Sebastian were against him. Domenic suggested it might have been better for him to lose (throw) the F4 comp. Then he has to make fire against Angela. If he wins, she's mad at Wendell for putting her in that position, and he has another challenge victory, this time in front of the jury.
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May 27, 2018 00:05
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If he asked Jeff, I bet they would have let him make fire against Wendell.
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May 27, 2018 03:06
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i was mostly in the Wendell boat this game but Dom won me over in the end. either way it's not surprising at all that this was the first tie. definitely a good finale. the season itself wasn't too bad. ghost island was a hell of a pointless addition, though. shame, because seeing some of those old relics was cool and it would have been fun if something more interesting could have happened with them.
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May 27, 2018 04:47
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It's interesting that Survivor New Zealand has the "Outpost" twist, which is very similar to Ghost Island, but seems to work much better. Both tribes send someone to go to the "outpost" where there is a 1v1 challenge for an advantage in the game. Be it a clue to a HII or simply food for the winner (and only for the winner, not their tribe). Seems like a reasonable season, even though I guess they don't ask what high school the survivors went too, since they picked 2 guys that went to the same school and were even friends...
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May 27, 2018 07:51
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Brett and Luara from Samoa went to the same church in Oregon so it's definitely happened over here even though our population dwarfs NZ's. The world is just a small place sometimes. I lovethat twist though, it's like Tocantins Exile Island on speed. I might have to check it out.
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May 27, 2018 08:24
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The few weeks leading up to the finale were just bogged down by a bunch of strategically useless people. If Angela/Seabass were swapped out with Michael, Chris, Bradley, Stephenie or James it would have been pretty interesting. Heck you could have swapped out Jenna and Libby for cardboard lookalikes and I'd barely have noticed. Even then, I don't think there were any really boring weeks. The Chelsea vote was boring, but aside from that there was at least some strategy going on in every post-merge episode, even if it wasn't exciting.
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May 27, 2018 09:29
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I was rooting for Dom but yea man those like last four episodes were just a long drawn out Dom and Wendell show. At least Donathan tried the crazy route nobody gave even a little poo poo about trying to break them up.
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May 28, 2018 03:34
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SLICK GOKU BABY posted:It's interesting that Survivor New Zealand has the "Outpost" twist, which is very similar to Ghost Island, but seems to work much better. Both tribes send someone to go to the "outpost" where there is a 1v1 challenge for an advantage in the game. Be it a clue to a HII or simply food for the winner (and only for the winner, not their tribe). btw you guys can watch it here I think (not sure if it works outside of NZ) https://tvnz.co.nz/shows/survivor-new-zealand edit- 
.TakaM fucked around with this message at 08:21 on May 28, 2018 |
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May 28, 2018 03:47
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It doesn't.
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May 28, 2018 07:11
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I think Laurel did know she'd lose to Dom and Wendell, based on her many confessionals stating as much, but was just torn by sentiment, by being risk averse, and thinking herself into corners. Like, obviously if she flips at certain points (with Desiree, with Kellyn, at f7 or f6), her path forward gets less clear. She'd have to make something else happen subsequently. But that's no excuse for walking willingly into a meat grinder, which is basically what she did. Credit to Wendell though, she liked him enough that she was rationalizing things like how she couldn't vote him out after he ALMOST won immunity. Btw listened to the Rob C/Wigler final recap and was treated to the winning wandoff, a really superb Beauty and the Beast cover except themed around how online fans were being ignorant in second-guessing Laurel. I believe right when the voting closed, she was being seen walking into the most obvious FTC shutout of all time, so uh, lol. Plus armchair analysis is one of the reasons people watch, so the scolding was pretty holier than thou. STAC Goat posted:Eh, that's kind of "fallacy of the predetermine outcome" territory. We don't know if Sebastian or Donathan would have lost to Wendell with a firemaking challenge if they had ended up with him there. We don't know if Laurel wouldn't have beat him if Dom had chosen to put her in there. Hell, we don't know if Angela would have won if she hadn't switched seats because maybe a gust of wind would have gone differently or a piece of wood would have burnt better. Who knows? Fast Luck fucked around with this message at 23:46 on May 29, 2018 |
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May 29, 2018 23:44
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My attentiveness to the podcasts has depended on how long it took me to fall asleep any given night, but they were treating Laurel like a tragic Greek heroine. It made it difficult to take their opinions seriously. I know she's a fan of his but that's nothing special anymore. I can see how he's trying to be political and careful and it's certainly working, but the culty aspect is really turning me off. They had a similar meltdown when their Rob-fan candidate wasn't voted onto BB Canada this year. Also, the Wandoff is terrible.
