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I said come in! posted:And Hamas released a few elderly people and women, and once they started talking about how hamas treated them well, Israel all of a sudden started pretended hostages no longer exist. You can consider anything the released prisoners say right now to be under duress. They've only released Israeli prisoners with family that they still have captive. Whenever those old ladies are talking you could basically imagine a gun pointed at their husbands heads and not be far off.
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Oct 29, 2023 06:58
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Lid posted:No it doesn't? My point was about that terms if a ceasefire would by default include the death of Hamas leaders and them falling on their swords. It has nothing to do with if ending Hamas will aid Palestinian freedom. You're talking about an entirely different topic. I mean, Israel can demand that. That is a thing they are capable of asking for. There is no reason for Hamas to accept it because I said come in! posted:There is no reality where Israel doesnt continue to collectively punish the Palestinians after hamas is gone. History has shown that Israel will continue to do this because they were doing it before hamas existed.
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Oct 29, 2023 07:02
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i fly airplanes posted:Not commiting war crimes would be a good start—they should release the hostages. That wasn't the question. What should Hamas and the people of Gaza do to secure their release? We can all make declarative statements about what they should not do; I am asking you to elaborate on statements like this one: i fly airplanes posted:Israel has been crystal clear about there being no negotiations of any sort until all hostages are released without condition. Hamas doesn't agree, and wants to use hostage diplomacy as a starting point. You are stating that the hostages are a sticking point preventing negotiations, thus implying that an alternate solution exists if there were no hostages. If they were to unconditionally release all the hostages, what would or could happen next? Do you see a return to the status quo as a win for Hamas?
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Oct 29, 2023 07:02
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Ratoslov posted:I mean, Israel can demand that. That is a thing they are capable of asking for. There is no reason for Hamas to accept it because Well i'm having trouble here because half the threads demanding Israel ceasesfire now, I'm trying to state the basic most minimal requirement for a ceasefire if its to exist, but then its "well no there will be no ceasefire because Israel wont honour it" so im getting some weird mixed messages here. For all the times the US tried to broach peace with Afghanistan they were unwavering on the head of Osama bin Laden and the other leadership of Al Qaeda, which is where Hamas is in both Israel and most of the rest of the world governments view - the conflation of Hamas = Palestine tends to ignore that nearly every denounciation of Israel's atrocities does include codemnation of Hamas attack and how they are due just punishment for that, its that Israel is conducting unjust retribution on innocents for Hamas attack on innocents.
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Oct 29, 2023 07:06
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Lid posted:Well i'm having trouble here because half the threads demanding Israel ceasesfire now, I'm trying to state the basic most minimal requirement for a ceasefire if its to exist, but then its "well no there will be no ceasefire because Israel wont honour it" so im getting some weird mixed messages here. For all the times the US tried to broach peace with Afghanistan they were unwavering on the head of Osama bin Laden and the other leadership of Al Qaeda, which is where Hamas is in both Israel and most of the rest of the world governments view - the conflation of Hamas = Palestine tends to ignore that nearly every denounciation of Israel's atrocities does include codemnation of Hamas attack and how they are due just punishment for that, its that Israel is conducting unjust retribution on innocents for Hamas attack on innocents. I think my issue with the hypothetical you presented is Israel would have to be interested in a ceasefire. If the question is "would the state of Israel condition negotiations on the death of Hamas leadership?" I just wonder why they would even ask that considering they seem perfectly content to achieve that goal with what they're doing now by bombing Gaza. To say it another way, even if Hamas offered their own heads up, I'm not certain the Israeli government would currently agree to a ceasefire, both for ideological (e.g. statements from government officials are not limited to the destruction of Hamas, increasing raids and condoning attacks on the West Bank, etc.) and practical reasons (Hamas is not the only player & it has dubious control over others like PIJ, no control over Hezbollah, etc.). Nancy fucked around with this message at 07:32 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 07:26
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:What else would you call the acceptance that the hostages have to die to protect Israel's pride than a death drive? No one can surely believe that the IDF can raid the tunnels, survive, and bring back the hostages alive. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEzi0SMCu5A&t=1723s It's a lose/lose situation though which is the point. For example, take the Beslan siege in Russia. The Riyad-us Saliheen Brigade of Martyrs took hostages and put the Russian government in a dilemma. If they gave in, they'd lose legitimacy. If they stormed the schools (which is what happened) and caused the death of hostages, then they'd lose legitimacy. There's no right answer, really, you're wrong either way.
