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fwiw it's not obvious to me that this is *that* big a deal. i doubt anyone actually thinks that russia is going to start serious poo poo in the nordics (tbh i doubt they ever did beyond in some cases a moment of panic following the invasion of ukraine) and they were already sort of honourary members. politicians really do prefer to avoid publicly breaking laws like this, and it's not the end of 2001 with a completely psychotic US government breathing down everyone's necks. erdogan being intransigent also sort of settles the issue domestically, and i doubt that the americans will be too pissed at sweden and finland not seriously violating their norms for his benefit. it may just end with the membership application being on ice until a more agreeable turkish government emerges - i certainly don't see at least sweden returning to a formal policy of neutrality any time soon, given the very strong pro-american political current sweeping the land.
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Nov 18, 2022 01:07
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V. Illych L. posted:fwiw it's not obvious to me that this is *that* big a deal. i doubt anyone actually thinks that russia is going to start serious poo poo in the nordics (tbh i doubt they ever did beyond in some cases a moment of panic following the invasion of ukraine) and they were already sort of honourary members. politicians really do prefer to avoid publicly breaking laws like this, and it's not the end of 2001 with a completely psychotic US government breathing down everyone's necks. erdogan being intransigent also sort of settles the issue domestically, and i doubt that the americans will be too pissed at sweden and finland not seriously violating their norms for his benefit. it may just end with the membership application being on ice until a more agreeable turkish government emerges - i certainly don't see at least sweden returning to a formal policy of neutrality any time soon, given the very strong pro-american political current sweeping the land. I agree and the reasonable thing would be to just meet Turkey's bullshit straight on and put the onus on them to move, and be on the wait list until they buckle. Sweden is not in a dire need to join NATO now, not after Russia shot themselves in the foot over and over in 2022. Putting the blame on Turkey and wait would be a much better move than to meet Erdogan's demands, but then it seems both S and M showed themselves to be really happy at the chance to kow-tow to authoritarian regimes.
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Nov 18, 2022 10:31
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The Swedish government has nothing to lose by waiting. Erdrogan on the other hand probably has some pretty big NATO players breathing down his neck.
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Nov 18, 2022 10:35
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lilljonas posted:I agree and the reasonable thing would be to just meet Turkey's bullshit straight on and put the onus on them to move, and be on the wait list until they buckle. Sweden is not in a dire need to join NATO now, not after Russia shot themselves in the foot over and over in 2022. Putting the blame on Turkey and wait would be a much better move than to meet Erdogan's demands, but then it seems both S and M showed themselves to be really happy at the chance to kow-tow to authoritarian regimes. well i mean that last part is sort of given following the official decision to become a US client, but the main difference between what sweden and finland have now and what they'd get as formal NATO members are basically all arms deals and access to another batch of cushy international jobs. that's worth changing some laws and sacrificing a few annoying dissidents, but i don't think it's worth flagrantly breaking their own rules - though we will see, of course. where there's political will, there's usually a way. it's also not something that can be officially admitted - formally, the reason to join NATO has to be that joining NATO is necessary for national security. if it is publicly agreed that it *isn't*, then it's a hard to argue that you shouldn't have an actual public debate about it (this was largely foregone during the actual decision-making process, under the pretext of an acute threat of invasion - in which, to reiterate, i don't think anyone really believed for more than a week or two), and that public debate could spin out of control and have unpleasant consequences unless very carefully managed. Feliday Melody posted:The Swedish government has nothing to lose by waiting. erdogan is actually pretty good at playing foreign policy hardball like this and has done it for a long time, with considerable success. see stoltenberg's remarks about how we have to be understanding of turkish security concerns as an example of turkey's position in NATO - it is entirely arguable that, while the USA is far and away the most important country in NATO, turkey's at least a strong contender for number two. the USA clearly wants them in, but doesn't seem to feel that strongly about it - and that means that the turks get to wring whatever they can out of the new prospects.
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Nov 18, 2022 13:25
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V. Illych L. posted:erdogan is actually pretty good at playing foreign policy hardball like this and has done it for a long time, with considerable success. see stoltenberg's remarks about how we have to be understanding of turkish security concerns as an example of turkey's position in NATO - it is entirely arguable that, while the USA is far and away the most important country in NATO, turkey's at least a strong contender for number two. the USA clearly wants them in, but doesn't seem to feel that strongly about it - and that means that the turks get to wring whatever they can out of the new prospects. But if Sweden refuses to negotiate, then Turkey has nothing to gain from blocking Sweden's entry, but probably some things to lose diplomatically. They are playing this game solely to wring free stuff out of new members. Not that they have any genuine concerns.
