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Q_res posted:"Was never a big draw" is such a lovely, disingenuous argument. Nobody's ever a big draw unless the Booker/Promoter puts them in a position to be the big draw. and people aren't Hall of Famers in legit sports unless they are on the right team. It is what it is.
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Sep 30, 2019 20:02
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Q_res posted:"Was never a big draw" is such a lovely, disingenuous argument. Nobody's ever a big draw unless the Booker/Promoter puts them in a position to be the big draw. okay but guerrero and jericho were put into a position to be big draws and failed (Guerrero more so than Jericho, Jericho was just mediocre). Austin and Foley were put into a position to be big draws and succeeded. That's how it has worked for the entire history of professional wrestling, it doesn't take anything away from the performers. I don't value drawing power as much as other people when looking at "the GOAT" but there's a reason why it's a metric used and valued by journalists and the workers themselves.
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Sep 30, 2019 20:10
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Low Desert Punk posted:okay but guerrero and jericho were put into a position to be big draws and failed (Guerrero more so than Jericho, Jericho was just mediocre). Austin and Foley were put into a position to be big draws and succeeded. That's how it has worked for the entire history of professional wrestling, it doesn't take anything away from the performers. I don't value drawing power as much as other people when looking at "the GOAT" but there's a reason why it's a metric used and valued by journalists and the workers themselves. Jericho has also been put in positions to draw and it worked out great.
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Sep 30, 2019 20:21
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MassRafTer posted:Jericho has also been put in positions to draw and it worked out great. but not the GOAT level
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Sep 30, 2019 20:28
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Randaconda posted:and people aren't Hall of Famers in legit sports unless they are on the right team. It is what it is. Imagine thinking Calvin Johnson isn't a Hall of Famer e: Or that the Detroit Lions might be "the right team"
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Sep 30, 2019 20:36
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https://twitter.com/itsvadertime/status/1178756036766965761 I woulda watched this A-Team.
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Sep 30, 2019 20:39
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If we exclude all the things that prove Jericho's a big draw and narrow the definition to only the top five drawing cards of all time ever, then yeah, Jericho's not a big draw.
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Sep 30, 2019 20:46
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Defiance Industries posted:Imagine thinking Calvin Johnson isn't a Hall of Famer yeah well how many times did Calvin Johnson sell out the Garden that's what I thought
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Sep 30, 2019 20:51
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Randaconda posted:and people aren't Hall of Famers in legit sports unless they are on the right team. It is what it is. If you think about it deeply enough, there's never been a successful wrestling company and therefore never anyone who's truly drawn.
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Sep 30, 2019 20:51
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I liked Jericho's early stuff, but he ended up like Mick Foley. He shows up, does the 3 things that made him WWE-famous and then fucks off until he feels the need to come back. The NJPW and AEW runs have definitely cemented his credibility for being an all time great and certainly the ambassador for smallish men in a bigman sport.
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Sep 30, 2019 20:52
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Edge & Christian posted:Are we arguing that there's only 3-5 people who deserve to be discussed for GOAT/Hall of Fame/"one of the best ever" as the same concepts or is this just fun water muddying? GOAT doesn't equal hall of famer, though? Jericho's in the Observer HoF, which is fine, but he's certainly not in the running for GOAT, unless somebody can point me to the massive houses and business changing angles he's done.
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Sep 30, 2019 20:54
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Randaconda posted:GOAT doesn't equal hall of famer, though? Jericho's in the Observer HoF, which is fine, but he's certainly not in the running for GOAT, unless somebody can point me to the massive houses and business changing angles he's done. Uhhhh being the world champion during the most important shift in wrestling since 2002 But keep moving those goalposts
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Sep 30, 2019 20:58
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I am fully willing to accept Jericho's presence in AEW as a business shifting paradigm. Because otherwise the convo is just Hulk, Rock or Austin.
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Sep 30, 2019 21:00
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Randaconda posted:and people aren't Hall of Famers in legit sports unless they are on the right team. It is what it is. This is so objectively loving false that I'm kind of at a loss as to what to even say to it. Barry Sanders, Dan Marino, Karl Malone, Ted Williams, Ernie Banks... I mean come the gently caress on. Low Desert Punk posted:okay but guerrero and jericho were put into a position to be big draws and failed (Guerrero more so than Jericho, Jericho was just mediocre). Austin and Foley were put into a position to be big draws and succeeded. That's how it has worked for the entire history of professional wrestling, it doesn't take anything away from the performers. I don't value drawing power as much as other people when looking at "the GOAT" but there's a reason why it's a metric used and valued by journalists and the workers themselves. I'll grant you Guerrero, though my point was more that he'd have never even sniffed the Main Event in WCW, but fair enough. Jericho though? They cut his legs out from underneath him immediately, made their champion the third wheel in a HHH/Stephanie storyline and completely chumped him out. The fact that he managed to remain over at all is a testament to how good he is. edit: To further my point, look at the current WWE roster where absolutely loving nobody is over for more than 5 minutes unless they wrestled during the Attitude Era. Drawing power has got to be the least important factor in being the GOAT because it's the one that the wrestler has the least direct control of. Q_res fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Sep 30, 2019 |
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Sep 30, 2019 21:02
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Defiance Industries posted:Uhhhh being the world champion during the most important shift in wrestling since 2002 Mmmm yes, I forgot the wrestling boom Jericho kicked off.