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Oct 29, 2023 07:32
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i fly airplanes posted:Israel isn't using these 1200 Palestinians in jail as a negotiating piece. They're not 1200 hostages. https://apnews.com/article/israel-detention-jails-palestinians-west-bank-793a3b2a1ce8439d08756da8c63e5435 yes, Israel isnt holding Palestinians as bargaining pieces, it's just abducting them to be tortured and killed for completely secret reasons. it's wild how people keep making the nazi comparison right?
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Oct 29, 2023 07:32
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Lid posted:Well i'm having trouble here because half the threads demanding Israel ceasesfire now, I'm trying to state the basic most minimal requirement for a ceasefire if its to exist, but then its "well no there will be no ceasefire because Israel wont honour it" so im getting some weird mixed messages here. For all the times the US tried to broach peace with Afghanistan they were unwavering on the head of Osama bin Laden and the other leadership of Al Qaeda, which is where Hamas is in both Israel and most of the rest of the world governments view - the conflation of Hamas = Palestine tends to ignore that nearly every denounciation of Israel's atrocities does include codemnation of Hamas attack and how they are due just punishment for that, its that Israel is conducting unjust retribution on innocents for Hamas attack on innocents. You're literally just having difficulty with the concept of a ceasefire. A ceasefire isn't a surrender, it would be ridiculous to have a minimal requirement for a ceasefire be the deaths of the heads of the enemy government. Not that Israel mightn't make that their demand, but it's a ridiculous demand no one would ever accept.
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Oct 29, 2023 07:34
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:That wasn't the question. quote:If they were to unconditionally release all the hostages, what would or could happen next? Do you see a return to the status quo as a win for Hamas? I'm not sure if you're asking these questions in good faith here, it seems you're just trying to set up a 'gotcha' trap. People should not do war crimes, Hamas can start with releasing the hostages, and some here need to stop 'contextualizing' war crimes. There really is absolutely no excuse for these actions. IDF has been rightfully called out on the forced evacuation orders, indiscriminate bombings, etc.. but on the other side, some here have been litigating every little thing from 'beheaded babies' to the 'border location' of the rave. Neuroliminal literally blamed the music festival victims as "stupid 20 year old ravers" in this thread. It's frankly disgusting.
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Oct 29, 2023 07:35
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My interest in there being a ceasefire is all the posts, protests and otherwise demanding a ceasefire. People can argue til blue in the face no ceasefire is ever going to happen because this is vengeance not just war but I'm taking the requests of ceasefire at face value so trying to suggest the bare minimum of a hypothetical ceasefire. Then I get told my hypothetical is invalid because there won't be one. Like then what's the point if any of this posting or moral judgment if your position is Israel must ceasefire but Israel will never ceasefire, or the inverse Palestine must ceasefire but they will never ceasefire because they are fighting apartheid. What's the point of any of this posting if when I try to take a stated opinion at face value it just gets shut down despite it being the stated political position of numerous posters in this thread?
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Oct 29, 2023 07:37
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Lid posted:What's the point of any of this posting if when I try to take a stated opinion at face value it just gets shut down despite it being the stated political position of numerous posters in this thread?
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Oct 29, 2023 07:44
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Lid posted:My interest in there being a ceasefire is all the posts, protests and otherwise demanding a ceasefire. People can argue til blue in the face no ceasefire is ever going to happen because this is vengeance not just war but I'm taking the requests of ceasefire at face value so trying to suggest the bare minimum of a hypothetical ceasefire. Then I get told my hypothetical is invalid because there won't be one. Like then what's the point if any of this posting or moral judgment if your position is Israel must ceasefire but Israel will never ceasefire, or the inverse Palestine must ceasefire but they will never ceasefire because they are fighting apartheid. What's the point of any of this posting if when I try to take a stated opinion at face value it just gets shut down despite it being the stated political position of numerous posters in this thread? Calling for a ceasefire isn't calling for Israel to demand Hamas' heads. hth.