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May 30, 2018 00:55
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God forbid a public figure give a person who he knows is probably listening the benefit of the doubt and treat them like a human being rather than an entertainment automaton to be beaten and scorned when it doesn't do what the crowd likes.
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May 30, 2018 04:17
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Spergatory posted:God forbid a public figure give a person who he knows is probably listening the benefit of the doubt and treat them like a human being rather than an entertainment automaton to be beaten and scorned when it doesn't do what the crowd likes.
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May 30, 2018 04:35
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Yeah Laurel should have have put all 5 votes of her votes on Dominick, and vote him out without all the other hangers-on and blabbermouths knowing. The quintuple blindside, a classic maneuver!
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May 30, 2018 04:53
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Spergatory posted:God forbid a public figure give a person who he knows is probably listening the benefit of the doubt and treat them like a human being rather than an entertainment automaton to be beaten and scorned when it doesn't do what the crowd likes. If he's going to try to sell analysis, something other than cheerleading would be nice.
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May 30, 2018 09:50
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Propaganda Machine posted:My attentiveness to the podcasts has depended on how long it took me to fall asleep any given night, but they were treating Laurel like a tragic Greek heroine. It made it difficult to take their opinions seriously. I know she's a fan of his but that's nothing special anymore. I can see how he's trying to be political and careful and it's certainly working, but the culty aspect is really turning me off. They had a similar meltdown when their Rob-fan candidate wasn't voted onto BB Canada this year. Should be called the Wank Off since it's mostly done for Wigler's own gratification. 
Binary Logic fucked around with this message at 11:14 on May 30, 2018 |
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May 30, 2018 11:12
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I'm guessing there's a significant overlap between people who hate the Wandoff, people who hate Chris Noble, and people who just hate fun in general.
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May 30, 2018 12:39
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Propaganda Machine posted:My attentiveness to the podcasts has depended on how long it took me to fall asleep any given night, but they were treating Laurel like a tragic Greek heroine. It made it difficult to take their opinions seriously. I know she's a fan of his but that's nothing special anymore. I can see how he's trying to be political and careful and it's certainly working, but the culty aspect is really turning me off. They had a similar meltdown when their Rob-fan candidate wasn't voted onto BB Canada this year. But yeah, that winning wandoff song was a community vote which basically amounted to RHAP fans scolding the rest of the online world for 100% correctly calling out Laurel's game. Definitely kind of culty. Or maybe fans just really liked the song v  vLol it wasn't that long ago you implied I was a conspiracy-addled loon for suggesting Rob was giving a listener and patron the benefit of the doubt, now you're empty quoting it.
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May 30, 2018 13:14
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Or maybe the people who voted for that song were doing it to counter the frankly ridiculous amount of vitriol being hurled at an actual human person for their performance on a reality game show.
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May 30, 2018 13:39
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Laurel is bad, but in fairness to Laurel, everyone else was much worse, which makes it kinda hard to shoot your shot. Angela's the bigger idiot IMO.
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May 30, 2018 14:20
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sportsgenius86 posted:Laurel is bad, but in fairness to Laurel, everyone else was much worse, which makes it kinda hard to shoot your shot. Angela's the bigger idiot IMO. I think that’s why Laurel gets so much poo poo. Everyone else was terrible in most respects and had no chance of winning. Laurel actually had a shot if she had tried to challenge Wendell and Dom, but instead accepted her place as bronze medal winner.
