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Ok, I'm going to move up to the Raven, kick it, and PPC the Urbie. I still think the best move for the Ostroc is 0806 or 0807, though, so we can cover each other's backs. edit: orders are in generally I prefer fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Nov 13, 2011 |
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Nov 13, 2011 04:27
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Don't let those light mechs behind you, Goons. Even a light can ruin your day if they get a shot at delicious back armor.
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Nov 13, 2011 04:30
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Trast posted:Don't let those light mechs behind you, Goons. Even a light can ruin your day if they get a shot at delicious back armor. Not as big an issue with the goons always winning init. Can't be stated enough how huge of an advantage this is.
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Nov 13, 2011 04:38
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KnoxZone posted:Not as big an issue with the goons always winning init. All it takes is one successful end-run, though.
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Nov 13, 2011 04:40
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I know it doesn't really matter anymore now that the EW equipment on the Raven has been slagged, but how does that whole Measure of Success/Measure of Failure thing work? As for the actual turn, that Raven survived getting hit with 2 PPCs and a brace of Medium Lasers?  Of course, almost all of its weapons are gone due to both of its arms being blown off, it's EW equipment was in its ruined left torso, and it's only remaining weapon's ammo was also disposed of. Still, it's still dangerous as it can spot for LRM fire, so while it isn't as high of a priority now, you guys should still take it out sooner rather than later.The Hermes and Mongoose are now moving up to try and flank you guys on the left, and that Gauss Urbie down there is in range for a shot. Should probably take care of the flankers first. Also, I guess Paul Masters is just unlucky, falling like that while attempting a kick on the Raven. Probably not living up to his future reputation, I guess. Don't worry, Defiance, you should be able to pull off something worthy of his name later on in the mission... At least, I hope you will.
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Nov 13, 2011 05:20
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GhostStalker posted:I know it doesn't really matter anymore now that the EW equipment on the Raven has been slagged, but how does that whole Measure of Success/Measure of Failure thing work? From what I gather, the Raven rolls a piloting check with a +2 bonus from using an inferior ECM unit to create ghost images. In this case 4+2 for a 6 piloting check. The Measure of Success equals the amount over the minimum value if any. In this case, 11-6=5. The Measure of Failure is how much of a penalty the opposing team has to hitting the target. The Raven starts with a +2 to all rolls against it starting with the Awesome. If the pilot fails a piloting check against the Measure of Failure, it adds the total MoF to its attack rolls for the round. If the pilot succeeds, the MoF is reduced by 1, and any remaining MoF is still applied. The next pilot then rolls against the MoF until either the MoF is removed, or all pilots finish shooting. The piloting check made by the pilots against the MoF is their base piloting check plus the Measure of Success of the enemy pilot. For example, the Awesome's Piloting check was 3+5=8.
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Nov 13, 2011 05:59
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Krumbsthumbs posted:Close, but not quite You were dead-on for measure of success. The Raven's measure of success was used as a modifier to enemy piloting tests (in this case, a +5). For every point the player 'Mech failed by, divided by two, it received a penalty to its attacks against the Raven. Ghost Images are really situational, but they apply to all enemy weapon attacks that pass through an ECM bubble, regardless of the target.
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Nov 13, 2011 06:25
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Krumbsthumbs posted:The Measure of Failure is how much of a penalty the opposing team has to hitting the target. The Raven starts with a +2 to all rolls against it starting with the Awesome. If the pilot fails a piloting check against the Measure of Failure, it adds the total MoF to its attack rolls for the round. If the pilot succeeds, the MoF is reduced by 1, and any remaining MoF is still applied. The next pilot then rolls against the MoF until either the MoF is removed, or all pilots finish shooting. Huh, I see. I understood how the Measure of Success was calculated, as well as the piloting check to attempt to overcome the Sensor Ghosts, as those were just basic math alongside the basic explanations in PTN's summary, but I had no idea how the base Measure of Failure was done and how it got lowered. I also understood that the MoF was to be added to GoonLance's shooting rolls, once I saw that in action. EDIT: /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ Ah, that makes much more sense. Thanks for the explanation, PTN. Last but not least, I think you forgot to update the limbs blown off and the sections destroyed during the severe beating the Raven took last turn in the Mech summary at the end of your update there, PTN... GhostStalker fucked around with this message at 06:34 on Nov 13, 2011 |
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Nov 13, 2011 06:31
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GhostStalker posted:One question about your explanation, though: How did the Measure of Failure drop to 1 on the Ostroc's attempt if it failed the piloting roll? The Ostroc failed less hard than the others. The Awesome and Orion both failed by 4 points (4/2 = 2), the Ostroc failed by 3 (3/2 = 1). And no I didn't. I don't consider torso/limb destruction to be critical damage (I've just been documenting it because people keep bringing it up). The record sheets are correct.