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Oct 29, 2023 07:44
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Calling for a ceasefire isn't calling for Israel to demand Hamas' heads. hth. Say a ceasefire does occur, that can't be the ending step to the calls. I'm assuming that you, and others, have demands following a ceasefire. Like ceasefire exist to allow for peace talks or status quo but the status quo is broken because no one will broker peace talks neutrally between Israel's Likud right wing government and Palestine's Hamas' right wing government after Octover 7th. It's not a fair jump to know that one orboth parties would try to assassinate each other the second they get a chance. So what is a ceasefire to accomplish beyond the bombs stopping for a few weeks or days more likely.
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Oct 29, 2023 07:49
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Lid posted:what is a ceasefire to accomplish beyond the bombs stopping for a few weeks or days more likely. this actually is a good thing to have happen imo probably a necessary precondition for anything else to improve even
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Oct 29, 2023 07:51
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Lid posted:Say a ceasefire does occur, that can't be the ending step to the calls. I'm assuming that you, and others, have demands following a ceasefire. Like ceasefire exist to allow for peace talks or status quo but the status quo is broken because no one will broker peace talks neutrally between Israel's Likud right wing government and Palestine's Hamas' right wing government after Octover 7th. It's not a fair jump to know that one orboth parties would try to assassinate each other the second they get a chance. So what is a ceasefire to accomplish beyond the bombs stopping for a few weeks or days more likely. punishedkissinger posted:this actually is a good thing to have happen imo Also that international aid can arrive and be distributed without being attacked averting the wasting deaths of 2 million+ people. Also, also to allow time for the full mobilisation of the forces of the resistance axes leading to the complete destruction of the Zionist entity and its illegal and brutal occupation of Palestine. WhiskeyWhiskers fucked around with this message at 07:59 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 07:54
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i fly airplanes posted:This framework to view the world is simply reductionist and elementary, especially when applied to a geopolitical conflict that has been existing for decades. But I am curious, how would you describe this view of the world from a democratically elected leader? https://x.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1718376269954371897?s=46 And what conclusions should we draw about that state as a result? Brucolac fucked around with this message at 11:44 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 07:58
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What if Israel agreed to a ceasefire but it required everyone in Hamas lay down in a line across the border of Gaza so that a giant blue and white monster truck can drive over them while pyrotechnics blast on both sides and also you can pay $100 to take a picture standing on the wheel of the monster truck and also you get to shake hands with Isaac Herzog? You're not getting the respect you want because it's a borderline fantasy theoretical. Hamas isn't going to lay down and die for Israel, especially not when their international relations are rapidly deteriorating, their economy is declining, and they've already failed one ground incursion. This is the ideal scenario for an irregular group; the occupiers draining their resources on fruitless attacks that make the people hate them more, eviscerating sympathy towards their cause while support for the irregular's cause continues to climb. You might as well posit a theoretical where Khamenei offers to receive the death penalty if America stops airstriking sheds every 6 months. This isn't even a "God bless Hamas I hope they win" statement; there's objectively no reason for them to accept such an offer. Would it be good in the short term for Gaza? Probably! And it would probably be pretty terrible in the long-term when Netanyahu decides he needs a ratings boost and starts a new campaign against a now-leaderless Gaza! Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 07:58
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Also that international aid can arrive and be distributed without being attacked averting the wasting deaths of 2 million+ people. This is a big reason why Israel will never accept ceasefire, because also once aid comes in, the whole world will start to see the exact horrific details that Israel has committed and will put even more pressure on to stop the fighting. All Israel has to combat this is their crocodile tears and hiding the truth through propaganda and communication blackouts.