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May 30, 2018 14:24
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santanotreal posted:I think that’s why Laurel gets so much poo poo. Everyone else was terrible in most respects and had no chance of winning. Laurel actually had a shot if she had tried to challenge Wendell and Dom, but instead accepted her place as bronze medal winner. sure, but if no one is willing to leap with you except loose cannon Donathan, your options are to ride out third place or commit game suicide. By no means am I saying Laurel was a good player, but I also think she was between a rock and a hard place. I feel like the edit has some to do with this, as it seems Sebastian was tighter with Dom and Wendell than was conveyed on TV. I think Laurel was willing but everyone else was so flaky that all she'd do by taking the leap is gently caress herself, so I understand the predicament.
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May 30, 2018 14:35
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Exactly. Who did she have to work with? Sebastian, the walking personification of bong water? Angela, whose only game move is to report literally everything she hears to her commanding officer, whoever that may be? Kellyn, who voted for Laurel twice and had spent weeks wandering around the island muttering "Naviti Strong" while tying orange buffs to trees and trying to vote off the trees? Survivor, much as we love it, is a game that is often won and lost weeks before it's over. At a certain point, I think Laurel realized her ceiling was third place and just decided to go with it.
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May 30, 2018 14:56
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I dont want to say Laurel was "between a rock and a hard place" because to me that implies she didn't put herself there. And I do think Laurel deserves some slack for having no parachutes or plan B's beyond Dom and Wendell. I do think there was bad luck with the tribe swaps and the timing and usually sloppy execution of other people's revolts. But Laurel boxed herself in a way that Dom, Wendell, and even Donathan didn't seem to. But I think the online criticism is entirely over the top. At some point Laurel just became the focal point of fans expectations for a shakeup and that took on a life of it's own. The discussion stopped being about whether he reasoning made sense or if she even would have had the votes to do it and it just became fans watching each episode to see if she pulled the trigger. And people kind of lost perspective that she played arguably the third best game of the season. As backhanded a compliment that may be. Some of that was the narrative. Some of it is on Laurel for being so shaky about it for so long. But a lot of it was just the momentum of the fanbase narrative.
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May 30, 2018 15:18
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Fast Luck posted:Lol it wasn't that long ago you implied I was a conspiracy-addled loon for suggesting Rob was giving a listener and patron the benefit of the doubt, now you're empty quoting it.  What happened to you? You use to be a nice/sane guy.
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May 30, 2018 16:25
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sportsgenius86 posted:Laurel is bad, but in fairness to Laurel, everyone else was much worse, which makes it kinda hard to shoot your shot. Angela's the bigger idiot IMO. As for Laurel, if she knows she's 100% going to lose to Dom and Wendell, then I think she does have to go with flighty Donathan, with just voted against you Kellyn, with walking bong water Sebastian. It might not work out, but at least it's playing to win instead of playing for third. She also could have just not tipped off Dom about Desiree's plan and seen what happened. If it looked like it might work, she could have voted with Des against Kellyn, without voting against Dom and Wendell. With Kellyn and Des both flipped or gone, Dom and Wendell would have still been there for her if she wanted them. Plenty of things she could have done. I don't think anyone deserves death threats or vile things said about them but I do think it's fair as viewers to second guess players because that's part of what makes the show so fun, analyzing everything post-episode, and it's fine to vent a little bit too. Fast Luck fucked around with this message at 16:57 on May 30, 2018 |
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May 30, 2018 16:27
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As I've said, I think for all the defenses and rationalizations I've offered about Laurel the reality is she should have made the move at F6. Maybe she was willing to and Angela, Sebastian, and Donathan screwed it up but she should have forced the issue and just taken her chance. It might have meant her finishing 5th instead of 3rd but it was worth the gamble. It was the only time I think the gamble WAS worth it for Laurel. I can only imagine that between Angela's leaking, Sebastian wussing out, and Donathan being Donathan she just decided that it was hopeless and she should keep playing good with Dom and Wendell and hope one of them can take the other out and she can pick up scraps. But F6 was the last and arguably only chance she had to take the game into her hands and she didn't seem to push it at all. And for that I'll say she played too passive. The rest? I can understand it.
