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The centered start menu looks neater and is easy to open on touch devices, left aligned looks better and is easier to access on desktop. Both options are good for their intended purpose. I like the new start menu as well, it integrates timeline instead of it being a separate function, and while I quite like live tiles aesthetically, if they aren't a permanent fixture on your desktop then you're only seeing them for like a second at a time, so they are somewhat redundant compared to regular tiles. There's also footage of 11 running on the Surface Go and holy poo poo, it actually runs properly! When you rotate the screen, it snaps cleanly and smoothly at a good pace instead of having a panic attack for several seconds. I think they might have actually made the Windows tablet experience not weird and terrible.
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Jun 16, 2021 11:29
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Doctor_Fruitbat posted:. I think they might have actually made the Windows tablet experience not weird and terrible. This only makes me fear they've buried the evil deep within instead of making it immediately repulsive I would absolutely love a windows tablet in a form factor and weight like an iPad It would be the coolest device I could own and I would like to overpay for it in a Microsoft store 
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Jun 16, 2021 11:39
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Doctor_Fruitbat posted:There's also footage of 11 running on the Surface Go and holy poo poo, it actually runs properly! When you rotate the screen, it snaps cleanly and smoothly at a good pace instead of having a panic attack for several seconds. I think they might have actually made the Windows tablet experience not weird and terrible. Oh hold me now I feel faint
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Jun 16, 2021 12:10
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Statutory Ape posted:I am glad we are getting further and further away from windows 7 so I can ruthlessly mock the people that lament it's demise even more I was installing Windows 7 when my wife was pregnant with child #2. He's now 11. Crazy how it moves.
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Jun 16, 2021 12:11
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CaptainSarcastic posted:Out of three Windows 10 installs I have currently 2 of them are just fine, and 1 is fine except it hates printers, like even the idea of printers is anathema to it. Trying to install a printer only results in false promises and tears. HP? Epson? It doesn't care, it laughs at the very concept of printing. This is my problem with 10. You are at its mercy, and troubleshooting can easily result in full reinstall because it's just easier and less time consuming. I once had an issue where my windows 10 install suddenly decided it no longer recognized any wireless network as a private network. All networks were now public, and it would die on the hill of protecting me by simply blocking all internet traffic on these public networks. Add in that settings are no longer together in one place and I have to hunt down where poo poo is just to customize, and I will say gently caress Windows 10 and Microsoft's insistence on trying to be like Apple and make Windows "an experience." Unfortunately I'm stuck on Windows because that's where the 3rd party support is.
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Jun 16, 2021 12:24
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I figured the News and Interests thing we got was a tease for their new OS. Not gonna lie, kinda shocked they went with Windows 11 and not calling it just w̧͚̼̒͛̊i̹̜̙͕̪̬͖͊̔ͯ̏͟n̜͖̻͖̗̩̯̲͒̊͡d̡̗̻̟͉̫̂̽ͫͥͅō̸̗̝͖̘̯w̢̺͔̓ͬs̷̜̫̟̼̱͗͐̒
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Jun 16, 2021 12:25
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Maybe I'm just an idiot who doesn't know anything about operating systems, but I really cannot fathom thinking that 1) Windows 10 is a "bad" OS as far as Windows goes, 2) Windows 8.1 is a "good" OS in comparison and 3) that a person with those opinions thinks Windows 11 is going to be good. I personally think that Windows 10 is the best client OS that Microsoft has released and it's not even close. Even if you don't agree, it very clearly follows the modern Microsoft approach to pretty much everything. Release a thing, iterate on it faster and worry less about breaking it, and be prepared to make fairly massive changes to it throughout its lifecycle. And the thing is, that's pretty much the modern approach to both software development specifically and project management in general. It's not going away and Windows 11 certainly isn't going to be much different.
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Jun 16, 2021 14:32
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I think 8.1 was only good compared to 8. They were all bad though, including 10, but at least 10 “works” I’m hoping I can keep on using the same windows key for 11 too!