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Nov 13, 2011 06:33
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 That's why a light shouldn't get too close to an assault.
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Nov 13, 2011 06:39
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PoptartsNinja posted:The Ostroc failed less hard than the others. The Awesome and Orion both failed by 4 points (4/2 = 2), the Ostroc failed by 3 (3/2 = 1). Fair enough. Again, thanks for the explanation.
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Nov 13, 2011 06:40
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GhostStalker posted:Fair enough. Again, thanks for the explanation. Also, I'm not using 'failure' here in terms of 'my players are all failures.' It's battletech. Most failures are fail-dice.
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Nov 13, 2011 06:55
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On the Goonlance 'Mechs and how they look. I think the canon Orion is a textbook case of how, with the exception of a few derpy Assaults (hey there Gargoyle, Executioner), Clan 'Mechs just plain look better than IS 'Mechs. Or at least pre-Jihad IS designs. It's not without potential but, well, its silhouette is defined by a missle launcher that acts as a pauldron. A big one. That's a tough one to work with, visually. Even the Ostroc is easier to modify since its silhouette is comparatively simple so long as you're not posting the non-canon paddlehands picture--this being one of the few instances where the Reseen version is superior to the Unseen. Frankly, I'd take the Orion's basic silhouette and general shape as a base and take off dramatically from there. Almost a ground-up redesign. I've also seen pictures where the SRM launcher is moved from the LT to the LA, and I have to say that setup looks a lot better than its canon appearance, even if it's inferior in strictly practical terms. The Awesome and Gladiator, however, are both fantastic-looking 'Mechs. I'd swap out the Gladiator's "eyeball" head with a more defined Uziel-esque design but that's only because the sheer roundness of it breaks the flow of the lines on the rest of the torso. EDIT: Also, keep that Raven alive for at least six more turns, you know you want to. Runa fucked around with this message at 09:02 on Nov 13, 2011 |
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Nov 13, 2011 08:55
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Guitar_Hero posted:Well, 1007 also gives me a good shot at the Mongoose, so I'll give it the PPC/laser treatment (hopefully backed up by ActionZero) and you and Canopus go for the Hermes? I'll be going for the Hermes then. Edit: Orders sent Canopus250 fucked around with this message at 09:13 on Nov 13, 2011 |
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Nov 13, 2011 09:01
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I find that statement odd, since most of the heavy Clan mechs are two or more IS machines mashed together and Assaults aren't that much better.
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Nov 13, 2011 12:19
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Canopus250 posted:I'll be going for the Hermes then. Please tell me you didn't follow PTN's advice.