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May 30, 2018 16:51
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The thing is, in my mind it was actually looking like 6 would be too late anyway, since Seb appeared locked in with the guys, and because the idol-play probability is going to be really high at that point for whichever guy doesn't win immunity. That opportunity presented itself because Seb proactively decided to turn, probably inspired by his extra vote that I don't think she knew about, and I think that was a huge stroke of luck for her. Then Angela and Dom diffused the whole thing and I don't frankly blame her too much for that. But while it's fine for her to be turning down those opportunities at previous TCs as too risky, if she has in her head a strong plan to take the guys out further down the line... knowing they both had idols, and knowing she needs both out to win? I think her letting it get to 6 already was definitively waiting too long on her end, and a blunder, meaning imo it would have been most correct to take one of those shots earlier in the game. Unless she was just playing straight up to maximize her $$ winnings, since 3rd pays out better than 6th.
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May 30, 2018 17:09
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I definitely agree that she screwed up by not having a plan of how to deal with Dom and Wendell. The only thing there is I think the way the game played out just made it impossible to do that. Dom experienced that same basic thing as he couldn't find an opening to take out Wendell and eventually more or less gave up on it until the fire. Like its great to plan things out, but Survivor doesn't work like that and you have to move with the game. I think there were 3 big things that screwed Laurel ever coming up with a plan. 1) Desi's move and Laurel's polarizing decision to out it blowing up so badly on her when Desi melted down. 2) That weird Split Tribe Double Eviction where 2 Malolo's went down easy and there was no real way to take a shot at Dom and Wendell. 3) Kellyn's severe paranoia and anti-Laurel stance that just seemed like it made it impossible for Laurel to even trust her enough to work together. Laurel, Donathan, and Kellyn SHOULD have gotten on the same page at F7 or 8 but it seemed obvious that they just couldn't. Some of the credit belongs to Dom and Wendell and their social games and playing interference there, I think, but ultimately I think Donathan and Kellyn were as paranoid and reckless as Laurel was pensive and conservative. It wasn't ideal and it wasn't something you'd plan out, but F6 is the place where the game organically created an opening for Laurel. And to that I end I criticize her for not pushing harder to make the most of it. Maybe she did and the edit didn't show it, but once Sebastian revealed the double vote and Donathan got onboard that should have been Laurel's lifeline to possibly winning the game.
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May 30, 2018 17:35
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Yeah, I agree with a decent amount of that. I give a lot of credit to Dom and Wendell. Wendell in the split TC; Rob's got a long interview with Kellyn out where she really breaks down how Wendell told Laurel she had to vote for Kellyn there, and at the same time told Kellyn to put her 2 votes on Laurel because Laurel was voting her, playing them off against each other when really Kellyn could have voted with Michael and taken Wendell out, or Laurel voting with Kellyn. And then Dom was just amazing at that F6 TC, apparently one of the reasons the jury got rubbed the wrong way was that he held up both his idols and told a mid-breakdown Donathan that he could choose which of the two idols he should play. But the reality is one of those idols was fake, so the real reason Dom did that of course was to, like a magician's act almost, let the mark inspect the deck and pick any card they want sort of thing to prove everything is legit. Anyway, with Dom there showing two idols, while they still obviously had to vote against him it's not shocking they backed out of it, especially considering none of them knew if the others were still staying with the plan. Even though Donathan stayed with it since he was fed up by then, apparently Laurel could tell Seb was gonna back down. And even if Laurel does stand up like you suggested, and tell Sebastian to vote Dom, then Dom could just play his real idol anyway... which is why Dom's play to blow up that TC was so strong, and also part of why the move had to come a bit earlier given the known idol situation. Iirc at the Desiree TC there were still 4 Malolos left, and if it had gone through, Donathan/Laurel would have been really well placed, with still some bonds with Dom and Wendell but also with Malolo numbers against Des/Chelsea/Angela. It was a good opportunity (though Angela ended up not having a vote, so it probably wouldn't have worked, but they didn't know that). The Chelsea vote out was I think the last "true" chance, maybe it would have put Laurel in a bad spot, but maybe things could have bounced around a bit in her favor if she swings it right. Every vote was lined up for it to happen there, but Donathan just couldn't sell Laurel on it. He admitted post-game, he wishes he would have just gone alone and tied the vote there 4-4. Anyway, i said it before the finale, and I'll say it again now, it was a good finish to the season and there's a lot of fun stuff to look back on and analyze. To me, the winner/finale weighs pretty heavily in how i judge a season. It totally redeemed the first rebooted Australian survivor season, it's what makes Cagayan a top season, and the final showdown between Dom and Wendell and the tie boosts this season from bottom 5 to somewhere in the 20s imo.