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Sep 30, 2019 21:06
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Randaconda posted:Mmmm yes, I forgot the wrestling boom Jericho kicked off. the Smackdown Six says gently caress you too, pal.
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Sep 30, 2019 21:10
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Randaconda posted:Mmmm yes, I forgot the wrestling boom Jericho kicked off. Okay so now it's not just changing the industry, AEW has to start an entire industry wide boom. And if that happens I'm sure you'll say it doesn't count because they didn't bankrupt WWE. And if they did that it still won't count to you because Jericho didn't personally beat Vince and Hunter to death with the AEW belt. Move those goalposts.
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Sep 30, 2019 21:10
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Defiance Industries posted:Okay so now it's not just changing the industry, AEW has to start an entire industry wide boom. And if that happens I'm sure you'll say it doesn't count because they didn't bankrupt WWE. And if they did that it still won't count to you because Jericho didn't personally beat Vince and Hunter to death with the AEW belt. I haven't moved a single one. OP said Jericho was one of the GOAT, and I responded that either he wasn't, or the phrase GOAT is so loose as to be meaningless, but fine, you win. Jericho has meant as much to business as the Rock, Austin, Hogan, and Bruno. I
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Sep 30, 2019 21:20
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Q_res posted:This is so objectively loving false that I'm kind of at a loss as to what to even say to it. Barry Sanders, Dan Marino, Karl Malone, Ted Williams, Ernie Banks... Q_res posted:They cut his legs out from underneath him immediately, made their champion the third wheel in a HHH/Stephanie storyline and completely chumped him out. The fact that he managed to remain over at all is a testament to how good he is. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Sep 30, 2019 |
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Sep 30, 2019 21:21
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Bruno worked for a territory that couldn't even expand nationwide off of his 'popularity'. Austin never drew in China or India, which are both way more populous than the United States. Hogan needed Mister T to draw Wrestlemania buys. No one is actually good, much less great. I guess my question was more "how many GOATs are allowed", is it just four? That seems hosed up, how can four people be the greatest, especially when they may be from different eras or industry landscapes, and also FOUR, seems like you're letting anyone in.
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Sep 30, 2019 21:30
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I'm gonna buy a Chris Jericho shirt on Wednesday because he drew me.
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Sep 30, 2019 21:30
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wait if you're using drawing in India as a metric, then Scott Steiner is GOAT.
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Sep 30, 2019 21:37
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Here are Jericho's big business successes: Major act in CMLL in the early to mid 90s 2008 run especially feud with HBK did good business Co-Mained two Dome shows that did great gates, first one led to a big increase in NJPW World subs. Sold out two cruises First two AEW PPVs and first three TVs sold out instantly. He also headlined some shows in 2000 and 2001 that sold out but how much you want to credit him is up to you. Then there is WM 18 which sold out and disappointed on PPV, but those PPV numbers were still big in retrospect... but how much was HHH vs Jericho compared to Hogan vs Rock.
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Sep 30, 2019 21:39
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coconono posted:wait if you're using drawing in India as a metric, then Scott Steiner is GOAT. i'm ready to admit that regardless
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Sep 30, 2019 21:43
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Chris Jericho loving rules
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Sep 30, 2019 22:18
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WCW Jericho is best Jericho and everything since is a downwards slide - which still puts him above 95% of his competition today.
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Sep 30, 2019 22:45
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The fact that Jericho has gotten so many variants of himself over solidifies to me that he's one of the best to ever do it.
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Sep 30, 2019 23:54
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Neodoomium posted:The fact that Jericho has gotten so many variants of himself over solidifies to me that he's one of the best to ever do it. I always knew Jericho was really good I just never appreciated him as much as I probably should have until he reinvented himself once again in AEW and it all finally clicked for me. Now I can rewatch any of his stuff with any incarnation of his character and truly appreciate that he's one of the best to ever do it.
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Oct 1, 2019 00:03
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Low Desert Punk posted:okay but guerrero and jericho were put into a position to be big draws and failed (Guerrero more so than Jericho, Jericho was just mediocre). Austin and Foley were put into a position to be big draws and succeeded. I like Foley but like historically how much did he ever move the needle? He was definitely third wheel to Austin and the Rock from what I remember but that was a long time ago
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Oct 1, 2019 00:19
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Gambit from the X-Men posted:I like Foley but like historically how much did he ever move the needle? seriously?
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Oct 1, 2019 00:25
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Gambit from the X-Men posted:I like Foley but like historically how much did he ever move the needle? Mick is literally a central part of two of the highest rated segments in RAW history.