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Nov 13, 2011 13:03
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Defiance Industries posted:I find that statement odd, since most of the heavy Clan mechs are two or more IS machines mashed together and Assaults aren't that much better. To be fair quite a few of the IS non-Unseen heavies would be improved if you mashed them up with other 'Mechs. My take on the more well-known Clan heavies, and therefore the ones that gave me that positive impression: --The shame the Mad Cat Mk. II is actually a piece of crap literally designed in-universe as a marketing ploy to ripoff gullible Spheroid buyers --The all-energy Nova Cat looks distinct, predatory, and less awkward than the IS all-energy Black Knight, which looks like an Ostroc wearing a kettle for a hat (except when redesigned for videogames, where it looks decent). The also all-energy IS Flashman is... well, at least it plays smoothly. --The Vulture/Mad Dog has solid lines and a simple but elegant form, one whose weapons and features look proportionate to its frame (EDIT: And it also looks kind of like a gunship with legs, and that's cool). Compare it to IS missile boats of similar weight-class, and only the Catapult really holds up. I mean, we've all seen the Yeoman. EDIT: Well, again, discounting unseen. The Archer is the best missile boat heavy, hands down, but its Reseen version lacks the original's panache. --The Cauldron-Born has a terrible official name but it's basically what the Bushwhacker wishes it could be when it grows up. --The Hellbringer is basically what the Reseen Warhammer should've been. The round snowglobe head is the only thing to dislike about its design. --On the other hand the Summoner and Thunderbolt are kind of the same, and both look equally silly. Now, second-line heavies I'm not too familiar with but what I've seen of them makes them a bit of a toss-up, but the first-line Omnis are the Clans' best foot forward, design-wise. On Clan Assaults: Well, I'll admit the IS tends to have an advantage here. IS Assaults are apparently where all the design talent went and they look fantastic compared to, well, every other weight-class (where the pre-Civil War designs tended to look a little lanky and not at all convincing as giant robots). Clan Assaults tend to be more awkward-looking than lighter Clan weight-classes for some reason, but the Dire Wolf, Warhawk, Mad Cat Mk. II, Warhammer IIC, and the Stone Rhino are visually some of my favorite pre-Jihad designs. Runa fucked around with this message at 13:58 on Nov 13, 2011 |
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Nov 13, 2011 13:09
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Why is the Mad Cat Mk2 such a bad design? It looks all right on paper, certainly no worse than the Executioner or Turkina, even if it is really short on critical space.
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Nov 13, 2011 13:33
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I would have put this in an Edit but it would be kind of a substantial "Edit."an oddly awful oud posted:Why is the Mad Cat Mk2 such a bad design? It looks all right on paper, certainly no worse than the Executioner or Turkina, even if it is really short on critical space. Well, I exaggerate for humor. The Mad Cat Mk. II isn't exactly as terrible as I made it out to be, but it is pretty fragile for its weight-class, though not quite as easy to kill as, say, the Gunslinger. The Turkina is pretty sturdy in comparison, especially the Turkina A (which is the closest in role). It's also not an Omnimech, it's very clearly a second-line unit meant to be marketed towards IS buyers who know of the Mad Cat's reputation and figure any Clantech is an advantage. The Clan Gauss Rifle is also strictly inferior to, say, the Clan ER PPC. Take a Warhawk Prime and a Mad Cat Mk. II with equally skilled pilots facing off against each other in a duel/Trial. Unless the fight is taking place in terrain where the latter can put its superior jump-mobility to good use, it's probably going to lose. The Warhawk has more armor despite being ten tons lighter (Edit: Disregard that I'm a fuckwit) and it's got fewer explosive components. It's also got a Targeting Computer and more guns to bring to bear. The merchants of Clan Diamond Shark are all but forbidden from selling anything to the Inner Sphere powers that might give Spheroid "barbarians" a means to achieve parity with Clan armed forces. They are not forbidden from selling the Mad Cat Mk. II because it's widely known to be inferior to other Clan 'Mechs of comparable weight. Also, the Executioner has MASC, making it a bit faster. Runa fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Nov 13, 2011 |
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Nov 13, 2011 13:58
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Tarquinn posted:Please tell me you didn't follow PTN's advice. Oh god no, just keeping myself out of min range with the PPCs. I don't think I'm going to be trying any melee attacks unless I have no choice but to punch.
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Nov 13, 2011 14:03
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Canopus250 posted:Oh god no, just keeping myself out of min range with the PPCs. I don't think I'm going to be trying any melee attacks unless I have no choice but to punch. Excellent! 
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Nov 13, 2011 14:34
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T.G. Xarbala posted:The Warhawk has more armor despite being ten tons lighter and it's got fewer explosive components. The Warhawk is only 5 tons lighter. Also, unless I'm mistaken the unit was initially meant to be sold in Clan space (according to the wiki).