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Oct 29, 2023 08:00
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punishedkissinger posted:this actually is a good thing to have happen imo I agree with you there, but your second line is the one I've been pushed back in "anything else to improve even". I'd like to think things could improve but when discussing this everyone's been saying it doesn't matter because Israel would never honour it anyway. I probably have been conflating ceasefire with peace talks but that's because I see one having to follow the other. And it's why I was saying that Israel would I guess only come to the table if Hamas surrendered and was replaced. It's not disputed Hamas planned the incursion on October 7th, it's not disputed that universally that was condemned, and I think that people calling it terrorism are being dickheads as it was a state-based actor leadership so it was closer to an act of war. But like other wars, and Israel will cite Nuremberg on this, the leadership will have to hang in surrender and it will receive little to no push back from relevant state actors because the idea of this Palestinan leadership serving this unscathed after what they planned and executed is impossible. WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Also that international aid can arrive and be distributed without being attacked averting the wasting deaths of 2 million+ people. And this is probably the most honest post so far - the demands for ceasefire aren't in pursuit of peace, they're explicitly to give time to mobilise an army to kill and conquer Israel. Like why would anyone agree to a ceasefire if the ceasefire proponents are advocating it not for just reasons but for "we need time to prepare". That's utterly bonkers. Lid fucked around with this message at 08:04 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 08:01
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Lid posted:I think that people calling it terrorism are being dickheads as it was a state-based actor leadership so it was closer to an act of war. Oh Gaza is a state now? thats news to me Israel has no good options. they can either choose a lot more deaths or no more deaths. imo they should choose the course of action that results in fewer deaths.
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Oct 29, 2023 08:03
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Lid posted:And this is probably the most honest post so far - the demands for ceasefire aren't in pursuit of peace, they're explicitly to give time to mobilise an army to kill and conquer Israel. Like why would anyone agree to a ceasefire if the ceasefire proponents are advocating it not for just reasons but for "we need time to prepare". That's utterly bonkers. This is literally the reason for 95% of ceasefires.
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Oct 29, 2023 08:06
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What I would like to see instead is for Israel to be removed from the U.N. the United States and the rest of the international community turn their backs on Israel, and commit to a total blockade of the country until they give up their decades long commitment to warcrimes.
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Oct 29, 2023 08:13
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punishedkissinger posted:Oh Gaza is a state now? thats news to me WhiskeyWhiskers posted:This is literally the reason for 95% of ceasefires. These two positions cannot coexist. Either Israel is choosing a position of fewer deaths or they're to allow for the killing and rearmament resting in the death of Israel which in itself is going to include monstrous amount of deaths. They are both not good options but it is pretty transparent why the calls are falling on deaf ears besides bloodlust as it's just bloodlust in the other direction.
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Oct 29, 2023 08:14
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i fly airplanes posted:Why are you conflating Hamas and the people of Gaza as one? I didn't intend to, beyond the part where they are both groups with members held captive by Israel. Perhaps "and/or" would have been a better phrasing i fly airplanes posted:How should I know? The way I see it, there are two angles to the discussion; moral and strategic. One can discuss the conditions that led to the Al-Aqsa Flood and what Hamas is hoping to achieve without condoning either. Morally, pretty much everything that has happened is completely indefensible, the rave massacre in particular. I am not going to argue that that was ever warranted. You seemed to be arguing from a strategic angle that taking civilian hostages was a mistake, because Israel was never going to negotiate for their release. I read that as implying that there existed a more viable alternative approach.
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Oct 29, 2023 08:14
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Lid posted:These two positions cannot coexist. Either Israel is choosing a position of fewer deaths or they're to allow for the killing and rearmament resting in the death of Israel which in itself is going to include monstrous amount of deaths. They are both not good options but it is pretty transparent why the calls are falling on deaf ears besides bloodlust as it's just bloodlust in the other direction. Israel is not going to choose a position of fewer deaths, they will agree to a ceasefire when they realise they can't achieve their military objectives and want time to prepare and reorganise. People globally are calling for a ceasefire as it will mean fewer deaths. The pressure of the people is hoped to make that first position more attractive for Israel, for the second position's ends. Those aren't in any way contradictory.