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Jun 16, 2021 14:54
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Doctor_Fruitbat posted:The centered start menu looks neater and is easy to open on touch devices Doctor_Fruitbat posted:I like the new start menu as well, it integrates timeline instead of it being a separate function, and while I quite like live tiles aesthetically, if they aren't a permanent fixture on your desktop then you're only seeing them for like a second at a time, so they are somewhat redundant compared to regular tiles. Yeah, I quite liked live tiles in theory, but in practice they weren't all that great. First, if you're opening the start menu you're there to launch a program or do some task. You don't just idly open the start menu to see what's new. And second, I never found anything with a live tile that was particularly useful besides weather. Internet Explorer posted:Maybe I'm just an idiot who doesn't know anything about operating systems, but I really cannot fathom thinking that 1) Windows 10 is a "bad" OS as far as Windows goes, 2) Windows 8.1 is a "good" OS in comparison and 3) that a person with those opinions thinks Windows 11 is going to be good. I don't count 8.1 as a full version of windows, and MS really didn't either. 8.1 didn't get a full new support lifecycle, it was the service pack for 8. It got a new retail release and boxes and ads, but so did 98SE. That's why I think XP vista 7 8 10 is a good-bad pattern. Putting 8 and 8.1 into the same bucket, they still average to bad (because improving from terrible to tolerable still isn't "good").
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Jun 16, 2021 15:13
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I haven't had any issues with Windows 10 on my home computer. However, I had to tweak lots of settings and group policies to get to that state. I also waited awhile to upgrade to 10 which dodged a lot of bullets. The first several windows updates had some serious issues if you were unlucky. I don't know if I would call windows 10 good based on it allowing changes to make it less bad. I guess I would call it tolerable with vigilance.
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Jun 16, 2021 16:21
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I'm gonna install windows ME 
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Jun 16, 2021 16:51
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11 has some nice new sounds and animations. I'm looking the rounded corners too, though most windows don't have them. Some dialogue buttons are rounded too and look really good.
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Jun 16, 2021 17:38
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I don't miss it by any stretch but I thought 8.1 was a pretty viable OS
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Jun 16, 2021 18:27
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Windows 8.1 Update was the one that made things better not just 8.1
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Jun 16, 2021 19:30
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Statutory Ape posted:I don't miss it by any stretch but I thought 8.1 was a pretty viable OS I put “extended god-mode” on all of my PCs running Win10 and cannot live without it anymore. Makes a huge difference in tweaking bad design iterations to my personal bad design iterations. I also didn’t realize what Group Policy editor was for until my new computer came with Home instead of Pro. Thank God for LodgeNorth’s cheap Win10 Pro key I, for the first time since 3.11 to Win95, actually like my GUI for Windows.!
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Jun 16, 2021 19:39
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Statutory Ape posted:I don't miss it by any stretch but I thought 8.1 was a pretty viable OS The thing about 8.1 is that 10 got announced less than a year after it (and rumors / leaks were well earlier). It got almost no adoption besides people who were already on 8. So like, yes, 8.1 was fine. It still had a lot of doofus stuff from 8 like the terrible integration of metro apps into the standard windows systems, but hey if you didn't use any of the metro apps anyways that was ignorable. It fixed the start menu that make using 8 incredibly painful. The main thing is that almost nobody cared. Most people had stuck with 7 up until that point, 8.1 wasn't so amazing to cause anyone to upgrade by itself immediately. Then you saw 10 was coming and it wasn't worth paying for an upgrade when that was already in the chamber. And as soon as MS announced 10 they were lie, "ok we heard you, the tablet poo poo isn't going to get in front of being a desktop OS".
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Jun 16, 2021 20:08
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Don’t forget Win10 was a upgrade for free! It’s the only reason I switched from 7 at all in the first place.