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Nov 18, 2022 13:59
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Feliday Melody posted:But if Sweden refuses to negotiate, then Turkey has nothing to gain from blocking Sweden's entry, but probably some things to lose diplomatically. It lets Erdogan feel good about swinging his big balls around.
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Nov 18, 2022 14:01
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Jack Trades posted:It lets Erdogan feel good about swinging his big balls around. Sadly we have a wet blanket for prime minister who seems completely star struck being close to Big Boys.
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Nov 18, 2022 14:43
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Potrzebie posted:Sadly we have a wet blanket for prime minister who seems completely star struck being close to Big Boys. Wet blankets can at least serve some sort of beneficial purpose, no need to disparage them
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Nov 18, 2022 14:46
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Nice piece of fish posted:Well then hold on to your butt because I'm about to explain to you why Atle Antonsen is completely innocent: Henlagt lol
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Nov 18, 2022 17:40
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teen witch posted:Wet blankets can at least serve some sort of beneficial purpose, no need to disparage them Throw Uffe on a fire, he might be as useful as a wet blanket, who knows?
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Nov 18, 2022 17:43
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Nice piece of fish posted:Henlagt lol do you have any idea as to why this would happen? like, would it be mutual consent or because the police doesn't much like this kind of affair or what?
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Nov 18, 2022 18:42
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Feliday Melody posted:But if Sweden refuses to negotiate, then Turkey has nothing to gain from blocking Sweden's entry, but probably some things to lose diplomatically. yeah, if sweden flat-out refuses to go any further then he's in the red except for the relatively minor concessions he's already managed to wring out of them (proscribing the PKK and ending the arms embargo being the bigger ones). the issue then is that he's vulnerable on the home front because the turkish ultranationalists can claim that he's letting himself get pushed around, since his government has taken a public position that the memorandum has not been fully satisfied. whether they think that it's worth caving to avoid NATO being annoyed at him or that it's worth NATO being annoyed with him to keep the local psychos happy is a separate equation, and not one which i pretend to be able to answer
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Nov 18, 2022 18:47
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Nice piece of fish posted:Henlagt lol 
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Nov 18, 2022 20:15
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V. Illych L. posted:do you have any idea as to why this would happen? like, would it be mutual consent or because the police doesn't much like this kind of affair or what? Yes, AA is a rich white male. No, obviously we are not privvy to details about the incident and the reporting on the reasoning is atrocious, but in fact if the prosecution refuses to prosecute you are poo poo out of luck. The basic idea here is that the prosecutor doesn't think he passes the bar for gross negligence and the victim didn't perceive it as malicious as necessary for it to be criminal. Basically, they think the "it was all a big misunderstanding"-defence is possible, so the joke angle works for Antonsen here. Do I agree? I obviously don't have the facts, and probably misread the situation but I'm not super convinced. I'd like more reasoning and facts here first.
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Nov 18, 2022 23:40
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Nice piece of fish posted:Yes, AA is a rich white male. thanks yeah i agree that the reasoning is on its face very strange. do you reckon we'll get more information, or is this it?
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Nov 19, 2022 01:32
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V. Illych L. posted:thanks Well, no trial means no more information. I think this one boils down to a "he didn't mean it like that" situation, which the prosecution believes based on their evidence. This makes the behavior no less racist, but he then - possibly - lacks sufficient criminal intent for a case of criminal racism. What I don't get is the gross negligence component. It's not easy to be held guilty of that but you don't need straight criminal intent. And from the papers the victim doesn't seem to agree this was a joke? Unintentional? So... I dunno, guess the police have information I don't. This is a pretty poo poo handling of this issue though, way to broadcast to all the "jokesters" out there how you beat a racism charge.
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Nov 19, 2022 09:40
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You got multiple witnesses that could corroborate that this was racist and one who physically restrained him while Ai got away, but on the other hand:Nice piece of fish posted:AA is a rich white male.
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Nov 19, 2022 09:54
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If you’re in Sthlm area and can work from home: please for the love of God do so.
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Nov 21, 2022 09:43
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BigglesSWE posted:If you’re in Sthlm area and can work from home: please for the love of God do so. haha, the principal just emailed us asking all parents to pick up the kids at lunchtime so the staff won't have to spend the night at school. I love how Stockholm completely breaks down when snow happens. We just can't figure this stuff out.
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Nov 21, 2022 10:18
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This was so bizarre to hear about, when I lived in Sweden. Uppsala seemed to handle the snow perfectly fine, comparatively. I guess it’s also much smaller, but it’s still your default old European city with road planning for a traffic of 3 horse carts. 
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Nov 21, 2022 10:26
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We just get cold, no snow. My son keeps wishing for snow. I keep chopping firewood, getting up in the morning and it's 17C indoors, Really don't wanna get out from under the covers...