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Oct 29, 2023 08:17
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Lid posted:These two positions cannot coexist. Either Israel is choosing a position of fewer deaths or they're to allow for the killing and rearmament resting in the death of Israel which in itself is going to include monstrous amount of deaths. They are both not good options but it is pretty transparent why the calls are falling on deaf ears besides bloodlust as it's just bloodlust in the other direction. Gaza is a captive population held in prison by Israel. I dont believe they have the capacity to completely destroy the state, but if you think they do, then Israel should probably start negotiating
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Oct 29, 2023 08:21
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Lid posted:These two positions cannot coexist. Either Israel is choosing a position of fewer deaths or they're to allow for the killing and rearmament resting in the death of Israel which in itself is going to include monstrous amount of deaths. They are both not good options but it is pretty transparent why the calls are falling on deaf ears besides bloodlust as it's just bloodlust in the other direction. You've identified part of the practical issue with theory crafting a ceasefire. The Israeli government wouldn't agree to a ceasefire at this point; they aren't exhausted in terms of materiel or personnel, they're accepting of widespread collateral damage, the foreign government that matters is in support, and their current strategy of mass killing Palestinians to nominally get to Hamas is one the ruling Governmental faction & its allies likes. You might be interested in reading about the other ceasefires in the past, including 2021 https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/20/israel-and-hamas-annouce-gaza-ceasefire
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Oct 29, 2023 08:21
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I said come in! posted:What I would like to see instead is for Israel to be removed from the U.N. the United States and the rest of the international community turn their backs on Israel, and commit to a total blockade of the country until they give up their decades long commitment to warcrimes. Honestly agreed and the decades of propping up Israel by the US while thumbing their noses at the US was one of the most asinine ongoing political positions in international politics. Israel is a terrible US ally, alongside Saudi Arabia. And Hamas? WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Israel is not going to choose a position of fewer deaths, they will agree to a ceasefire when they realise they can't achieve their military objectives and want time to prepare and reorganise. People globally are calling for a ceasefire as it will mean fewer deaths. The pressure of the people is hoped to make that first position more attractive for Israel, for the second position's ends. Those aren't in any way contradictory. That's literally not what you posted WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Also that international aid can arrive and be distributed without being attacked averting the wasting deaths of 2 million+ people. You've now changed it to the ceasefire benefitting Israel after stating you wanted it so Palestine could destroy "the Zionist entity". You keep moving the goalposts to the argument that suits you and at this point, and given that is straight up contradicting your post on the same page, I don't think you're arguing for a ceasefire in good faith in anyway. Those are in fact contradictory.
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Oct 29, 2023 08:24
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They are not contradictory, both sides of a conflict choose to accept a ceasefire when they both feel it would be advantageous to themselves. Hamas to lift the siege and give its allies time to prepare, and Israel to restock munitions and cycle it's reservists out.
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Oct 29, 2023 08:28
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punishedkissinger posted:Gaza is a captive population held in prison by Israel. I dont believe they have the capacity to completely destroy the state, but if you think they do, then Israel should probably start negotiating I believe Israel has overwhelming military power, a dominant position, and no chance of a defeat in the current circumstances including outside actors intervening. I believe that given that this is the case the only ceasefire or surrender Israel would even hope to entertain would be Hamas leaderships head on pikes, as espoused by both Israel, and honestly most of the world actors who now regard Hamas as not legitimate but akin to Al Qaeda or Islamic State (though Hamas isn't a terrorist group, no matter how much the media states their actions as terrorist actions). I could believe in an idealised outcome of Israel has made their point and they'd leave Palestine alone to self-govern but that's just insane and I'm more likely to agree this will never end on either side. But that makes for a really dumb dnd thread if we just throw up our hands and say "ok everyone on one of these sides has to die." Nancy posted:You've identified part of the practical issue with theory crafting a ceasefire. The Israeli government wouldn't agree to a ceasefire at this point; they aren't exhausted in terms of materiel or personnel, they're accepting of widespread collateral damage, the foreign government that matters is in support, and their current strategy of mass killing Palestinians to nominally get to Hamas is one the ruling Governmental faction & its allies likes. Cheers 
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Oct 29, 2023 08:35
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A small part of me is not convinced Israel can actually win this war. Pressure is mounting on them over the genocide they are committing. World governments are recognizing that Israel is committing genocide, and just in general in gaza; urban warfare is extremely difficult. The U.S. was unable to win its wars in the middle east despite significantly more fire power and resources than Israel. Hamas has a very good tunnel system that Israel has been unable to destroy, and they are a conscript army with no fighting experience on the ground. Their bombing campaign will not stop hamas. Israel can commit and win the complete genocide of the gaza people, but it would come at a grave cost to their standing in the international community. Israel actually probably loses either way. Israel also needs to consider the massive hit to their economy. It is effectively on pause right now. And hundreds of thousands of civilians are displaced that lived in the north. Unemployment will be through the roof when this is finally over. Then they have to wrestle with all of their political corruption and possibly removing the supreme court. I said come in! fucked around with this message at 09:00 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 08:56
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22 days since they were attacked and they have not achieved or even made any measureable progress towards achieving a military goal. this is while fighting an enemy inside their own borders who they supposedly have been ready to fight for decades.