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Jun 16, 2021 20:12
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Internet Explorer posted:I personally think that Windows 10 is the best client OS that Microsoft has released and it's not even close. Even if you don't agree, it very clearly follows the modern Microsoft approach to pretty much everything. Release a thing, iterate on it faster and worry less about breaking it, and be prepared to make fairly massive changes to it throughout its lifecycle. This is only true if you believe iteration is worth it for the sake of iteration. A lot of legacy things in Windows are highly superior to their modern counterparts and the modern design of Windows is focusing way more on form rather than function. It's absurd to me that to get Windows in a usable state, I more or less need a pro license because the only thing keeping me sane is GPO. I don't think Windows generally improves, at least in the 'OS experience'. It certainly has technical improvements like DX12, better and smarter hardware support, and general stability are all great, but it seems to regress in UX for a more advanced user with each update. I put Windows 11 on a box here and that trend continues. There is a focus on trying to make it Babby's First OS, where no one can get lost by featuring limited functionality, hiding more stuff behind more clicks, and generally providing enormous amounts of space for...everything. This is honestly all OK too - all I ask for is 'Advanced Mode' as a UI option, or at the very worst, expose all that functionality somewhere so I can at least fix it with my own software, but it does none of that. Windows refuses to meet me half way on anything and is all-in on an almost Apple-like simplicity at the cost of literally everything else. To that end, I think the argument that Windows 7 is the best client OS for a more skilled user holds water. It's past the days of shaky functionality of core systems like Windows Update, but before the days of the babbification of the UX (mostly). It represents the best parts of the Windows experience while escheweing the worst that was yet to come. Anyway, Windows 11 looks like a non-upgrade right now. More integration with the Microsoft Account (gross) and fewer knobs to turn to fix it's ever-growing list of UX problems are on display. A MS account isn't required and the control panel is still mostly intact. A quick glance at GPO shows that it features some of the key settings to make the OS tolerable, so even if I were somehow 'forced' into W11, it's not a massive departure from W10 except in that the default Start Menu is worse yet, and I don't think Open Shell is going to work on it yet. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
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Jun 16, 2021 21:00
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i feel like windows 10 requires a lot fewer reboots, and hard locks a lot less and in general does fewer bad things like that than other operating systems i can remember
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Jun 16, 2021 21:09
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Statutory Ape posted:i feel like windows 10 requires a lot fewer reboots, and hard locks a lot less and in general does fewer bad things like that than other operating systems i can remember Thats really only due to hardware drivers. Also a lot less manufactures exist anymore.
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Jun 16, 2021 21:11
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Windows becoming more and more Apple-like in terms of removing features and disallowing customization is such a frustrating process. Let me change the height of titlebars, let me set transparency, let me dim inactive windows. I spend a lot of my time on a desktop in Linux running KDE Plasma 5, and it's just a better experience than Windows or Mac OS X, in large part because I can make it look and behave how I want it to.
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Jun 16, 2021 21:30
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I tried it out on a system that was already on the current dev release of Win10. It seems to be that build with new UI elements. My WSL2 setup survived the upgrade, and all the WSL2 features from the dev branch seem to be available. My main gripes are with the taskbar: only being available on the main display, middle-clicking taskbar icons does not open a new instance of that app, and can't start task manager by right-clicking the taskbar. I hope these are fixed by release, otherwise the middle-click thing alone will probably keep me on Win10. I like the new visuals and sounds. The animations look a lot better on a high refresh rate display compared to Win10.
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Jun 16, 2021 21:39
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Hungry Computer posted:My main gripes are with the taskbar: only being available on the main display That has to be a bug - it would break so many multi-monitor workflows otherwise.
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Jun 16, 2021 21:43
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Internet Explorer posted:Maybe I'm just an idiot who doesn't know anything about operating systems, but I really cannot fathom thinking that 1) Windows 10 is a "bad" OS as far as Windows goes, 2) Windows 8.1 is a "good" OS in comparison and 3) that a person with those opinions thinks Windows 11 is going to be good. I never said 8.1 was good. I said it was ok. And that is all. Also, I hope 11 will be good by the time they release. But I wouldn't bet anything on it. Canine Blues Arooo posted:Ted Talk This pretty much sums up how I feel about the situation, minus having played with Windows 11.
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Jun 16, 2021 21:48
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Hungry Computer posted:
"But you can still right click, and then click on a pop-up menu and sometimes get the same functionality. Isn't that pretty much the same thing?" - someone at MS, probably.