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May 30, 2018 17:50
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Yeah, I totally agree that a lot of this just goes back to how well Wendell and Dom played especially in the day to day social gaming and trust stuff we just never see until it really pays off like with the Laurel vs Kellyn vote or Angela ratting out Sebastian. I'm not actually super "mad" or down on many players this season because I think for whatever ends they were "dumb" that's actually less of a factor in how drat good Dom and Wendell were. That was the driving force in this season and its why I enjoyed it so much even though it was relatively predictable. I think part of my problem with the Laurel criticism back to the Desi move is that people seem to go on faith that the Malolos would have worked together and I just never got that sense. Laurel actually had really bad luck with the tribe swaps. First Tribe: Other Stephanie I Don't Remember, Jacob, Brendon, Stephanie I Do Remember, James, Libby, Jenna, Michael, Donathan Second Tribe: Donathan, Libby, James, Wendell, Domenick, Angela, Chris, Morgan Third Tribe: Wendell, Sebastian, Jenna, Chris So like... it makes sense why she felt so much loyalty to Wendell since she actually played with him the longest. Meanwhile she only know Micheal for a few days before the merge and she got reunited with Jenna late before the merge. I THINK she was also one of the people blindsided by Libby with the Morgan eviction. She probably should have a better relationship with Jenna in the big picture but she didn't have any real time to establish those Malolo bonds that people seemed to kind of take for granted. And the edit seemed to back that. Which is why I think Laurel just couldn't see making that Desi move. She would have been counting on 4 Malolo's she didn't really know sticking with her even though the Navatis would have had the numbers. She'd never even really been on a tribe with Desi, Kellyn, or Chelsea and had only met them a few days earlier. Again, big picture Laurel should have worked more to repair/build those relationships. But I think the tribe swaps and those 3 big events I named all kind of made that really really hard for her which is why she kept going back to the one guy she played most of the game with. That and I never believed Desi had that vote or convinced the Malolos that she had it. The fact that Desi revealed post eviction that she wasn't even planning to bring Chelsea and Angela in on it and there's no way I would have taken that gamble if I was Laurel.