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Oct 1, 2019 00:27
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coconono posted:seriously? Not really I just wanted a Jericho isn't in contention hot take, I am sorry there were sincere responses and for wasting the time of two Gambit from the X-Men fucked around with this message at 00:47 on Oct 1, 2019 |
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Oct 1, 2019 00:39
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El Gallinero Gros posted:Mick is literally a central part of two of the highest rated segments in RAW history. Along with his success on television, Foley always drew really good gates when he was main-eventing, iirc. especially in 98. I suppose you could argue that's more due to the product being hot, but I would argue that the product was hot BECAUSE of Mick in the first place, at least partially
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Oct 1, 2019 00:48
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Low Desert Punk posted:Along with his success on television, Foley always drew really good gates when he was main-eventing, iirc. especially in 98. I suppose you could argue that's more due to the product being hot, but I would argue that the product was hot BECAUSE of Mick in the first place, at least partially (extremely triple h voice) ackchually...
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Oct 1, 2019 00:49
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El Gallinero Gros posted:Mick is literally a central part of two of the highest rated segments in RAW history. 1) Austin vs. Undertaker - June 28 1999 (9.5) 2) HHH/Undertaker/Shane vs. Austin/Rock/Vince - May 10 1999 (9.17) 3) The Stooges vs. The Mean Street Posse - May 10 1999 (8.61) 4) Rock & Lita vs. HHH & Trish Stratus - July 31 2000 (8.46) 5) The Rock, This is Your Life - September 27 1999 (8.39) 6) Benoit/Angle vs. Rock/Kane - July 24 2000 (8.35) 7) Shane McMahon vs. The Rock - May 1 2000 (8.23) 8) Vince McMahon Threatens Stone Cold Against Returning - April 24, 2000 (8.12) 9) Kane vs. Undertaker & Big Show - July 26, 1999 (7.81) 10) Steve Austin Bans Vince McMahon from Raw - July 26, 1999 (7.77) ... ??) The Rock vs. Mankind - January 4, 1999 (6.2/5.9) I know that WWE for some reason claims that This is Your Life is their highest rated segment, but it isn't. And the Rock/Mankind title match (ft. Austin) is seen as a big milestone in terms of the tide turning in the Monday Night Wars, but even that is poetic license (Foley's Fairy Tale Victory vs. The Fingerpoke of Doom) than reality, because Raw started regularly beating Nitro in the ratings right after Wrestlemania 14, and the last time Nitro won head-to-head was in October 1998. All ten of the top rated quarter hours are either a) segments featuring Rock and/or Austin or b) segments on shows with Rock and/or Austin in the main event immediately after them. Both (or I guess maybe all three, if you were thinking of Halftime Heat?) of Mick Foley's biggest segments were co-starring the Rock. I love Foley but it's not wrong to see him as a third wheel to Rock and Austin, though that still puts him ahead of anyone else not named Vince or maybe Undertaker in that era who were fifth or twelfth or forty-eighth wheels. I think his contribution to the Monday Night Wars is overlooked/minimized sometimes, especially by WWE, but it's really hard to compete with Rock or Austin as draws/needle movers. Edge & Christian fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Oct 1, 2019 |
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Oct 1, 2019 00:50
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Low Desert Punk posted:Along with his success on television, Foley always drew really good gates when he was main-eventing, iirc. especially in 98. I suppose you could argue that's more due to the product being hot, but I would argue that the product was hot BECAUSE of Mick in the first place, at least partially One of the happiest moments I've ever had as a wrestling fan is Mick winning the title for the 1st time.
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Oct 1, 2019 00:51
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Halloween Jack posted:These comparisons aren't cogent anyway in an era where one company rules the Anglophone market. I'm not the one who wanted to make a comparison to legitimate sports. When someone says "players don't get into the HoF without playing for the right team" those comparisons of HoF players that played for 2nd tier or lower teams and never won championships is a perfectly cogent way to show how utterly loving stupid that statement is. Q_res fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Oct 1, 2019 |
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Oct 1, 2019 00:57
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Gambit from the X-Men posted:I like Foley but like historically how much did he ever move the needle? Whilst this is not what you meant, but there is the famous "That'll put bums on seats" comment that caused thousands of people to change the channel in real time to watch him win his first WWF championship. And Jericho is awesome, and GOAT status, for however many people youthink deserve that title, should be about more than 'drawing money'. Consistent quality, consistent good drawing at a main event level, and consistent innovation over a number of companies over a number of decades should count for something. And Jericho has certainly done that.
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Oct 1, 2019 01:25
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If we're talking draws, Ric Flair and Antonio Inoki main evented a "sold out" 100k seat arena in North Korea. Edit: Furthering Scott Steiner's claim to GOAT status, he was also on the card.
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Oct 1, 2019 03:53
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i mean if you ask big dave on twitter who the biggest draw of all time was, the answer he will always give is Jim Londos, who reportedly regularly drew crowds of 100k+ in Greece.
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Oct 1, 2019 04:58
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