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Jun 16, 2021 21:49
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MonkeyFit posted:This is my problem with 10. You are at its mercy, and troubleshooting can easily result in full reinstall because it's just easier and less time consuming. I have been doing reinstalls because they're easier and less time consuming since Windows 7. When you have your Windows installer on a fast USB drive and are installing to a SSD the actual install process takes literally single digit minutes from pressing the power button to being at a usable desktop. From there as long as the drivers and whatever software was on that machine aren't a total clusterfuck you're not looking at that much time. Compare that to the old days where I can recall multiple XP reinstalls that took me multiple days to complete between hard disks being slow, single core CPUs, not enough RAM, lovely software, XP's general suckage, and old Windows Update making current Windows Update look like a Linux package manager by comparison. I'd be willing to bet that if you picked one of my client computers at random and asked me to do a full reinstall on it, that I could reinstall the entire thing and have it ready to be used within an hour. Possibly a half hour for some clients that don't use much local software. Either way there's a good chance it'd take me longer to get in front of the computer than to reinstall it. If I know I can reinstall the thing in an hour or so, I'm not going to waste a lot of hours troubleshooting any one-off problems. If something's a recurring problem then of course I'll dig in and figure out what's up, but if one machine is just being weird 
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Jun 16, 2021 21:55
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redeyes posted:Thats really only due to hardware drivers. Also a lot less manufactures exist anymore. Pretty good point tbh
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Jun 16, 2021 22:01
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CaptainSarcastic posted:That has to be a bug - it would break so many multi-monitor workflows otherwise. Yeah, bug or unfinished is my guess. I managed to enable it on other displays in the registry but it doesn't work properly. No icons, completely blank except for a 2-line date/time instead of the new 3-line. I'm going to wait for the first public release before judging it too harshly. Watch this end up being a build they were planning to release as a public preview at the event next week  .
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Jun 16, 2021 22:17
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It is impressive how fast an install can go on a modern machine with a modern OS. Instead of downtime in hours it's downtime in minutes. Although I guess that also presumes having a decent Internet connection, too.
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Jun 16, 2021 22:19
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Statutory Ape posted:I am glad we are getting further and further away from windows 7 so I can ruthlessly mock the people that lament it's demise even more 10 is just fancy and faster 7. Skipped 8 entirely, didn't know anyone even used that version. I've literally never seen it on a computer. I vaguely remember it supposing to look like windows 10 with obnoxious colour squares. 10, despite the issues, seems like one of the Good Ones to me. I would be glad to stay on this with updates over time, and as a fairly basic user all of the 11 changes just seem like changes for the sake of saying something changed, even if that change is kind of worse. Canine Blues Arooo posted:Anyway, Windows 11 looks like a non-upgrade right now. More integration with the Microsoft Account (gross) and fewer knobs to turn to fix it's ever-growing list of UX problems are on display. A MS account isn't required and the control panel is still mostly intact. When installnig windows for my current machine, kind of thoughtlessly logged into my microsoft account and was so annoyed and confused why my user account was named "TunaWeiner." That was a handle I made ages ago for a friend's Xbox or some poo poo and guess still had for whatever errant xbox/ms things I needed to access. It was fine once I logged out and made a real normal account but it really bugged me to have this notion of logging into some company's web service just to beep boop on my own puter.
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Jun 16, 2021 23:58
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i wish the menu, search and task view buttons were left-aligned with programs being centered but im just glad microsoft finally does something modern with the taskbar
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Jun 17, 2021 00:03
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CaptainSarcastic posted:Windows becoming more and more Apple-like in terms of removing features and disallowing customization is such a frustrating process. Let me change the height of titlebars, let me set transparency, let me dim inactive windows. I spend a lot of my time on a desktop in Linux running KDE Plasma 5, and it's just a better experience than Windows or Mac OS X, in large part because I can make it look and behave how I want it to. I kinda think there's an overall corporate trend toward "appearance as brand" that causes big-rear end companies to restrict or actively block customization outside of things like changing wallpaper or picking a single color. No matter what wallpaper you choose, your desktop/phone/web app/whatever still needs to look like a Microsoft/Google/Apple product. But also I think it's incompetence, since Microsoft (and Apple too, I think I've read) can't even get applications to look or behave consistently, even in the tightly constricted customization model they have right now. Examples: dark mode, control panel, blurry news and weather app... If they actually wanted to support customization, they'd trip all over themselves loving it up.