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May 30, 2018 18:11
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hmm Laurel, Libby, and the other Malolos all voted together on that Morgan vote actually. and I think Desi did plan to include Angela, just not Chelsea. She (I think perhaps correctly) figured Chelsea was too tight with Kellyn to go along with it, but believed that once Kellyn was gone, Chelsea would be "hers" instead of Kellyn's. But she wanted to include Angela, so the vote would be Malolo 4 (Laurel/Donathan, plus Michael/Jenna) + Desiree/Angela (6) vs Chelsea/Kellyn/Dom/Wendell/Sebastian (5). Even if Angela had a vote, we've learned how unreliable she is, but I do think Des would have had a shot at getting her there. Afterall, they were together most of the game and were both left out of the Chris vote by Kellyn, with their votes stranded alone on Libby. Des definitely should have run it past Angela alone for approval before exposing the idea to a big group of 4, but she was confident she had Angela. aftermath of that had it worked would've been 4 Malolos, including Donathan and Laurel; plus both Domenick and Wendell, who would be free particles a bit but with ties to Laurel/Donathan and Chelsea; and Desiree/Angela/theoretical Chelsea. Fast Luck fucked around with this message at 18:37 on May 30, 2018 |
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May 30, 2018 18:35
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Zesty posted:
Zesty posted:You just see conspiracy wherever you go, huh? Fast Luck posted:Bryce: laurel is really just content to just take that third place finish you know what im saying? Zesty posted:Double down! and then the emptyquote after I post about the Wandoff, when the post you quoted was saying pretty much what i formulated in my post above there... Seems like my posts are just making you unrestrainably mad which ok, but im not being a nutty jerk here just for noticing. and instead of just sending a rolleyes or a psyduck at me, you could actually write longer replies outlining your exact issues with what i say and id enjoy the discussion. Like for example, if you think Rob's treatment of laurel's got nothing to do with her being a patron and fan hes very aware of (the content of the post you emptyquoted not withstanding), and a lot more to do with just being generous and kind to a person getting a lot of poo poo, then say so. and Id say hmm yeah maybe it's just that, or maybe it's a little bit of both, and it would be normal posting going on instead of dumb slap fighting between Survivor nerds. sound ok?
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May 30, 2018 18:48
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I thought Laurel was on the Dom side of that Morgan vote. My bad. The point is I think that Desi never had that plan together. She was trying to pull off a narrow vote with no margin for error without securing the votes. And Laurel had no experience with Desi so she had nothing built in to trust her. I think we gave Laurel slack because the rest of the Malolos went with it, but they were all desperate. Laurel had options none of them had (except Donathan but he correctly realized he was 4th in that alliance). Laurel would have been risking a very narrow coup blowing up and destroying her trust with Wendell and Dom all for the upside of having to basically start from scratch and build a new trusting alliance with Michael/Jenna, Desi/Chelsea/Sebastian/Angela, or repair the betrayal of Dom and Wendell. At that stage of the game knowing nothing else it really did make sense for Laurel to stick with the people she trusted with a ton more game to play, even if she worried about them as end game threats. She SHOULD have had more time to deal with that in theory. That's just not the way the game played out. I also think its theoretically possible Laurel didn't intend to blow the Desi plan up as much as give Dom and Wendell a heads up to burn an idol. That probably would have been the best case scenario for her. But that's just random speculation about what might have happened if Desi hadn't self destructed and had tried to keep it going.
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May 30, 2018 18:55
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STAC Goat posted:
It's give someone flack to mean to criticize someone. Cut someone some slack means to interpret their actions more generously, give them some leeway.
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May 30, 2018 19:05
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garthoneeye posted:It's give someone flack to mean to criticize someone. Yeah, I'm dumb and invert words like that a lot.
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May 30, 2018 19:28
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STAC Goat posted:I also think its theoretically possible Laurel didn't intend to blow the Desi plan up as much as give Dom and Wendell a heads up to burn an idol. That probably would have been the best case scenario for her. But that's just random speculation about what might have happened if Desi hadn't self destructed and had tried to keep it going.
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May 30, 2018 19:33
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At the end of the day, everyone shares blame for seeing Dom and Wendell become a thing so early and not doing anything about that immediately. Once they hit F7 or so, the only chance anyone really had was hoping to tag along and benefit from a bitter jury.
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May 30, 2018 20:26
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Fast Luck posted:Something like that could have been good, anything to burn one of those idols and weaken their standing a bit before numbers got too small. Of course they'd be the favorites to find the rehidden idol anyway. Yeah, its baseless speculation but its probably the best way that whole mess could have played. If Laurel could have found a way to tip them off but not stop the vote then it would have been good for her. But that not only would have demanded Kellyn not reject the idea and tell Desi but probably Desi getting the Angela/Chelsea votes. It probably would have been too sneaky for Laurel to try and vote with them and secretly tip off Dom/Wendell. But its all just noise.
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May 30, 2018 21:02
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Still stand by my idea that 20th-2nd place should all get the same amount of prize money. I got this philosophy from a tshirt.
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May 30, 2018 22:05
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