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Nov 13, 2011 14:54
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landcollector posted:The Warhawk is only 5 tons lighter. Also, unless I'm mistaken the unit was initially meant to be sold in Clan space (according to the wiki). ... Alright, I'll give you that. Though, note that those Clans that already had an ample supply of real Timber Wolves largely decided against buying the Mk II. A real Mad Cat Prime can potentially put out more damage than a Mk II, has greater ground mobility, is more versatile against different threats (setting aside the fact that it's also just one possible loadout for an Omni), and only has one less ton of armor. It's also 15 tons lighter than the Mad Cat Mk. II and this time I actually went and checked before posting. (  )
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Nov 13, 2011 15:14
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Clan gauss rifles are however a massive improvement over IS gauss rifles. (Lighter, less crits.) therefore buy up the mad cats and strip them for parts.
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Nov 13, 2011 15:29
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AtomikKrab posted:Clan gauss rifles are however a massive improvement over IS gauss rifles. (Lighter, less crits.) therefore buy up the mad cats and strip them for parts. Not really a 'massive' improvement. 3 less tons and 1 less crit is an advantage, but nothing compared to the Clans advantage in lasers or missiles. Seriously, gently caress the Clan Large Pulse Laser. Does more damage at less weight and has twice the range. KnoxZone fucked around with this message at 15:37 on Nov 13, 2011 |
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Nov 13, 2011 15:35
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Regarding the last turn, and the plucky Raven's survival, I thought I saw a couple of possible rules issues, but I don't have the current set of rules so they could have changed: 1. In the BMR you only have to make a piloting skill roll if you take 20+ points of damage in the same phase. The Orion suffering 18 points of weapons fire and a 7-point kick would not cause a PSR. 2. Wouldn't you have to roll for criticals on the Raven's left torso to see whether the ammo there was hit, even though that location was ultimately destroyed? I've always understood that you have to roll for criticals immediately when they happen, not after all the firing has come in. This matters when you have a location with ammo in it. Again, these rules might have changed, but just wanted to double-check.
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Nov 13, 2011 15:46
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T.G. Xarbala posted:... Alright, I'll give you that. I will freely acknowledge that. It is a shame, though, seeing as how the Mk II's overall design is rather nice looking. Perhaps replace the Gauss Rifles with any of the following loadouts: 1) 2x cERPPCs + extra DHSs 2) 4x cERPPCs 3) 4x cERLLs + extra DHSs 4) 4x cLPLs 5) 2x cLPLs + 2x cERPPCs Here's a take- Mad Cat Mk II variant 90 tons Movement: 4/6/3 Armor: 14 tons FF Weapons/Equipment: 2 LRM-10s, 2 tons LRM-10 ammunition, 4 ERLLs, 2 ERMLs, 2 MPLs, CASE The only real drawback imo is that this variant runs hot, very hot.
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Nov 13, 2011 15:46
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Gauss Rifles are pretty much the only weapon that the IS don't take a beating versus the clan. This is why there are so many IS mechs that carry one. It's really like Knox says, the lasers and missiles that are completely unbalanced and ill thought out.
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Nov 13, 2011 15:52
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Axe-man posted:Gauss Rifles are pretty much the only weapon that the IS don't take a beating versus the clan. This is why there are so many IS mechs that carry one. It's really like Knox says, the lasers and missiles that are completely unbalanced and ill thought out. Or one might say that they're perfectly well balanced and thought out to represent what they were intended to represent: the fact that Clan Tech is just so completely superior that if you have access to it and the double heat sinks to run it, you'd be  to buy Inner Sphere.Think of it another way: Inner Sphere Tech 1 stuff is the ubiquitous car from the USSR that was absolute poo poo but it sometimes ran and did what you wanted it to. (Or the modern-day Tata motors car for India.) IS Tech 2 is a 10-15 year old sedan, and Clan technology is a brand-new Rolls Royce. This is working as intended. ShadowDragon8685 fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Nov 13, 2011 |
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Nov 13, 2011 17:19
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Car analogies should be bannable.
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Nov 13, 2011 17:42
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Carbolic posted:Regarding the last turn, and the plucky Raven's survival, I thought I saw a couple of possible rules issues, but I don't have the current set of rules so they could have changed: I think the way this goes (although I could be wrong is): 1) you were kicked, you have a PSR. If an atlas is kicked by a locust -- PSR time!. 2) yes, criticals should have been rolled: explosions are fun! This brings up another question whose answer I may have missed. If an ammo explosion occurs, are we using the rules whereby it hurts units next to the exploding unit?