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Jun 17, 2021 04:06
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I think that's actually a symptom of trying to control the appearance. All of their stuff is inconsistent because it's all done by different teams on different schedules who are all working toward a design document from a completely different team, whereas if it was just taken for granted that people would customise the UI to look like a green and red monstrosity then they'd make their stuff flexible rather than whatever the 'Windows' brand is at the time they have to finalise a build.
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Jun 17, 2021 04:32
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Apple generally has a pretty good track record of deciding ‘poo poo is going to be done like this now’ and people developing for the platform falling into line and making sure their stuff looks like it blends in. Microsoft very much doesn’t. Microsoft can’t even make all of windows look like it conforms to a standard set of design documents. I actually like the Apple way of doing things, I would have bought a Mac years ago were it not for video games. It doesn’t bother me at all that Microsoft wants to be more like Apple, the problem for me is that they absolutely suck at it.
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Jun 17, 2021 05:18
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The Lord Bude posted:I actually like the Apple way of doing things, I would have bought a Mac years ago were it not for video games. It doesn’t bother me at all that Microsoft wants to be more like Apple, the problem for me is that they absolutely suck at it. Counterpoint: Apple sucks. Being stuck with the dock and a unchangeable status bar at the top of the screen is atrocious design. Giving the user less and less control every iteration of their OS, and dumbing down settings to a painfully moronic level. is not a good thing Forcing their esthetics on everything is like personality-replacement, culty poo poo. I find Apple's approach in both Mac OS X and iOS to be unintuitive and generally user-unfriendly. Windows is still better, even if Microsoft keeps trying to make it worse.
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Jun 17, 2021 05:28
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i thought microsoft would be slowly phasing out live tiles and tablet mode but them removing those entirely in 11 is hilarious good poo poo satya
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Jun 17, 2021 07:28
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CaptainSarcastic posted:Counterpoint: Apple sucks. Being stuck with the dock and a unchangeable status bar at the top of the screen is atrocious design. Giving the user less and less control every iteration of their OS, and dumbing down settings to a painfully moronic level. is not a good thing Forcing their esthetics on everything is like personality-replacement, culty poo poo. I find Apple's approach in both Mac OS X and iOS to be unintuitive and generally user-unfriendly. Windows is still better, even if Microsoft keeps trying to make it worse. Preach -- For people that need their OS to look pretty as a primary feature, OSX is there. For people need to actually do something with their OS, that's traditionally Windows' domain. Truly, as long as Windows allows you to do things like override the Start Menu, do rich configuration with GPO and/or the registry, and generally have first-class access to all things Win32, the situation will be salvageable, but they are making it harder for what seems like very stupid reasons. Linux has always been tempting me, but Linux has it's own set of dumb things - regardless of DX12, Linux is signing up for a different set of problems, and at this moment, I think I'd still rather solve the problems on Windows rather than on Linux.
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Jun 17, 2021 19:34
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If I understand the current W10 situation, you can replace Explorer as the shell, there's just not much 3rd party software out there that's up to the task (Stardock yes, but their software costs too much, and still just amounts to tacking curtains onto base W10). There's not a lot of energy in the alternative shell scene that I've been able to see, compared to the 2000's. So extended customization is still possible in W10, there's just not a lot of brain-market for it. I used bb4win and bblean for nearly 20 years before moving from W7 to W10. I know that I could trawl through the blackbox4windows forum, find a semi-active build of some new iteration that might have most of the features of bblean, but  W10 is mostly sorta good enough. Having virtual desktops directly integrated is what pushed me over, I'd relied on those for years to extend tiny screen spaces. doctorfrog fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Jun 17, 2021 |
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Jun 17, 2021 19:56
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Well these days people don't know how to use file explorer, and don't know what a desktop pc is, nor how to turn it on... They just stare at the black display and keep turning the display on and off, wondering why it doesn't work. No wonder they keep dumbing poo poo down.
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Jun 17, 2021 20:39
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lol that 11 installs in VirtualBox faster than 10 installed on the actual machine VirtualBox is running on
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