punishedkissinger fucked around with this message at 09:12 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 09:00
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Zionism is the belief that the last 2,000 years of Jewish life were entirely worthless and that Jews need to shape up by becoming characters from an illustrated Christian Bible.
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Oct 29, 2023 09:07
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https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveb...r-oct-7-attack/ Israeli leadership starting to fall apart and fight each other over public messaging. Big Hubris posted:Zionism is the belief that the last 2,000 years of Jewish life were entirely worthless and that Jews need to shape up by becoming characters from an illustrated Christian Bible. This tracks with how Israel views jews that survived the holocaust. That group is among the poorest in Israel, and socially, Jews that were born in Israel, view them as weak and pathetic. Its an extremely toxic country socially and im constantly floored at all of the new and horrifying things ive been learning about Israeli society. punishedkissinger posted:22 days since they were attacked and they have not achieved or even made any measureable progress towards achieving a military goal. this is while fighting an enemy inside their own borders who they supposedly have been ready to fight for decades. Israel is expecting the war to last years. Their economy cant hold out that long. It was already bad before this. I said come in! fucked around with this message at 09:23 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 09:18
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Pretty clear Netanyahu is lying his rear end off because this is not giving him a GWB bump in the populace and they're very aware this is his failure and his fault. Pretty much he was hoping thus would save his leadership but the prevailing thought is we agree with the bombings but once it's over you're gone too if not before. So much evidence he knew that this was planned and didn't care because what's the worst that could happen? Conspiracy more likely to be he let it happen on purpose but that does him no favours either.
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Oct 29, 2023 09:22
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I said come in! posted:This tracks with how Israel views jews that survived the holocaust. That group is among the poorest in Israel, and socially, Jews that were born in Israel, view them as weak and pathetic. Its an extremely toxic country socially and im constantly floored at all of the new and horrifying things ive been learning about Israeli society. what I lived in Israel for 29 years and I have never seen this sentiment, aside from historically immediately after the holocaust before all the facts were know. They are also definitely not the poorest.
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Oct 29, 2023 09:37
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kiminewt posted:what https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/2015...ff-fd9de0f30000 This appears to be what is being referenced. It is pay walled but it appears to quote someone saying 
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Oct 29, 2023 09:42
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You always use a ceasefire to carry out whatever recuperation and maneuvering you can. A ceasefire can also have a variety of motivations, and can very much be a sincerely intentioned first step in ending hostilities, bringing the temperature down and allowing the diplomats to do their work. These aren't contradictory and it isn't a condemnation of anyone that while observing a ceasefire they try to position themselves as best they can in the event it breaks down.
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Oct 29, 2023 09:43
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kiminewt posted:what https://www.wgbh.org/news/2014-05-20/poverty-among-holocaust-survivors-hits-a-nerve-in-israel and I mean you can live in a country and not know certain bad things are happening within it. Americans make it a point of pride to remain ignorant to their own struggles, and Israel seems to have learned all of the same bad traits from us! https://x.com/alarabytv/status/1718548138330407296?s=46 #عاجل | Palestinian Red Crescent: We received strong threats from the occupation authorities to immediately evacuate Al-Quds Hospital in Gaza in preparation for its bombing. I said come in! fucked around with this message at 09:55 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 09:45
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i fly airplanes posted:Are you talking about the same side shooting innocent youth at a music festival out of impotent rage, took civilian hostages and won't release them, and haven't offered anything for negotiations or stopped launching indiscriminate rockets at civilians? 1 drop in an ocean my guy - people have told you ad nauseum that the music festival raid didn't happen in a vacuum The evidence is continuously stacking every minute that Israel doesn't and does not want to act in good faith at all
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Oct 29, 2023 10:11
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