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Nov 21, 2022 10:30
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I’m working on the MTR commute trains and all my trains have been cancelled this morning. The weather has hosed with a bunch of signals all over the place and a snow clearing vehicle derailed somewhere on the way to Nynäshamn and it pulled down some power lines, which at the best of times is a whole day to fix but during this storm? Woof. I’m having a blast though, every chaotic day is more fun when you’re getting paid to do nothing.
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Nov 21, 2022 11:05
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I still do not get how anywhere in Sweden is baffled by the existence of snow and that in order for the country to function, you must handle and deal with the snow.
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Nov 21, 2022 11:09
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teen witch posted:I still do not get how anywhere in Sweden is baffled by the existence of snow and that in order for the country to function, you must handle and deal with the snow. Public-private-partnership fixes this! 
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Nov 21, 2022 11:15
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Sthml not being able to handle snow is a running joke, I know it's because it's so big and that there are logistical issues with snow in such a big city but it's still funny. Every year I laugh whenever I read that sthlm is in chaos because of the snow.
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Nov 21, 2022 11:18
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It’s not so much that snow cripples us, it’s when snow comes crashing down in crazy volumes in a short amount of time that the system breaks.
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Nov 21, 2022 11:24
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But like even here in Eskilstuna we’ve had a far too many scrambly incidents of “you mean the snow can come here too?”, not to mention public transit collapsing the moment a flake is spotted. Like how is this not embarrassing? I’ve seen cities south of the Mason-Dixon handle a goddamn cm of fluff better, how?
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Nov 21, 2022 11:24
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teen witch posted:I still do not get how anywhere in Sweden is baffled by the existence of snow and that in order for the country to function, you must handle and deal with the snow. To me this speaks to something that's quintessentially modern swedish. Never Be Prepared. It's a waste of money.
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Nov 21, 2022 11:31
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His Divine Shadow posted:To me this speaks to something that's quintessentially modern swedish. Never Be Prepared. It's a waste of money. Men Men Om krisen eller kriget kommer???
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Nov 21, 2022 11:34
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BigglesSWE posted:If you’re in Sthlm area and can work from home: please for the love of God do so. I was sent to Stockholm from Gothenburg today. There's a bit of snow
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Nov 21, 2022 11:51
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BigglesSWE posted:If you’re in Sthlm area and can work from home: please for the love of God do so. Lol, my workplace had a planned power outage over the weekend so I had to go in this morning to boot up my remote computers, because that still has to be done in person for some reason.
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Nov 21, 2022 12:18
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teen witch posted:Men Den dagen, den sorgen.
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Nov 21, 2022 12:31
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normally the "lol stockholm" comments are well deserved but this time it's been snowing more or less constantly for 48 hours, and you cannot in fact clear snow before it's fallen
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Nov 21, 2022 12:45
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teen witch posted:Men The people that matter will always have enough money to just move out and gently caress the rest.
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Nov 21, 2022 12:46
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TheFluff posted:normally the "lol stockholm" comments are well deserved but this time it's been snowing more or less constantly for 48 hours, and you cannot in fact clear snow before it's fallen
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Nov 21, 2022 13:17
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His Divine Shadow posted:We just get cold, no snow. My son keeps wishing for snow. I keep chopping firewood, getting up in the morning and it's 17C indoors, Really don't wanna get out from under the covers... I like it, my hope is that lakes get a good ice cover before there's a metre of snow to insulate it. That will also form into solid ice, but takes so much more time.
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Nov 21, 2022 13:28
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I made some impromptu ice rinks last night, forgot to empy the rainwater barrels. I turned over three 200 liter barrels who had frozen over. Nothing came out. I had to use an axe to chop up the ice layer to drain them. Kids loved it. They confiscated my smithing hammer and crushed ice for half an hour.
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Nov 21, 2022 13:48
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A Buttery Pastry posted:They could install fans to blow the snow away before it lands. Or put heating in the streets to melt it off. This is neither Farum or Iceland
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Nov 21, 2022 14:02
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BigglesSWE posted:It’s not so much that snow cripples us, it’s when snow comes crashing down in crazy volumes in a short amount of time that the system breaks. Last time it snowed like this in Stockholm was 2015. It's rare but it happens. I wish there were protocols in place to shut down non-essential societal functions until there's time to clear the streets and get the buses and trains working again but that would require political leadership and coordination. Still, every winter when the first 2cm of snow comes people drive on summer tires and chaos ensues which is our own drat fault end deserving of ridicule.
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Nov 21, 2022 15:30
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BonHair posted:This is neither Farum or Iceland 1. Strøget in Aarhus
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Nov 21, 2022 15:53
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