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Nov 13, 2011 17:45
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Well that car analogy patently wrong, game design is not about doing that, it is about balancing it. BV attempts to balance it, but the sheer bad design choices in the beginning are totally cause Zell was supposed to be required for clan mechs to be used. So what people did was put IS pilots in Clan mechs. Also your  isn't exactly right either but i think the important part of the discussion is:Keru posted:
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Nov 13, 2011 17:49
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ShadowDragon8685 posted:Or one might say that they're perfectly well balanced and thought out to represent what they were intended to represent: the fact that Clan Tech is just so completely superior that if you have access to it and the double heat sinks to run it, you'd be Tech 1 is your classic American gas guzzler pretty cool but inefficient. However its cheap and fairly easy to maintain yourself. Tech 2 is your modern European car its efficient and certainly an improvement on your earlier designs but its fairly bland and requires specialist knowledge to maintain. Clan tech is your Ferrari, generally superior to the regular stuff. But expensive as hell and mainly owned by pretentious rich idiots who think they are better than the regular joes. Also it requires a full and expensive team of trained mechanics to rebuild it
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Nov 13, 2011 17:50
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Keru posted:Car analogies should be bannable. Axe-man posted:Well that car analogy patently wrong, game design is not about doing that, it is about balancing it. BV attempts to balance it, but the sheer bad design choices in the beginning are totally cause Zell was supposed to be required for clan mechs to be used. So what people did was put IS pilots in Clan mechs. Car analogies may not be exactly accurate, but they allow for a person to more easily picture differences between two or more things. They might annoy you, but saying they should be bannable is unnecessary. landcollector fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Nov 13, 2011 |
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Nov 13, 2011 17:56
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landcollector posted:Car analogies may not be exactly accurate, but they allow for a person to more easily picture differences between two or more things. They may annoy you, but saying they should be bannable is unnecessary. Sarcasm detector broken again  ? You guys should really ignore the raven for right now, and focus on the fast guys, they will be able very easily get into your rear arc cause they are so drat fast. The crippled raven isn't giving the bonuses it was before, though you might have some listen-kill missles coming your way next turn.
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Nov 13, 2011 17:59
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Axe-man posted:Sarcasm detector broken again
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Nov 13, 2011 18:02
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seekerwithin posted:I think the way this goes (although I could be wrong is): If you look at the update, you can see the Orion was set to make 3 pilot checks: one for 20+ damage, one for being kicked, and one for missing a kick. Carbolic was saying the 20+ damage check shouldn't have been rolled, because even though the Orion took 25 damage total in the round, it didn't take more than 20 damage in any single phase.
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Nov 13, 2011 18:15
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landcollector posted:The Warhawk is only 5 tons lighter. Also, unless I'm mistaken the unit was initially meant to be sold in Clan space (according to the wiki). If that's the case then why go with "Mad Cat" instead of "Timber Wolf" as the official name of the mech? I mean even by Shark standards that's a pretty long way to go just to troll the other clans. There's pretty much no way they weren't thinking about marketing it in the IS right from the start.
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Nov 13, 2011 18:23
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Sam Hall posted:If that's the case then why go with "Mad Cat" instead of "Timber Wolf" as the official name of the mech? I mean even by Shark standards that's a pretty long way to go just to troll the other clans. There's pretty much no way they weren't thinking about marketing it in the IS right from the start. While you shouldn't underestimate the lengths that the Diamond Sharks will go to in order to troll the other Clans, I'm forced to agree. They were unquestionably intending to market it in the Sphere.
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Nov 13, 2011 18:35
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I always thought the Mad Cat mk2 was pretty decent, at least in Mercenaries 4. At least if you strip out the jump jets. Edit: incidently they've made a Mad Cat mk3 which is a medium mech (with an UGLY rear end MINIATURE) and... a Savage Wolf/Mad Cat Mk4, which is literally just a Timberwolf with a different body design(read, terrible). Rorac fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Nov 13, 2011 |
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Nov 13, 2011 19:15
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